Minor Tubal Cain revision

[Tarang123]

So, this thread is a bit simple. On Cain's profile, there are some things for his immortality, but he doesn't have Type 6 for some reason.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...607451/Screenshot_20200605-151510_YouTube.jpg

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...588318/Screenshot_20200605-151601_YouTube.jpg

I already showed this in the Shinza Revival Thread, which is in the Fun and Games Section (for some reason).

So, in addition to Cain having Type 6 Immortality, Marie's Immortality Negation would go back to All types. If this revision is rejected, then even Ren's immortality negation shouldn't be marked as All Types. I'd also ask if we could specify what kinds of immortality Scherzo negates.

 

[azontr]

I obviously agree with this.

 

[QuasiYuri]

It's more them getting corrupted rather than an actual immortality so I'm neutral.

Also weren't negation of type 5 and 9 supposed to get removed...?

 

[azontr]

I mean, I agree with the sentiment that it's immortality, but is it even combat applicable? It only works with Sakurai's from what I'm looking at.

 

[Tarang123]

I mean, I agree with the sentiment that it's immortality, but is it even combat applicable? It only works with Sakurai's from what I'm looking at.

Well, that's not too relevant, but it's still immortality, so...

 

[Tarang123]

It's more them getting corrupted rather than an actual immortality so I'm neutral.

Also weren't negation of type 5 and 9 supposed to get removed...?

I mean...you can make a separate CRT for that if you want

 

[azontr]

Well, that's not too relevant, but it's still immortality, so...

Yeah, but it's so useless now that I realize lol

 

[PrinceofPein]

So, this thread is a bit simple. On Cain's profile, there are some things for his immortality, but he doesn't have Type 6 for some reason.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...607451/Screenshot_20200605-151510_YouTube.jpg

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...588318/Screenshot_20200605-151601_YouTube.jpg

I already showed this in the Shinza Revival Thread, which is in the Fun and Games Section (for some reason).

So, in addition to Cain having Type 6 Immortality, Marie's Immortality Negation would go back to All types. If this revision is rejected, then even Ren's immortality negation shouldn't be marked as All Types. I'd also ask if we could specify what kinds of immortality Scherzo negates.

I agree with all
Also Scherzo should affect all type that Marie can affect except 5 and 9 since he can kill LDO members and also affect reinhard vahalla.

Also weren't negation of type 5 and 9 supposed to get removed...?

There is still a valid type 5 in the verse merc, although the type 9 should be removed cause killing the shades or sensor of merc going to affect the actual merc
Edit: yeah type 9 is valid, merc sensor touching her in the twilight beach was going to also kill him

 

[Catzlaflame]

i agree with yuri’s point but it’s still true that this still sustains they’re souls…. So I agree with the op but we could add right after that it isnt battle applicable

 

[Tarang123]

i agree with yuri’s point but it’s still true that this still sustains they’re souls…. So I agree with the op but we could add right after that it isnt battle applicable

Yeah, I agree that it doesn't seem very combat applicable, but it should still count as type 6.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I agree with all
Also Scherzo should affect all type that Marie can affect except 5 and 9 since he can kill LDO members and also affect reinhard vahalla.

It is limited to the dead tho.

There is still a valid type 5 in the verse merc, although the type 9 should be removed cause killing the shades or sensor of merc going to affect the actual merc
Edit: yeah type 9 is valid, merc sensor touching her in the twilight beach was going to also kill him

It was the true Mercurius. His sensory can't go to the Twilight Beach to begin with iirc.

 

[PrinceofPein]

It is limited to the dead tho.

Yes also we should specify the regen he is negating with it

It was the true Mercurius. His sensory can't go to the Twilight Beach to begin with iirc.

Well, I am going through Dies Irae again I will see what I can find in like a week or two or three when I finish it

 

[Tarang123]

It is limited to the dead tho.

It was the true Mercurius. His sensory can't go to the Twilight Beach to begin with iirc.

Don't they refer to that Mercurius as a shade anyway? And, while I don't like the anime, it does portray it as a sensory in the Twilight Beach as well.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Don't they refer to that Mercurius as a shade anyway? And, while I don't like the anime, it does portray it as a sensory in the Twilight Beach as well.

Isn't the anime adaptating Marie route? Ngl this one I never remember shit.

 

[azontr]

Isn't the anime adaptating Marie route? Ngl this one I never remember shit.

Yeah, its Marie Route. A shitty dumbed-down version of Marie Route, but it's Marie Route.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Yes I have the anime right in front of me and it is a sensory merc.
So quick question axe type 9 Marie Immo neg on her profile or use anime as justification?

Yeah I go with axxing the type 9 neg on Marie profile

 

[PrinceofPein]

Jokes aside I actually do believe we should wait till maybe when I reach that part of the VN, I will take screenshots and necessary scans

 

[Tarang123]

Isn't the anime adaptating Marie route? Ngl this one I never remember shit.

Yeah, it was

 

[Tarang123]

Yes I have the anime right in front of me and it is a sensory merc.
So quick question axe type 9 Marie Immo neg profile or use anime as justification?

Yeah I go with axxing the type 9 neg on Marie profile

Why can't Marie neg type 9, again? I don't think it would apply to Ren, but I'd assume that Marie can neg it seeing as she was clearly able to in both the anime and VN, so there's no reason to remove the negation of type 9

 

[PrinceofPein]

Do u have scans of the VN?

 

[Catzlaflame]

Do u have scans of the VN?

Of what specifically ?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Of what specifically ?

the merc and marie twilight space and why it is sensory merc. i am trying to go through the VN again to find it but if u do please send

 

[Tarang123]

the merc and marie twilight space and why it is sensory merc. i am trying to go through the VN again to find it but if u do please send

I believe they imply that it's merely a shade of Mercurius, and mercurius even refers to himself as a shade. And the anime does seem to imply that Mercurius's true form was in the throne the whole time.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I believe they imply that it's merely a shade of Mercurius, and mercurius even refers to himself as a shade. And the anime does seem to imply that Mercurius's true form was in the throne the whole time.

So we use the anime (Rolls eyes) with VN?
Or we can wait till we are sure?

 

[Tarang123]

So we use the anime (Rolls eyes) with VN?
Or we can wait till we are sure?

I literally just said that the VN implies that it's his shade with further evidence that the "narrator" namedrops him as Cagliostro and even mercurius's own statement of being a shade. I was just using the anime as further evidence.

 

[Tarang123]

Anyway, we're kind of derailing here, but I think we have a common consensus to add some kind of Type 6 Immortality to Cain, put Marie's Immortality Negation at All Types again (for now), and make Shinza Tier 0 cause...ye

But, in all seriousness, we should get back on topic

 

[Catzlaflame]

the merc and marie twilight space and why it is sensory merc. i am trying to go through the VN again to find it but if u do please send

Personally I’m starting to think it actually was true self Mercerius. First there is this which essentially kinda states it,

also we know he stops an atziluth ren and Reinhard, so if that was his sensory then we would need to give his sensory a 1-B key as well (for stopping them), which makes no sense since the purpose of a sensory is to let a god interact with non-gods so if that was his sensory he shouldent have been able to stop them.

Or it could just be one of the things, Masada didn’t give much thought about cus they’re are a bunch of contradictions between routes, like how shirou dies at the end of kasumi when ren was still alive in the hospital

It was the true Mercurius. His sensory can't go to the Twilight Beach to begin with iirc.

He has been shown to, when Marie gets destroyed by machina and goes back to twilight and he helps shirou get her back and that shit in kei:

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com

And after it says his consciousness returned to gladsheim:

Gyazo

gyazo.com

 

[Tarang123]

Personally I’m starting to think it actually was true self Mercerius. First there is this which essentially kinda states it,

also we know he stops an atziluth ren and Reinhard, so if that was his sensory then we would need to give his sensory a 1-B key as well (for stopping them), which makes no sense since the purpose of a sensory is to let a god interact with non-gods so if that was his sensory he shouldent have been able to stop them.

Or it could just be one of the things, Masada didn’t give much thought about cus they’re are a bunch of contradictions between routes, like how shirou dies at the end of kasumi when ren was still alive in the hospital

He has been shown to, when Marie gets destroyed by machina and goes back to twilight and he helps shirou get her back and that shit in kei:

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com

And after it says his consciousness returned to gladsheim:

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Then again, Mercurius still refers to himself as a shade in the same scene (albeit, that's likely because he wanted to correct Marie and was telling her that he wasn't actually omnipotent)

 

[PrinceofPein]

Personally I’m starting to think it actually was true self Mercerius. First there is this which essentially kinda states it,

What was stated was that he has become aware of merc true nature I.e? What Atziluth truly is, not that merc was present

also we know he stops an atziluth ren and Reinhard, so if that was his sensory then we would need to give his sensory a 1-B key as well (for stopping them)

Sensors do become 1B and have 1B feats throughout the series you know that right?

, which makes no sense since the purpose of a sensory is to let a god interact with non-gods so if that was his sensory he shouldent have been able to stop them.

Or it could just be one of the things, Masada didn’t give much thought about cus they’re are a bunch of contradictions between routes, like how shirou dies at the end of kasumi when ren was still alive in the hospital

Actually sensories is not to interact with non gods per say but to interact with the universe cause the actual throne god can not exactly directly leave the throne.


But well anyone works

 

[Odinson]

Personally I’m starting to think it actually was true self Mercerius. First there is this which essentially kinda states it,

It was his true form. Later when Marie was about to 1 shot him, it was heavily implied that it was his true form and that killing him would not destroy the world he had emanated, as they were inside the Singularity.

"Slowly, gently, and with notable trembling, it closed in on the creator of the world of foreknowledge"

"His smile gleamed with supreme joy that might as well have been pride. The man was exceedingly satisfied with all the events that had let up to this conclusion"

"If I die here, no one will be affected by my demise. Go on, Marguerite, grant me the unknown of death"

"Moments before she touched him, Mercurius -- Assured of his victory -- uttered something in a joyous manner"

(Almost done with Dies Irae and then I'll read KKK)

 

[Catzlaflame]

What was stated was that he has become aware of merc true nature I.e? What Atziluth truly is, not that merc was present

Ye theyres nothing that DIRECTLY states it is true self mercerius or only his sensory, but that was the closest thing I found

Sensors do become 1B and have 1B feats throughout the series you know that right?
Actually sensories is not to interact with non gods per say but to interact with the universe cause the actual throne god can not exactly directly leave the throne

Yea, cus a gods “weight” becomes to heavy for the world and shit because of they’re emnatation.

So why would a sensory even be needed, if it also has emanation?
Cus anyone with atziluth is to “heavy” for the world. And if they created sensories to interact with the world then why would it have theyre emanation it ruins the point. But if it is the case then we should make sensory mercerius key “from 3-A to 1-B” ig

and infera said that the throne god can move in the singularity.

 

[Tarang123]

Ye theyres nothing that DIRECTLY states it is true self mercerius or only his sensory, but that was the closest thing I found

Yea, cus a gods “weight” becomes to heavy for the world and shit because of they’re emnatation.

So why would a sensory even be needed, if it also has emanation?
Cus anyone with atziluth is to “heavy” for the world. And if they created sensories to interact with the world then why would it have theyre emanation it ruins the point. But if it is the case then we should make sensory mercerius key “from 3-A to 1-B” ig

and infera said that the throne god can move in the singularity.

I doubt a sensory has emanation. I just think a god can regulate the strength of their sensories

 

[Catzlaflame]

I doubt a sensory has emanation.

yea I think so to, what I’m saying is that if it was sensory merc in the end of Marie route. then he would need atziluth to have stopped ren and rein.

 

[Tarang123]

yea I think so to, what I’m saying is that if it was sensory merc in the end of Marie route. then he would need atziluth to have stopped ren and rein.

Well, that's not necessarily true. Thing is, Mercurius's true form or just Throne god Merc is far stronger than Ren or Reinhard here, so him making a sensory on their level isn't too hard to believe

 

[Tarang123]

Bump

 

[Tarang123]

Bump

 

[Tarang123]

Bump

 

[Tarang123]

Bump

 

[Catzlaflame]

Well, that's not necessarily true. Thing is, Mercurius's true form or just Throne god Merc is far stronger than Ren or Reinhard here, so him making a sensory on their level isn't too hard to believe

ye but his sensory would need to be able to emanate to be comparable to another emanation. No matter how strong one is without emanation someone with even
1 taiji >>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[Tarang123]

ye but his sensory would need to be able to emanate to be comparable to another emanation. No matter how strong one is without emanation someone with even
1 taiji >>>>>>>>>>>>>

It wouldn't, tho. He just needs to be so ridiculously powerful that he can actually keep up with or overpower them. Also, that whole (1 Taikyoku >>>>) thing is not as strong as you might think as Satanael, without even being a god, was able to erase Muzan without any kind of divine ability, just by using Astaroth, who doesn't even have Sin. So...the avatar argument still works. Mercurius is so ridiculously above Ren and Reinhard that a mere shade of him is stronger than them as well.