Minecraft discussion thread

[Lilybitdun]

oh alright

 

[Lou_change]

Also the varying damage happens in game but we don't know why it happens so I guess we could add sometimes deals significantly less damage with its attacks for unclear reasons as a weakness instead.

 

[Keeweed]

The thing is, what you’re arguing for is entirely dependent on how much HP an enderman has and the damage a creeper can deal. There’s no direct statement saying endermen can survive such a thing, there’s no reason for us to assume they are in anyway comparable to one another, they can survive it simply because they can AND THATS IT.

Compare this to the fireball feat, it doesn’t scale to Steve because it’s survivable in-game, it’s because it makes sense given what else we know:

• Fireballs can’t break through large amounts of stone, Steve needs tools to break through stone
• Fireballs are stated to be dangerous, but not lethal

It makes sense in more ways than just “he can survive it in-game” THAT’S why it is a legit feat.

So, it’s either a) the feat doesn’t scale because it relies solely on in-game stats rather than evidence from other sources, or b) the feat is legit, but due to in-game stats, it doesn’t upgrade them at all

Unless you provide some other evidence here, the feat just doesn’t seem to actually work out

Games are scalable in that way though. Plus games are loaded with players hitting weirdly in comparison to enemies. Like in dark souls bosses obliterate massive stone structures via walking but the chosen undead can’t even with their explosions. The Enderman can always survive the creeper explosion, it was given the hp to even survive at the most point blank of point blank range.

Also when it comes to lifting strength Steve can wear full golden armor and break his fall in it, so he would be above athletic via that alone.

 

[CrackerVolley]

Hey, out of curiosity, have any of you heard or play in Civ servers? And I don't mean the social experiment/event types. I mean the like of CivMC or Civ+.

 

[IDK3465]

Games are scalable in that way though.

First off, I’m 99% sure they aren’t (ask any staff member regarding HP and stuff and they’ll say it isn’t allowed), and if it is allowed under the site’s rules, it really shouldn’t be.

Plus games are loaded with players hitting weirdly in comparison to enemies. Like in dark souls bosses obliterate massive stone structures via walking but the chosen undead can’t even with their explosions.

Yes, and that’s why in-game stats shouldn’t be taken seriously, they’re just plain inconsistent with what is intended lore-wise and cause issues like this, where a character who is meant to be on-par with another, can only produce a fraction of the damage or vise versa.

The Enderman can always survive the creeper explosion, it was given the hp to even survive at the most point blank of point blank range.

Sorry to mention this again, but regular ass zombies were given enough HP to take hits from the Ender Dragon, should they scale to her? No, so why are we assuming this is any different?

Also when it comes to lifting strength Steve can wear full golden armor and break his fall in it, so he would be above athletic via that alone.

I’m not against the LS stuff.
Things like the mace clearly show that items have weight to them, items looking smaller when in hand or floating around is just a visual to indicate “this thing can be picked up now”, blocks not behaving in certain ways when as an item is just a game mechanics thing to prevent weird stuff like trying to give an anvil to someone only for it to damage them.

 

[Keeweed]

Hp with combined explosives isn’t, just having the hp to survive an attack has been. Many games get their scaling that way, like terraria’s first bosses scale to the tnt because they take it. Though I personally do want to upgrade some bosses to scale away from that, but terraria is in crt hell where no revision will ever go through ever

Also I am glad you agree with the lifting strength part. Good to know.
I can get how the Enderman is a bit finicky but like it’s durability versus attack and both equally happen. The attack is lower but the defense is higher. Usually I have seen in games the defense tends to take priority like characters surviving meteors and stuff. I lean towards it to because damage in a lot of games work off dps. Ghast hit slow and hard, versus zombies hitting weak but continuous in range, it’s a pinicial of game design

 

[IDK3465]

Hp with combined explosives isn’t, just having the hp to survive an attack has been. Many games get their scaling that way, like terraria’s first bosses scale to the tnt because they take it. Though I personally do want to upgrade some bosses to scale away from that, but terraria is in crt hell where no revision will ever go through ever

Also I am glad you agree with the lifting strength part. Good to know.
I can get how the Enderman is a bit finicky but like it’s durability versus attack and both equally happen. The attack is lower but the defense is higher. Usually I have seen in games the defense tends to take priority like characters surviving meteors and stuff. I lean towards it to because damage in a lot of games work off dps. Ghast hit slow and hard, versus zombies hitting weak but continuous in range, it’s a pinicial of game design

Well, the reason why most characters in games scale that way is because there’s typically a clear progression from one step to another that shows what items the player can potentially have at the moment they fight a certain thing, allowing them to scale.

Minecraft, however, doesn’t have that luxury.
Due to its sandbox nature, you can do whatever you want whenever you want to, and that causes problems with whether or not something is meant to scale to something else lore-wise. It’s the same issue with stuff like Breath of the Wild/Tears of the Kingdom, where the player can go to the final boss and beat the game immediately after the tutorial, wether or not it makes sense in-universe. This is why you need to be careful with how you go about scaling in video games, or else you can lead into issues like basic Goombas scaling to Mario, and other shit like that.

You can have characters scale to things that one-shot them in-game, but you need a real damn good reason for doing so

 

[Keeweed]

What Minecraft very clearly has that luxury, there is progression in the ores and what you can fight. You can’t fight an Enderman with your fist without cheeseing the game, it will kill you nigh instantly. It is specifically superior to other enemies in every way and they have it the stats to survive creeper explosions. Should the bosses scale to base Steve if there is apparently no progression. The game has official guides that specially lay out the progression.

 

[IDK3465]

What Minecraft very clearly has that luxury, there is progression in the ores and what you can fight. You can’t fight an Enderman with your fist without cheeseing the game, it will kill you nigh instantly. It is specifically superior to other enemies in every way and they have it the stats to survive creeper explosions. Should the bosses scale to base Steve if there is apparently no progression. The game has official guides that specially lay out the progression.

I mean, yes, Minecraft clearly has progression in what you are meant to fight and what is the intended way of going through the game, but that isn’t exactly clear in the same way a more linear game is. Just because something CAN fight something doesn’t mean it SHOULD.

Also, even if Minecraft was fully linear, it doesn’t mean it’s intended for Endermen to survive Creeper explosions. They can survive them in-game, sure, but unless if there’s some kind of statement or showcase of them being capable lore-wise, it doesn’t mean we should assume it to be valid

 

[Keeweed]

The guides make it pretty clear on what you do when. Like diamond armor for the nether and enchanted diamonds / Netherite for the bosses (which I would argue some nether enemies should be stronger like brutes). Warden is a no fight and Enderman are on the higher end for enemies both states and shown. You are saying can and should, the Enderman can, that’s the important part. It will always survive, no matter what it’ll always live and is meant to be higher in the progression. Maybe it could be 2 times zombie ap wise, large building level durability wise, that would be the compromise I would go with. But purely from the mobestiary statement. In game I think it’s pretty consistently a mid tier enemy that can easily kill a Steve with equipment that lets you comfortably survive ghast.

 

[IDK3465]

The guides make it pretty clear on what you do when. Like diamond armor for the nether and enchanted diamonds / Netherite for the bosses (which I would argue some nether enemies should be stronger like brutes). Warden is a no fight and Enderman are on the higher end for enemies both states and shown. You are saying can and should, the Enderman can, that’s the important part. It will always survive, no matter what it’ll always live and is meant to be higher in the progression. Maybe it could be 2 times zombie ap wise, large building level durability wise, that would be the compromise I would go with. But purely from the mobestiary statement. In game I think it’s pretty consistently a mid tier enemy that can easily kill a Steve with equipment that lets you comfortably survive ghast.

The armor progression makes sense for things like bosses, as they are explicitly meant to challenge and be a significant threat to the player. Regular ass enemies though are way less clear in how they compare to other characters, that’s why you never see anyone claim Badnicks should scale to Sonic, because regardless of what they can do in-game, they are expressly weaker than him in lore.
Again, I just don’t understand this double standard where Endermen should scale to Creepers for having enough HP to survive its explosion, but Zombies don’t scale to Jean for taking her attacks. Either Endermen don’t scale to Creepers, or everyone is 7-C, that’s it.

Also, the Mobestiary says Endermen have twice the strength AND durability of Zombies, so not even your compromise works

 

[Lou_change]

terraria’s first bosses scale to the tnt because they take it

I mean the calc is almost fundamentally wrong but I also brought up disagreement to the wall of flesh's moon feat so the crt I made about it died also they tank explosions way better.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Also Endermen aren't just more difficult than say, zombies and creepers because they're stronger. Most importantly they can teleport and are basically impossible to hit with arrows even if they don't see you.

So them being more difficult to fight can't just be assigned to stats

 

[Keeweed]

Yes but they just objectively hit harder, faster, and with more durability.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Yes but they just objectively hit harder, faster, and with more durability.

Do they deal as much damage as a point blank creeper explosion tho?

 

[Keeweed]

As I was saying earlier do you use the attack or defense. Enderman quickly shred you with armor that allows you to survive the explosion. Dps is a big thing in games.

 

[DavidTPPM]

As I was saying earlier do you use the attack or defense. Enderman quickly shred you with armor that allows you to survive the explosion. Dps is a big thing in games.

That's cool but besides my point.
You're using Endermans damage to say he's stronger but when I bring that line of thinking to its logical conclusion (EMs damage being lower than Creeper explosions) you suddenly switch up

 

[Keeweed]

I’m not, the Enderman always survives the explosion. If the numbers don’t matter then the Enderman hurts the player that survives the explosion too and they survive it, if it does then both equally happen, but the Enderman is directly stated to be as strong as it is durable in story, so which one should used is up to which one you think fits more, and I think the Enderman being large 8-C fits with zombies being 8-C especially since the high 8-C feat isn’t causal

 

[Lou_change]

Enderman is directly stated to be as strong as it is durable in story

Where?

 

[IDK3465]

Where?

Well, it isn’t directly stated, but given how Endermen are twice as strong and durable as Zombies, and Zombies can harm Steve who has equal dura, logic dictates the Endermen’s AP = Dura

 

[IDK3465]

I’m not, the Enderman always survives the explosion.

The problem isn’t it being consistent gameplay-wise, the problem is if what we see in gameplay aligns with what we see in lore.

If the numbers don’t matter then the Enderman hurts the player that survives the explosion too and they survive it, if it does then both equally happen,

I’ll be honest, I don’t really understand what you’re trying to say here, if you can explain it with a little more clarity, I’d appreciate it.

but the Enderman is directly stated to be as strong as it is durable in story, so which one should used is up to which one you think fits more, and I think the Enderman being large 8-C fits with zombies being 8-C especially since the high 8-C feat isn’t causal

Personally, I feel that doesn’t fit as well, as it clashes with the 2x statement (unless you mean that Zombies should be 8-C+)

 

[Keeweed]

I’m trying to say enderman’s as enemies are stated to fight armored players and players with armor can survive the creeper explosion.
But can you show me the exact wording on the ghast explosion in the book

 

[IDK3465]

I’m trying to say enderman’s as enemies are stated to fight armored players and players with armor can survive the creeper explosion.

Firstly, source?
Second, gameplay wise, I’m 90% sure you at minimum need diamond armor in order to survive creeper explosions point-blank, and “armored enemies” can easily refer to leather or iron armor, as that’s what you’d typically have access to when fighting an Enderman for the first time.

But can you show me the exact wording on the ghast explosion in the book

Here

 

[Keeweed]

I’ll read it tomorrow since I have work and my phone is lagging so hard.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I’m trying to say enderman’s as enemies are stated to fight armored players and players with armor can survive the creeper explosion.

Surviving ≠ tanking

 

[Keeweed]

You don’t need to fully face tank something to scale, however I have seen staff thinking about recalcing the explosions with diamonds now that we have those values. If ghast can’t blow up diamond and creepers can (I think that is the case) then that would completely change the conversation. So I’ll wait to see how that ends up before I continue here

 

[DavidTPPM]

You don’t need to fully face tank something to scale,

You also can't be left in a near death state either lol.

 

[IDK3465]

If ghast can’t blow up diamond and creepers can (I think that is the case) then that would completely change the conversation. So I’ll wait to see how that ends up before I continue here

Well, ghasts can’t destroy cobblestone, let alone diamonds (though, I do disagree with using diamond for explosions due to it not fully pulverizing, but I digress)

 

[Keeweed]

It can pulverize some of it though, just calc which gets fragmented and what gets pulverized. Though yes if ghast can’t destroy diamond then the difference between the creeper and ghast explosion will be absolutely gigantic after we calc that (probably 8-C versus 8-B). In which case will be a very different revision (I would argue for brutes ap, iron golems, and either: vindicators ap, evokers ap, and ravengers to scale, or just ravengers since something canonically kills the iron golems in raids since raids are designed around the player being the only line of defense that can actually stop a raid at all).

 

[IDK3465]

It can pulverize some of it though, just calc which gets fragmented and what gets pulverized. Though yes if ghast can’t destroy diamond then the difference between the creeper and ghast explosion will be absolutely gigantic after we calc that (probably 8-C versus 8-B). In which case will be a very different revision (I would argue for brutes ap, iron golems, and either: vindicators ap, evokers ap, and ravengers to scale, or just ravengers since something canonically kills the iron golems in raids since raids are designed around the player being the only line of defense that can actually stop a raid at all).

After doing some math, the creeper explosion would apparently be Low 7-C, so uh, yeah

 

[Keeweed]

Wow, well that supports the Ender dragon way more than haha. And fits with iron golems being closer to bosses.

 

[Zyurtunder13]

Talking about high tiers, I remember that in Minecraft Dungeons (which is canon to the Minecraft's universe and probably a sequel to Minecraft) the second boss of the DLC (Wretched Wraith) was planning in creating a super storm to freeze the entire world, or at least the continent where Minecraft Dungeons takes place, of course it was never able to do it because the heroes stopped it, but it was still able to create a storm that freeze an entire island, and the Heart of Ender should scale to it as the creature was made with a fragment of it, of course there's also the ridiculous statement of the final boss that the Heart of Ender was planning in merged all dimensions in the Minecraft's cosmology to make them collapse into each other and murder all life across the worlds, of course again it was never able to gain enough power to do it

 

[IDK3465]

Talking about high tiers, I remember that in Minecraft Dungeons (which is canon to the Minecraft's universe and probably a sequel to Minecraft) the second boss of the DLC (Wretched Wraith) was planning in creating a super storm to freeze the entire world, or at least the continent where Minecraft Dungeons takes place, of course it was never able to do it because the heroes stopped it, but it was still able to create a storm that freeze an entire island, and the Heart of Ender should scale to it as the creature was made with a fragment of it, of course there's also the ridiculous statement of the final boss that the Heart of Ender was planning in merged all dimensions in the Minecraft's cosmology to make them collapse into each other and murder all life across the worlds, of course again it was never able to gain enough power to do it

Yeah, I have seen some really busted stuff from Dungeons that currently isn’t on the profiles for some reason. Also, in Legends, the Orb of Dominance was used to completely blot out the sun, and was keeping the whole world in night, returning to normal after it got destroyed. Considering the Heart of Ender is the true form of the Orb, it should probably scale to this.

 

[Keeweed]

Yeah, I have seen some really busted stuff from Dungeons that currently isn’t on the profiles for some reason. Also, in Legends, the Orb of Dominance was used to completely blot out the sun, and was keeping the whole world in night, returning to normal after it got destroyed. Considering the Heart of Ender is the true form of the Orb, it should probably scale to this.

I have thought that last part forever but had no clue if people would agree or not. Do we count the “keeping the world night” as hold space in place or the world? I assume space since the stars stop moving too. So that’s high 3-A since Minecraft is infinite right?

 

[IDK3465]

I have thought that last part forever but had no clue if people would agree or not. Do we count the “keeping the world night” as hold space in place or the world? I assume space since the stars stop moving too. So that’s high 3-A since Minecraft is infinite right?

I mean, it could easily only be the stars we see get moved (4-A)
Or, we could assume the Overworld itself is the thing that is being kept in-place. Given how it should at bare minimum be as large as we see it in-game, it can easily net like High 5-A or something like that

 

[Keeweed]

But the overworld is specifically stated to be infinite, ignoring that even within the base game it’s larger than Neptune.

 

[IDK3465]

But the overworld is specifically stated to be infinite

While that is the case for the universe in general, it’s also weird cause the sun, moon, and stars are seemingly able to go below the Overworld (as in, the ground that we are physically at in game, not the universe as a whole), implying that it must have an edge to it somewhere, which should at a minimum be the farthest point we can access in-game

 

[Keeweed]

I thought the entire point of the statement was about the planet, like the creators were saying the overworld has limitless potential for exploration in story. Still though the sky is endless and I think that’s much more clearly what they are stopping.

 

[IDK3465]

Btw, I made a chart expanding on what I did here showing the energy of various explosions using different materials.

Uh, enjoy ig

 

[Lilybitdun]

oh hey is the whole sculker vibration thing gonna be used to upgrade the verse's speed?