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Minor Tubal Cain revision

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Tarang123 said:
It wouldn't, tho. He just needs to be so ridiculously powerful that he can actually keep up with or overpower them. Also, that whole (1 Taikyoku >>>>) thing is not as strong as you might think as Satanael, without even being a god, was able to erase Muzan without any kind of divine ability, just by using Astaroth, who doesn't even have Sin. So...the avatar argument still works. Mercurius is so ridiculously above Ren and Reinhard that a mere shade of him is stronger than them as well.
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That seems kinda inconsistent with how gods are portrayed but idk anything abour paralost. Anyway I’ll wait to see, pain’s opinion once he goes through it again. This thread should honestly just be applied, you should ask ant.
 
catzlaflame said:
That seems kinda inconsistent with how gods are portrayed but idk anything abour paralost. Anyway I’ll wait to see, pain’s opinion once he goes through it again. This thread should honestly just be applied, you should ask ant.
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It's true that divinity is usually only stopped by divinity, but Satanael's case is a pretty weird one, but Taikyoku isn't necessary. You'd just need some kind of divine power, which is why Ryuumei is able to keep up with Momiji despite not having any Taikyoku and stuff like that.
 
Tarang123 said:
Satanael, without even being a god, was able to erase Muzan
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Satanael WAS literally a god when he killed Muzan. He first turned himself into a God then later on retconned Muzan because he wasn't strong enough to fight him 1v1.

Avesta honestly has given more evidence on why Peeps with divinity will always be >> peeps without divinity.
 
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Odinson said:
Satanael WAS literally a god when he killed Muzan. He first turned himself into a God then later on retconned Muzan because he wasn't strong enough to fight him 1v1.

Avesta honestly has given more evidence on why Peeps with divinity will always be >> peeps without divinity.
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From what I remember, that's literally not at all what happened. He just retcons himself from existence, which leads to Muzan being retconned from existence as well, so really this argument doesn't work. Now, divinity can only be stopped by divinity, this much is true. But divinity is fairly vague and isn't the same as Taikyoku itself. For example, the Ryuumei and Niko and Teirei example I brought up earlier. Neither of the two have Taikyoku, but are able to affect beings of Taikyoku. Merely having divinity of some degree is enough to reach such power, which is why even a Pseudo-god like Habaki was able to keep up with Yato (at least, I'm pretty sure Habaki was a pseudo-god)
 
Tarang123 said:
He just retcons himself from existence, which leads to Muzan being retconned from existence as well, so really this argument doesn't work
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This is so wrong I don't know what to say. Satanael first made Ast willingly invoke Astaroth which ends up erasing his existence and creates a parallel world where he (satanael) was not a human but a God. Then he uses the tree of sefirot (this isn't singularity) to reach the throne and eliminates Muzan. Paradise lost ending is more clear on this than Saoshyant Desatir.


Tarang123 said:
Now, divinity can only be stopped by divinity, this much is true. But divinity is fairly vague and isn't the same as Taikyoku itself
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I am not saying that. I just said those with divinity are stronger than those without it.


Tarang123 said:
which is why even a Pseudo-god like Habaki was able to keep up with Yato (at least, I'm pretty sure Habaki was a pseudo-god
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???? Habaki was never a Psuedo god. He only became a legit god after taking in his "main body" and became a Gudō because his craving was always of that nature . During that fight he was powered up by Tumor from hajun and then beats up Yato and before that he was getting clapped. I wouldn't call that 'habaki became a Psuedo god after the tumor amp" tbh.
 
This is so wrong I don't know what to say. Satanael first made Ast willingly invoke Astaroth which ends up erasing his existence and creates a parallel world where he (satanael) was not a human but a God. Then he uses the tree of sefirot (this isn't singularity) to reach the throne and eliminates Muzan. Paradise lost ending is more clear on this than Saoshyant Desatir.
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Mb, it's been a few years since I read Paradise Lost, so I decided to start re-reading it. Still haven't gotten there yet.

I am not saying that. I just said those with divinity are stronger than those without it.
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I didn't deny it, I was merely saying that you don't need Taikyoku to be divine, so the thing is a bit vague in general

???? Habaki was never a Psuedo god. He only became a legit god after taking in his "main body" and became a Gudō because his craving was always of that nature . During that fight he was powered up by Tumor from hajun and then beats up Yato and before that he was getting clapped. I wouldn't call that 'habaki became a Psuedo god after the tumor amp" tbh.
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He actually was a Pseudo-god, which is actually pointed out on the God physiology page. He only becomes a legit god later.

Also, just a minor question, but have you, by any chance, already read K3?
 
Tarang123 said:
Mb, it's been a few years since I read Paradise Lost, so I decided to start re-reading it. Still haven't gotten there yet
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Even the fight was never shown in PL. We just know very little of what happened and what we know proves that Satanael first became a god then kills Muzan. So saying 'a non god satanael killed god Muzan' is wrong.

Tarang123 said:
Also, just a minor question, but have you, by any chance, already read K3?
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No, I was spoiled for some parts on spacebattles though. Will start reading it soon.
 
No, I was spoiled for some parts on spacebattles though. Will start reading it soon.
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Interesting, I'd recommend it, it's pretty interesting with the part that I'm on now
 
???? Habaki was never a Psuedo god. He only became a legit god after taking in his "main body" and became a Gudō because his craving was always of that nature . During that fight he was powered up by Tumor from hajun and then beats up Yato and before that he was getting clapped. I wouldn't call that 'habaki became a Psuedo god after the tumor amp" tbh.
Click to expand...

Just addressing this again, I never said that Habaki became a god right after the amp or even because of it, he becomes an actual god due to actually gaining his own Taikyoku, which was Shoko Mandala - Yaoyorozu and his shared one with Rindou, Amaterasu. Before that, he had the Teratoma's craving, which was to stay alive and to not die, which was manifested in his distortion, but it wasn't his own Taikyoku, which he never once showed in the entire fight against Yato.
 
Tarang123 said:
It wouldn't, tho. He just needs to be so ridiculously powerful that he can actually keep up with or overpower them. Also, that whole (1 Taikyoku >>>>) thing is not as strong as you might think as Satanael, without even being a god, was able to erase Muzan without any kind of divine ability, just by using Astaroth, who doesn't even have Sin. So...the avatar argument still works. Mercurius is so ridiculously above Ren and Reinhard that a mere shade of him is stronger than them as well.
Click to expand...
The Divine power needed is not some sort but a somewhat equal divine power, Astaroth can draw on the power of quintesence, Ryuumei Shura Mandala is more powerful than morei taikyoku.Well you can argue the whole merc shade thing more powerful than Ren and Reinhard but that wont be true after they achieved hadou hood and reached the throne to fight merc.
Tarang123 said:
From what I remember, that's literally not at all what happened. He just retcons himself from existence, which leads to Muzan being retconned from existence as well, so really this argument doesn't work. Now, divinity can only be stopped by divinity, this much is true. But divinity is fairly vague and isn't the same as Taikyoku itself. For example, the Ryuumei and Niko and Teirei example I brought up earlier. Neither of the two have Taikyoku, but are able to affect beings of Taikyoku. Merely having divinity of some degree is enough to reach such power, which is why even a Pseudo-god like Habaki was able to keep up with Yato (at least, I'm pretty sure Habaki was a pseudo-god)
Click to expand...

He became a god actually but he cannot fight muzan one on one so he tried creating beings without original sin and created a a time paradox BS, anyway masada himself said he wants to re do PL and i also just skimmed through PL, but now i should go and read it again while waiting and doing nothing, maybe i can create more pages for the characters.
Niko and terrei character card said they are as strong as their Dies irae counterpart and they also have shura mandala, basically Shura mandala is reinhard shticks
Habaki did not keep up with yato before he was boosted by the tumor, he was ragdolled and killed but he keeps reviving due to his distortion which is also divinity
Tarang123 said:
which was manifested in his distortion, but it wasn't his own Taikyoku, which he never once showed in the entire fight against Yato
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He actually did show this in his fight against yato, he came back after yato killed him and reflected yato's attacks
 
My point was Habaki wasn't a Psuedo god, because he didn't achieve Godhood. Psuedo gods are merely those who achieve Godhood not by themselves, but with a connection to another god. Saying Habaki was a Psuedo god in that fight is saying he had already achieved Godhood because of his connection to someone which I don't agree with.
 
Pain_to12 said:
The Divine power needed is not some sort but a somewhat equal divine power, Astaroth can draw on the power of quintesence, Ryuumei Shura Mandala is more powerful than morei taikyoku.Well you can argue the whole merc shade thing more powerful than Ren and Reinhard but that wont be true after they achieved hadou hood and reached the throne to fight merc.


He became a god actually but he cannot fight muzan one on one so he tried creating beings without original sin and created a a time paradox BS, anyway masada himself said he wants to re do PL and i also just skimmed through PL, but now i should go and read it again while waiting and doing nothing, maybe i can create more pages for the characters.
Niko and terrei character card said they are as strong as their Dies irae counterpart and they also have shura mandala, basically Shura mandala is reinhard shticks
Habaki did not keep up with yato before he was boosted by the tumor, he was ragdolled and killed but he keeps reviving due to his distortion which is also divinity

He actually did show this in his fight against yato, he came back after yato killed him and reflected yato's attacks
Click to expand...
Quintessence isn’t divine. It was made by satanael.

also, that was habaki’s distortion
 
Pain_to12 said:
The Divine power needed is not some sort but a somewhat equal divine power, Astaroth can draw on the power of quintesence, Ryuumei Shura Mandala is more powerful than morei taikyoku.Well you can argue the whole merc shade thing more powerful than Ren and Reinhard but that wont be true after they achieved hadou hood and reached the throne to fight merc.


He became a god actually but he cannot fight muzan one on one so he tried creating beings without original sin and created a a time paradox BS, anyway masada himself said he wants to re do PL and i also just skimmed through PL, but now i should go and read it again while waiting and doing nothing, maybe i can create more pages for the characters.
Niko and terrei character card said they are as strong as their Dies irae counterpart and they also have shura mandala, basically Shura mandala is reinhard shticks
Habaki did not keep up with yato before he was boosted by the tumor, he was ragdolled and killed but he keeps reviving due to his distortion which is also divinity

He actually did show this in his fight against yato, he came back after yato killed him and reflected yato's attacks
Click to expand...
Odinson said:
My point was Habaki wasn't a Psuedo god, because he didn't achieve Godhood. Psuedo gods are merely those who achieve Godhood not by themselves, but with a connection to another god. Saying Habaki was a Psuedo god in that fight is saying he had already achieved Godhood because of his connection to someone which I don't agree with.
Click to expand...
I never said that habaki never achieved godhood. It’s just that he doesn’t have actual taikyoku until much later. Kind of like ryuumei. He gets power from the tumor’s mandala if I’m not mistaken
 
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Where do y’all even find about about paralost shit🗿 is it like a forum or sum, if so som1 be a dear and slide the link
 
Tarang123 said:
Pretty sure he’s gotten farther than that? When did you last check?
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I checked just now and people in the comments of the last vid said it was the end of the second chapter
 
I can’t really find the place where I originally read paralost. Maybe you should ask Pain to 12
 
Anyway, we’re derailing again, so stuff should just be implemented. I recently messaged ant, so…ye
 
Pain_to12 said:
it literally originated from keter and Judecca, you know the throne

you said he never used his distortion against yato and that is wrong
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Also, quintessence is made by satanael as the 5th DNA element, it’s not like sin, which is a genuinely divine thing, seeing as sin comes directly from muzan. Also, where did you read paradise lost from?
 
Tarang123 said:
Also, quintessence is made by satanael as the 5th DNA element, it’s not like sin, which is a genuinely divine thing, seeing as sin comes directly from muzan. Also, where did you read paradise lost from?
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Quintessence are used by angel they come directly from the abyss and again it does not really matter angels and anti angels cannot be hurt by anything that does not come from the throne and Quintessence hurts them

i have the files to paralost and KKK, the text files so you can translate them with MLT
 
Pain_to12 said:
Quintessence are used by angel they come directly from the abyss and again it does not really matter angels and anti angels cannot be hurt by anything that does not come from the throne and Quintessence hurts them

i have the files to paralost and KKK, the text files so you can translate them with MLT
Click to expand...
Aren’t angels directly made by nerose? They don’t function like how sin users do.
 
Tarang123 said:
Aren’t angels directly made by nerose? They don’t function like how sin users do.
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they come from abyss the deepest part of the throne iirc, yes they are way higher than sin users and can only be harmed by Higher Ds, and they cannot even interact with the world except through an avatar
 
Pain_to12 said:
they come from abyss the deepest part of the throne iirc, yes they are way higher than sin users and can only be harmed by Higher Ds, and they cannot even interact with the world except through an avatar
Click to expand...
Saying that Quintessence users draw power from the Throne seems like massive downplay to Lyle, who basically seems like the only character that directly draws power from the Throne, so that doesn't really make much sense. They definitely draw power from higher dimensions, but I wouldn't put it as "divine".
 
Tarang123 said:
Saying that Quintessence users draw power from the Throne seems like massive downplay to Lyle, who basically seems like the only character that directly draws power from the Throne, so that doesn't really make much sense. They definitely draw power from higher dimensions, but I wouldn't put it as "divine".
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Positive Quintessence​

Quintessence used by Angels, by accessing through the gate of heaven, they can draw out the fifth element from higher Sephiroth, originated from Keter. However, due to Satanael control over the leylines, Angels require his permission to use Quintessence, via equation "Access—Master".

Negative Quintessence​

Negative Quintessence, or commonly known as Original Sin or Sin of Adam. Originating from the Abyss of Judecca. It is a wavelength inverse of the world. Demons themselves, while hostless, are made out of negative quintessence. As the general rule of the fallen paradise where evil reigns, negative quintessence is stronger than its positive counterpart.

Demons equation is "Access—My Sin".
Click to expand...
 
Oh, alr. I'd recommend using scans from the actual series, but this is alr. However, could you send me the files for Paradise Lost and K3?
 
What are the conclusions here so far?
 
Basically:

Cain needs type 6 immortality (but it isn't combat applicable)

Marie's all types immortality negation needs to be added back (for now)
 
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