Minor Warhammer 40k Revisions

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, even more of them.

This was brought up after I created the page for The Apex Twins. As you can see, the low end of their tiering is based on a specific quote often cited and repeated about Alpha Plus Psyker; "An Alpha Plus grade psyker, however, is a being of almost grotesque power. They are described as being able to "turn a man inside-out with a glance", "snap a Battle Titan in half with a flick of the wrist", and "a muttered syllable can turn an army upon itself in a frenzy of blood lust". They are capable of destroying entire worlds -- sometimes unintentionally."

So yeah. Accidental planet destruction. Incredibly casual 5-B feat. However, the Apex Twins aren't the only Alpha Plus psykers we have, on here. Eldrad Ulthra and Magnus the Red. So, easy fixes. First of all, Eldrad's low end becomes "At the very least 5-B" as opposed to "At the very least Low 5-B". This scales to Abaddon the Despoiler, who Eldrad just barely defeated (by barely, I mean there was literally only a single possible future amongst infinite ones in which Eldrad won, and he managed to pull it off).

Here's where things become a bit tricky. This obviously also applies to Magnus' low end. However, Magnus is comparable to the other Primarchs, albeit one of the strongest. So there are two options;

• Only applies to Magnus' psychic powers, and does not scale to any other Primarchs

• Since Magnus was defeated by Leman Russ, this should scale to the other Primarchs, as well. By extension, this scales to the low end of the strongest Greater Daemons, such as An'ggrath the Unbound and Skarbrand, who were shown to be on par with or above base Primarchs.

Opinions would be appreciated.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Azzy and his Warhammer fetish.....no? I'll take my leave after this. ^^;

So the Twins and Eldrad with psychic powers become 5-B (just skipping ahead of the whole tiering to that but you get what i mean). So Magnus could be scaled but there's a problem due to others.....scaling him?

 

[Promestein]

I'd be fine with all of this, really.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It basically goes like this.

>Alpha Plus level psykers can accidentally destroy world, which is very casually 5-B

>The Twins are already rated properly for this. This would need to be applied to Eldrad, and Abaddon would then scale.

>Magnus is also an Alpha Plus psyker, therefore he also scales to this.

>If we assume that this is not strictly for Magnus' psychic powers (which he can amp himself with anyway), this would also scale to the base of the other Primarchs

>By extension, this would scale to the strongest of the Greater Daemons. For instance, the Bloodthirster Ka'Bandha broke Sanguinius' legs. Characters such as An'ggrath and Skarbrand are notably superior to him.

Nothing really flat out contradicts it, though I wanted to know people's opinion on it.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I think it'd be safe enough to upgrade all of them rather then keep one upgraded like the other few i mentioned but not do it to the others....

 

[Aparajita]

I thought Magnus said that Ahzek was an Alpha Plus Psyker and that Primarchs were a step above that?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I thought Magnus said that Ahzek was an Alpha Plus Psyker and that Primarchs were a step above that?

I'm pretty certain he mentioned Ahriman being an Alpha level, which is technically on the highest end of the measurable scale, as Alpha Plus has unknown limits, making it a very wide category. Granted, Ahriman is one of the most powerful Alpha level psykers to ever live, if not the most powerful, but he's still classed as Alpha.

IIRC, there are very, very few Alpha Plus psykers we know of in the lore. Human society has only ever had the Emperor and Magnus, both of whom aren't actually regular humans, and the Apex Twins, of whom next to nothing is known about. The Apex Twins also might not be regular humans either, as there are still sightings of them more than 4,000 years after their initial escape. Granted, as such powerful psykers, they likely just have biomancy on such a level that they don't even age.

As for Xenos Alpha Plus psykers, the only one known is Eldrad, who is the greatest Farseer to ever live. So that's only four (or five, since the Apex Twins are two people) known in the universe.

 

[Aparajita]

Snip

The Codex Demons vol 2. states that "Ahrimand is the most powerful psyker the galaxy has ever produced, only being eclisped by the Greater Daemons of his patron god, Tzneecht."

Thoughts, Azzy?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Since that's in volume 2, I would highly doubt they were taking guys like Magnus and Big E into mind, or obscure characters like the Apex Twins (can't even remember if they existed or not at that time). It's also before Eldrad beating Abaddon and being considered Alpha Plus was a thing.

On top of that, "Ahriman < regular Lord of Change << strongest Lords of Change" has been changed around in massive ways since then. We have Kharn cleaving straight through a LoC, Ahriman himself besting a Shadowseer who could kill Bloodthirsters, etc. It's now presented more along the lines of "regular Lord of Change << Ahriman < strongest Lords of Change".

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Bumping this because I just now realized we never resolved it.

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps you should highlight it again?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Perhaps you should highlight it again?

I have done so.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Bippity bump.

 

[Antvasima]

I clarified the title, to get more people interested.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Aight. I can get behind this. Seems like a safe upgrade.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Well, I know next to nothing about the series but the Planet level stuff seems legit, and very casual at that. Scaling it too An'ggrath the Unbound and Skarbrand seems reasonable from the information present in the OP.

 

[Reppuzan]

I'm with Darkanine. I've only heard about the series in passing, but the feat itself seems fine from what I can tell.

As for the scaling, I can't really confirm or deny anything else, but the scaling to the Primarchs looks okay based on the reasoning provided.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I have no problems with upgrading The Apex Twins and all those that scale to them to 5-B.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Think that makes it four admins, two mods, and a regular user in support of the upgrade, so far.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, that should probably be enough then.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Alright. I shall make the changes, now.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Apologies for not replying to the thread sooner, but I agree with your decision that the Primarchs need to be upgraded.

This is because the Apex Twins are able to casually blow up planets, meaning that they can channel that energy into defensive measures as well. The fact that the Primarchs, Magnus and Leman Russ can defeat foes that are capable of this does indicate that they have Planet level attack potency.

Since Magnus should be comparable, or above the Apex Twins who can blow up Planets randomly, and since Leman Russ defeated Magnus in combat, I would think they would scale...

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Done with the revisions. Here are a few minor things I also changed due to the upgrades that I'd like to note.

Abaddo and Eldrad went from "At the very least Low 5-B, possibly up to 4-B at most" to "At the very least 5-B, likely up to 4-B at most". The reason for the first part of the rating is because Abaddon casually one-shot a perfect clone of the strongest Primarch, which means even for his low end, he should be drastically above any of the Primarchs' base forms. As for the second part, Abaddon is not only stated to be approaching Chaos Horus' glory and power, but he also forced all the Daemon Primarchs to submit to him, which means him being 4-B is definitely likely as opposed to just a possibility. Both these things scale to Eldrad, the only character in the lore to have beaten Warmaster Abaddon in combat.

Skarbrand and An'ggrath had their lower ends changed to "At the very least 5-B". The reason for this is due to a little bit of information I stumbled upon. Codex: Khorne Daemonkin explains that Bloodthirsters are organized into eight groups of "Hosts", with the First Host containing only the eight strongest Bloodthirsters, and the Eigth Host containing the weakest. Since Bloodthirsters can raise their rank by besting Bloodthirsters of higher Hosts in bloody combat, the daemon's rank at the moment is pretty much always a good representation of its power, each Host being immensely more powerful than the one below it.

Ka'bandha, the Bloodthirster who broke Sanguinius' legs, was only a member of the Third Host, putting him below the Second Host and greatly below the First Host. An'ggrath is a member of the First Host, and in his Prime, Skarbrand was the strongest of the First Host. Because of this, I changed their lower ends to reflect that even taking both the Primarchs and their own weaker ratings into account, they should both be an incredible magnitude above base Primarchs.

 

[Lina_Shields]

@Azzy: If the statement about Abaddon approaching Chaos Horus is considered true, keep in mind that Chaos Horus is rated "At least 4-B, likely higher" for being able to take on the God Emperor in combat. This would mean that it is not entirely unreasonable for Abaddon's rating to be written as:

• Tier: At the very least 5-B, likely 4-B

This is because 4-B is a very category, and if Chaos-empowered Horus is sitting in that category, it is very likely that Abaddon is reaching that level in AP as well.

Also, if Ka'dbanha is comparable to the Primarchs via scaling form Sanguinius, and if the first host daemons such as Skarbrand and An'ggrath is that much stronger compared to Ka'dbanha, would by any chance could the two scale to Abaddon and Eldrad as well? This would mean that their tiering is changed to:

• Tier: At the very least 5-B, likely 4-B

This is because the gap between the first host and the third host daemons could be as wide as the gap between Abaddon and the Primarchs. Abaddon being able to casually defeat Horus, one of the strongest Primarchs, is an example of this.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I think the Abaddon and Eldrad thing is reasonable. Abaddon is suggested to be above the Daemon Primarchs, and Eldrad is the most powerful psyker in Eldar history...in a race where every single individual is a psyker.

As for the second, since it is less concrete, perhaps "At the very least 5-B, probably 4-B" for An'ggrath and Skarbrand?

 

[Lina_Shields]

Well, the reason I used likely instead of probably is that the word probably is actually not allowed to be used according to the editing guidelines.

However, if you feel that probably is a better word, I am okay with this decision.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

In this case, it is just that "probably" I feel would be the best word to use to be on the safe side, even though we traditionally don't do so. However, "likely" would not be wrong in any sense, and thus I am not exactly opposed to using it.

 

[Antvasima]

What about "Possibly"?

 

[Lina_Shields]

The word "possibly" is currently used by the Primarchs and lower tier Daemons. However, Abaddon, Eldrad, and Skarbrand/An'ggrath are >>> in power in comparison to the Primarchs and lower tier Daemons.

Hence, the word "possibly" would not do them enough justice.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Like I said, I'm on board with removing the "up to" and "at most" from Abby and Eldrad's profiles. I'm just not sure what wording would be best for Skarbrand and An'ggrath.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Bumping this so we can resolve the last few posts.

 

[Lina_Shields]

In any case, I am in agreement with the term "likely" as that is the proper word to use when he/she is very much implied to have a certain level of AP in a profile.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So would something like this be best?

Abaddon and Eldrad: "At the very least 5-B, likely 4-B"

Skarbrand and An'ggrath: "At the very least 5-B, likely up to 4-B"

Or shouldy Abby and Eldrad have something additional added, since Chaos Horus is technically "At least 4-B"?

 

[Lina_Shields]

The above example looks good to me. You may add something about Abby and Eldrad in their profiles if you wish.

We don't really know how much Eldrad/Abaddon was weaker compared to Horus anyways.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Alright. I will do so.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I have made the changes. Let me know if they look acceptable.

Also, I have added a "possibly Massively FTL+" to Abaddon and Eldrad's reaction speeds, since it is possible Abaddon would scale to Chaos Horus' speed, as well.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Now I am wondering, what extent of Massively FTL+ does Abaddon/Eldrad fall under? Billions? Trillions?

Would they be comparable to the God Emperor in terms of speed?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Not sure, as most MFTL+ feats in the verse are hard to properly quantify.

In fact, one of the easiest I can think of is an absurdly weakened shard of the Nightbringer travelling seventy thousand light years in an unspecified period of time between like a minute and a month or two.