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Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot

VS Battles
Retired VSB Bureaucrat
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No, this is not about trying to downgrade Dark Nebula. However, it does have to do with him.

Dark Nebula has the single best feat in the Kirby-verse so far that is consistent with the series' overall stellar range of power. Kirby and the vast majority of the verse's high tiers are scaled to him under the assumption that base Kirby > Dark Nebula. This is not true.

Kirby defeats Dark Nebula by using the Triple Star Cane. While you can technically win the fight without this item by losing it in the segment prior, the fact that it is given to Kirby as the main "kill the bad guy of the week" mcguffin automatically in the scene after the Dark Daroach fight suggest this to be the canon weapon of choice for the final battle. I'm also fairly certain the 20th Anniversary guide makes reference to such a thing. This would suggest that while somewhat comparable, Dark Nebula should be above Kirby's normal level.

Then there's the fact that 02 is listed as having created Dark Nebula, which is blatantly false. First of all, the original 0 is the progenitor of all Dark Matter, not 02. Second, the guide never even says Dark Nebula is a member of the Dark Matter race. It says something along the lines of it being "alligned to the Dark Matter invaders", which it also says about 0 and 02. It also mentions that it and 02's connection to the original 0 are unknown, though evidence suggests 02 is the reincarnated form of 0, as he is quite literally the second 0.

Speaking of which, Dark Nebula is heavily suggested to be the third incarnation of 0. For starters, Dark Nebula is an American only name. The entity's name in Japan is "Dakuzero", which is literally "Dark 0". Then there's the fact that the text at the end which calls it the "ruler of the underworld" is a mistranslation, and the proper Japanese text is literally "Lord of the Dark". As in, Lord of the Dark Matter. Which is exactly what 0 and 02 were. This would also explain why he was so strong, and why Kirby would need the Triple Star Cane to defeat him.

In closing, I think these minor changes should probably be made.

  • Kirby and those who are scaled directly to him should lose the "At least" before the 4-A. Several villains in the series have shown to be more powerful than him, including the one he is scaled from. He needed the Crystal Shards to beat 02 (who was completely impervious to Kirby's attacks otherwise), he needed the Miracle Fruit to beat Dreamstalk Sectonia (who was going to kill him), and as I pointed out, he almost certainly needed the Triple Star Cane to beat Dark Nebula/Dark 0. Character's such as Dark Nebula, 02, and Dreamstalk Sectonia, who are shown to be superior to base Kirby by a sizable amount, will keep the "At least".
  • 02's stat reasoning should be changed. He should be "At least 4-A" for being comparable to Dark Nebula (who should probably be mentioned is likely another manifestation of 0) and being superior to Kirby.
  • Kirby's 4-A should be for being in the same general league as guys like Dark Nebula and 02, because as I said, he didn't fully tank Dark Nebula's energy wave under his own power (he had the Triple Star Cane, which provides a barrier), and was easily wounded when Dark Nebula actually focused attacks on him.
  • Less related to the rest of the blog, but base Claycia should be nowhere near 4-A. Her absolute best feat is Low 4-B at best, and it's not like she fought a serious Kirby when not possessed by Dark Crafter, who should be significantly stronger than her.
 
I agree with everything. But I believe that the at least comes from the small possibility of Magolor scaling. Not entirely sure though. On a related note, shouldn't Kirby (or at least Dark Nebula) be high 4-A for destroying half a galaxy in a power-up attack?
 
The "Super Abilities" thing on his page should be sufficient for that, so he is fine without the "At least", imo. Especially since if that were the case, we'd have to scale people like Sectonia to Magolor.

I don't think we have High 4-A. That'd just be labelled as "Multi-Solar System+".
 
Fair enough. I just thought I saw discussion about GT characters getting high 4-A and thought it came back. Anyway, should MSS+ suffice for Zero, DN, and the main 4?

Actually, should Bandana Waddle Dee be scaled to the main cast or Claycia?
 
MSS+ should be fine for the main 4. 02 and Dark Nebula should probably keep the "At least".

I...don't know, actually. Maybe?
 
Whoops. I meant at least MSS+ for the one-eyed villains. Also, should original 0 be a tabber or it's own profile? Like is it a Flowey/Omega Flowey situation or a Flowey/Asriel situation?
 
Maybe? He could probably get his own profile, too. Either way is fine really, since they're sometimes treated as distinct enough entities to warrant it.
 
The (+) is only used when a calculation denotes the higher end of a tier. Considering Kirby is already listed At Least MSS, this won't result in any particular change in tiering.

I have no problems with the suggestions, except for the last where it's never explained why the feat of destroying a part of a parallel Universe doesn't warrant MSS level (for those not familiar with the franchise); doesn't she have a calc? What was the value?
 
Claycia should be "At least 4-A" because that's how big Seventopia is at the very least, as we see lots of star systems and celestial bodies fly by during the battle with Dark Crafter, and since that's going by just what we se, then that means there's the possibility of it being higher, so it should be "At least 4-A". Plus Dark Crafter was the one who possessed Claycia, and Kirby defeated both of them (The former by reflecting her attacks back, the latter by ramming into him three times).
 
I think that this seems reasonable, but will ask Fastsword88 and Unclechairman for input here.
 
@AN

Seventopia is not the universe itself. Seventopia is defined literally as only the seven planets the game takes place on, which is what Claycia created.
 
The suggestions seem fine to me. I didn't know that Dark Nebula is the possible 03, that's nice input. However I'd like to point out a few things :

- Base Kirby isn't weaker than DN or 02. In fact, the whole idea of Kirby getting stronger with final weapons isn't actually true, proven by Star Dream in the latest game. Kirby uses the Robobot Armor in the final battle, which might give the false idea that the armor is stronger than Kirby, but after the boss blows up on both of them, the armor is wrecked almost beyond repair while Kirby has no scratch on him.

- Kirby isn't weaker than Sectonia either. The only reason she seemed to give him trouble is when he let his guard off in the cutscene where she briefly passes out. When he directly fights her, she's no match. Hypernova doesn't increase physical stats either, it's more of a hax ability (boosts his attack reflection ability). And most importantly, Sectonia's true last and strongest form, "Sectonia Soul" is defeated by base Kirby.

- Base Kirby can also push the multi-star devouring wave (and is the only one of the main 4 who can). So he's definitely well above DDD or Meta.

So maybe Kirby also deserves the "At least" along with the other 2 top tiers ?
 
I'd say base Kirby is definitely below 02 and quite possibly below DN, as well. 02 tanks his attacks like nothing, and Kirby needs to use the Crystal Shards and exploitable weaknesses to significantly harm it. I don't think the Robobot Armor being < Kirby means all final weapons are.

Base Sectonia is definitely weaker than Kirby (but should likely be above Dedede), as he didn't have too much of an issue defeating her.

Kirby initially seems to defeat Dreamstalk Sectonia, yes, but almost immediately afterwards she grabs and traps him, and he is totally unable to escape, actually yelling for help (which is one of the only times I can remember Kirby doing something like this). He is then saved by the triumphant return of Dedede and Taranza, who knock him out of Sectonia's grasp and give him the Miracle Fruit. It should also probably be noted that after Dedede knocks him out of Sectonia's vines, Kirby is briefly unconscious, which would seem to suggest the battle had worn him out quite a bit, as Dedede has never even come close to one-shotting Kirby, before. He does completely fodderize Dreamstalk Sectonia with his Hypernova powers soon afterwards, but she is still capable of fighting on her own, which would imply the battle beforehand, though it initially appeared to be in Kirby's favor, was much less strenuous on her than it was on him.

I'm not sure I would scale the anti-matter wave to Kirby. Him being the only one able to push it back seems to be more likely game mechanics (as everyone in a 4-player party being able to push it back would make the escape sequence incredibly easy), and it still destroys him should it catch up with him.

I would definitely say 02 and DN deserve the "At least", and quite possibly Dreamstalk Sectonia, too. Not sure about characters like Necrodeus or Drawcia. I remember both of them depowering Kirby, though it's been a long time since I've played either's game. Maybe Kirby could keep the "At least" for consistently defeating foes of that level, or perhaps he could be "4-A, possibly higher" (unless that implies a level greater than "At least 4-A". I'd have to check).
 
It's possible that not all final weapons are inferior to Kirby himself, but it's also possible that they are. We've never seen Kirby fighting 02 w/o a final weapon so we can't tell if he can hurt him w/o it, but I'm more inclined to say that he can, since he's capable of defeating DN (the possible 03) w/o the Triple Star. In fact, the Triple Star originally belongs to Daroach, and when DN manipulated the latter (boosting all of his aspects), he uses the Triple Star against Kirby, and Kirby still tanks it's attacks and punches the DN out of Daroach, suggesting that base Kirby indeed doesn't necessarily need final weapons against Dark Matter invaders and those are present just for "the rule of awesome" like in Robobot armor's case.

It's only when Kirby let his guard off that Sectonia got her chance to trap him. Kirby getting dizzy in a cartoon-like fashion after DDD's hammering seems more of a scene played for laughs, since Kirby then immediately gets on his feet and engages Sectonia again in Hypernova mode, and we know that the Miracle Fruit doesn't increase health (or physical power for that matter).

And the fact remains that Sectonia's strongest form (Sectonia soul) was still defeated only by base Kirby after he abandoned Hypernova mode.

When Kirby enters a level where he needs to outrun the wave he loses whatever copy ability he have, and that's clearly to depower him and make dealing with the anti-matter wave harder for him. When you're playing as anyone else aside from Kirby, you can't access to that level at all.

I'd say DN, 0 and Kirby. Necrodeus caught Kirby off guard (he was sleeping) and depowered him with a hax ability, so he doesn't necessarily deserve the "At least". Drawcia... maybe ? I vaguely recall her turning even the stars around Pop Star's solar system into painting.
 
The Triple Star Cane is supposed to be a "legendary weapon". I doubt it belonged to Daroach originally, since he is supposed to be a thief, after all. I also doubt it would do the same to Kirby as it would to something that is supposed to be pure evil.

Don't know if it was played for laughs. He's still unconscious when Dedede throws him, and isn't even awake again until he merges with the Miracle Fruit and goes Hypernova, suggesting it did indeed restore his power.

Is Sectonia Soul even canon to the story? Because I only recall her appearing in the Arena and not the story itself, in which the final boss is Dreamstalk Sectonia.

Yes, which is partially why I don't believe he should scale to the wave. He can very briefly hold it off, but this has no affect on it overall, and it will still completely destroy him if it so much as touches him.

Drawcia could probably keep the "At least", then.
 
It wasn't suggested that the Triple Star is more effective on evil than it is on anyone else, unlike the Rainbow sword or Love-love stick.

The Miracle Fruit is never shown to restore health anywhere else in the game. Kirby isn't even showing any sign of being tired in the cutscene where he happily jumps thinking Sectonia is dead in the 1st place.

I'm confused by that too, but the descreptive texts suggest that it's the actual ending events of the story hidden from the story mode (Sectonia revives herself by absorbing 4 miracle fruits ; she loses sanity and Taranza can no longer reach out to her). This is becoming a fashion in the Kirby games, since Planet Robobot does it too.

When it touches him ? Isn't it when it crushes him against the left part of the screen ? Well, he doesn't destroy the wave (the wave isn't something to destroy since it's apparently the destruction of that space itself) but if his power was any lower, then he wouldn't have even been able of pushing it back.

Yeah.
 
TheMightyRegulator said:
The (+) is only used when a calculation denotes the higher end of a tier. Considering Kirby is already listed At Least MSS, this won't result in any particular change in tiering.
Well plus signs can also be added upon through massive scaling (if a character has shown to be several levels of superiority to characters in that tier. Like someone one shotting someone who one shot someone who oneshot a City Level and such.) Calcs are not a necessity.

Which is why DBZ has "Star level+" there is no calc that placed them at high end starbusting. Plus sings can also just be based on common sense and doesn't need an actual value. Like how Goku and Beerus's clash doesn't have a specific number (and never could) but logically destroying the contents of an entire universe and maybe more in around 6 hits would have to be high end Multi-Galaxy.

Kav also said that plus signs are denoted to a feat being greater than the arithmetic mean of the tier's limits. Which I think destroying half a galaxy would fall under. Though maybe it might not be needed if Kirby has an at least. I'm not sure.
 
I just thought of something. Kirby is capable of tangling with a being that can destroy half a galaxy, with a small powerup in the Triple Cane. A 2X boost should logically put him at galaxy, correct? His Warpstar related abilities (Star Rod and Starship Cannon) and presumably Hypernova and Super Abilities could possibly push him to low end galaxy.

There is a high possibility that I'm wrong, so feel free to correct me.
 
@Azathoth I stand corrected on Seventopia being a universe, but I still believe Kirby should be able to keep the "at least" without it.

Mostly because Kirby defeated Claycia when she was possessed by Dark Crafter simply by reflecting some of her casual attacks back at her and then rolling into her repeatedly, and then defeated Dark Crafter himself simply by ramming into him a few times.

Most of his 4-A feats are feats that are acheived by virtue of his lesser attacks, which is why I believe Kirby should keep the "At least" on his profile.

Even without that, Kirby should be At least 4-A with the Triple Star Cane.

@Cal Well it's unknown as to how much of the galaxy he actually destroyed. We still see tons of star systems surrounding the big hole Dark Nebula left in the celestial bodies in the back ground, so it's likely not even half.

However, the fact that it happened near a black hole could suggest that it could've been higher.
 
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