Mind Manipulation revision: Numbers ain't everything

[Bobsican]

Okay, this has bugged me for years, and while it sounds ridiculous in paper, Mind Manip potency shouldn't just be measured on how many are affected at once, then claim that X can just concentrate that much power into a single target to bypass a "baseline" resistance.

There's an obvious burden of proof to claim if a mind hax works like that in the first place, let alone it being usable like that to target a single individual.

For example, character A inflicts a change on the way the minds of those inflicted work (aka, mindhax in this way), and all it's required for this to trigger is them hearing a noise, this noise was spreaded eventually as he traveled across a place, and then millions got mindhaxed in the long run accordingly. Does this means this mindhax has the potency of all of them at once? No, and that's because it doesn't work like that to begin with, that would be like saying that a disease that affected millions is this strong against a single individual (and even then a confirmation of the user being able to concentrate that into a single target is required), and so it would just be range, not "Y can mindhax thousands of people, so your character isn't resisting it", but instead more like "While Y can mindhax thousands of people, there's nothing to claim that their mindhax potency is related to numbers nor that it can be "concentrated" to a single opponent, so X's baseline resistance covers it".

And just lowering or raising the range isn't something that can just be assumed to be within the mindhaxer's capability, let alone such act turning the mind manip "stronger". Just because a time stop affects a universe, doesn't mean that limiting it to a single area (or vice versa) means that the time stop is necessarily "stronger" in there, for instance.

Therefore, I'd like if it's done more on a case by case basis, but not defaulting to numbers for potency, we don't do that to Time Manipulation or Disease Manipulation, for instance, but rather just "resistance layers", as we do with many other hax abilities, at least by default.

 

[Oleggator]

Pretty much agree with op.

 

[Confluctor]

Agree

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, I believe last time the topic is brought up, we also factor the fact that active mind manipulation is usually stronger than passive mind manipulation as far as individual targets are concerned. Exception is if character A is basically immune to character B's active mind manipulation despite to otherwise have excellent control over an entire planet and then character C has a better version that easily effects them despite being passive. But we otherwise factor the fact that someone needs to be more active to prove someone's resistance is that good to begin with.

Another example is that we also consider the fact that the potency of mind manipulation is determined based on individuals being intelligent lifeforms and the like as opposed to it being mostly animals.

 

[KingTempest]

Following

 

[Armerish]

I agree, I remember when someone asked this regarding time manipulation, and it was also answered that the potential is measured by capes and not by range.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Absolutely agree with this. Though, wouldn't the same be said to soul manip?

 

[Bobsican]

Absolutely agree with this. Though, wouldn't the same be said to soul manip?

TBH yes. Someone being able to absorb countless souls doesn't mean that "countless power" is applied to each individual one, nor that the one doing so can necessarily concentrate such power to a single target for the purposes of soul manip.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

So basically a case by case basis on how the characters mind manipulation works and if the other characters resistance counters it? I can agree with that.

 

[KLOL506]

So basically a case by case basis on how the characters mind manipulation works and if the other characters resistance counters it? I can agree with that.

Pretty sure this was the conclusion we came up with the last time this exact topic was covered on.

 

[Bobsican]

For the record, this would affect several previous vs threads, such as Star Wars characters no longer having "OP" mindhax out of the numbers not being really quantificable for this kind of purpose anymore.

 

[Purgy]

This would effect the potency of virtually any character with mind/soul hax, drastically at that.

Rarely ever does a series show that it can or needs to be focused on a single character

Regardless, why is this any different from the several previous threads that were rejected regarding this topic? People have tried revising how we determine mind/soul hax potency for years, no idea why there's suddenly been such a massive change in opinion.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Agree with Purgy.

 

[Bobsican]

This would effect the potency of virtually any character with mind/soul hax, drastically at that.

Rarely ever does the series show that it can or needs to be focused on a single character

Regardless, why is this any different from the several previous threads that were rejected regarding this topic? People have tried revising how we determine mind/soul hax potency for years, no idea why there's suddenly been such a massive change in opinion.

Yeah, site-wide changes aren't unheard of.

Yeah, and that's not even exactly the issue, but rather such act actually raising its power, and even then by how much would be unquantificable compared to a resistance to bypass, we don't take someone time stopping a group of 5 characters that resist time stop as bypassing 5 resistance layers, but just 1 layer, for instance, so neither should we assume that mindhaxing 4 people (with a fifth one resisting) has the potency of 5 resistance layers (the 4 people didn't even have a resistance), let alone the one resisting having a resistance level that large (5 resistance layers) when there's nothing supporting the power working like that (or being measurable for our purposes normally, frankly), it's hax, after all.

Perhaps because better arguments were brought up, something not being approved for a while doesn't mean it's necessarily inherently wrong in the first place either.

 

[Eficiente]

We already have it this way, that's why the moon in Touhou doesn't do much. But we should 100% write out the "rules" in the Mind Manip page, as any kind of users can get away with claiming whatever.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Yeah, and that's not even exactly the issue, but rather such act actually raising its power, and even then by how much would be unquantificable compared to a resistance to bypass, we don't take someone time stopping a group of 5 characters that resist time stop as bypassing 5 resistance layers, but just 1 layer, for instance.

I don't think any comparison of soul/mind hax to time hax works. Both are drastically different haxxes.
Time hax can only be measured in layers or smurf or some other whacky attributes like time stopping in timeless voids and such.
We never even use ""numbers"" for time hax to begin with.

Meanwhile numbers work for measuring mind/soul hax because these act like mental/astral AP/durability. And multitasking aspect comes into play aswell. These are two only haxxes I know that use numbers as one of factors in judging potency. Aside from smurf, abstract and other factors.
So I don't see why we have to steer away from good enough system we already have.

If someone wants mind/soul hax potency to judged unconventionally from default....then they should make that case for that specific verse. I don't see need to unnecessarily drag entire wiki into this.

 

[Armerish]

I don't think any comparison of soul/mind hax to time hax works. Both are drastically different haxxes.
Time hax can only be measured in layers or smurf or some other whacky attributes like time stopping in timeless voids and such.
We never even use ""numbers"" for time hax to begin with.

Meanwhile numbers work for measuring mind/soul hax because these act like mental/astral AP/durability. And multitasking aspect comes into play aswell. These are two only haxxes I know that use numbers as one of factors in judging potency. Aside from smurf, abstract and other factors.
So I don't see why we have to steer away from good enough system we already have.

If someone wants mind/soul hax potency to judged unconventionally from default....then they should make that case for that specific verse. I don't see need to unnecessarily drag entire wiki into this.

So just analize the specific cases?

 

[Purgy]

Yeah, site-wide changes aren't unheard of.

Yeah, and that's not even exactly the issue, but rather such act actually raising its power, and even then by how much would be unquantificable compared to a resistance to bypass, we don't take someone time stopping a group of 5 characters that resist time stop as bypassing 5 resistance layers, but just 1 layer, for instance, so neither should we assume that mindhaxing 4 people (with a fifth one resisting) has the potency of 5 resistance layers, let alone the one resisting having a resistance that large when there's nothing supporting the power working like that, it's hax, after all.

Perhaps because better arguments were brought up, something being not approved for a while doesn't mean it's necessarily inherently wrong in the first place either.

I'm just pointing out how much of an impact this actually has, it's not just a small CRT affecting a few characters, it completely changes how potency for hax is quantified here.

Sounds like your problem is more with how we compare numerical hax potency to overcoming resistance, I don't think the best solution to this is to essentially remove potency for number of characters effected entirely, which is what your proposal would basically lead to with such a specific requirement.

Anyway, as for my opinion on the topic, I think it's fine as it is, though truth be told, I don't much care, it doesn't impact anything I care about.

 

[Orioreeem]

So mindhaxing infinite people can be resisted only by one layer of resistance?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So just analize the specific cases?

If it is felt that specific verse steers away from number's potency in some unconventional way...then yeah..you can settle that issue for that verse in a CRT specifically.

 

[Armerish]

If it is felt that specific verse steers away from number's potency in some unconventional way...then yeah..you can settle that issue fir that verse in a CRT specifically.

Yeah I agree with this. Unthought we shouldn't put this in mind manipulation rules?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Yeah I agree with this. Unthought we shouldn't put this in mind manipulation rules?

If it satisfies almost everyone's problems with good solution, then yeah...I think this is good enough.

 

[Armerish]

If it satisfies almost everyone's problems with good solution, then yeah...I think this is good enough.

Seems right for me but I don't know what other thinks.

 

[Overlord775]

For the record, this would affect several previous vs threads, such as Star Wars characters no longer having "OP" mindhax out of the numbers not being really quantificable for this kind of purpose anymore.

just want to point out that Star Wars wouldn't be affected, as since their mind hax come from manipulating the Force there's no reason to assume they can't concentrate all the power to mindhax X number of people into a single person

though, neutral otherwise

 

[Bobsican]

I don't think any comparison of soul/mind hax to time hax works. Both are drastically different haxxes.
Time hax can only be measured in layers or smurf or some other whacky attributes like time stopping in timeless voids and such.
We never even use ""numbers"" for time hax to begin with.

Meanwhile numbers work for measuring mind/soul hax because these act like mental/astral AP/durability. And multitasking aspect comes into play aswell. These are two only haxxes I know that use numbers as one of factors in judging potency. Aside from smurf, abstract and other factors.
So I don't see why we have to steer away from good enough system we already have.

If someone wants mind/soul hax potency to judged unconventionally from default....then they should make that case for that specific verse. I don't see need to unnecessarily drag entire wiki into this.

Indeed, and this raises the question on why we don't do that to mind manip, and no, it's a false equivalency, mind manip is hax, and any kind of "durability" to overcome would just be a resistance, and even then it has to show someone resisting it, then bypassing it in some way to claim that it bypasses at least one resistance layer, going back to my previous example, doing a hax to multiple people that resist that ability (example, time stop) is just range and is bypassing a single resistance layer, not multiple.

In fact, we don't assume that a move with more range than a regular one is necessarily stronger than the other (or vice versa) to begin with by default, so the AP argument is moot.

I'm just pointing out how much of an impact this actually has, it's not just a small CRT affecting a few characters, it completely changes how potency for hax is quantified here.

Sounds like your problem is more with how we compare numerical hax potency to overcoming resistance, I don't think the best solution to this is to essentially remove potency for number of characters effected entirely, which is what your proposal would basically lead to with such a specific requirement.

Anyway, as for my opinion on the topic, I think it's fine as it is, though truth be told, I don't much care, it doesn't impact anything I care about.

Fine by me.

Well, as I've described previously, this kind of "potency" is just unquantificable at best, and we don't just jump adding numbers for the sake of making something usable outside its setting (Aka, a vs thread), this being the exception for no apparent reason really sticks out.
That being said, if this passes, such values would potentially remain usable for such cases where the amount above baseline is unquantificable, but arguments would have to be done, like how an unquantificable AP amp is measured at best on how easier of a match A has against B opponents in their series.

just want to point out that Star Wars wouldn't be affected, as since their mind hax come from manipulating the Force there's no reason to assume they can't concentrate all the power to mindhax X number of people into a single person

though, neutral otherwise

Actually, it would, an assumption is required to claim that they can concentrate it like that in the first place to a single being, if no more details are avaliable, but I can see some arguments for that verse staying about the same out of Force semantics, although out of a lack of resistance layers being involved for the most part, it'd likely get nerfed for the purposes of a vs thread.

 

[Orioreeem]

Meanwhile numbers work for measuring mind/soul hax because these act like mental/astral AP/durability.

So if in verse concepts have durability, does that mean we should determine the potency of conceptual manipulation with numbers?

 

[Bobsican]

So if in verse concepts have durability, does that mean we should determine the potency of conceptual manipulation with numbers?

Of course not, that's just Non-Physical Interaction + AP generally, which is a quite separate thing, or otherwise just hax that isn't quantified like that, as it's based on resistance layer bypassing for the purposes of a match (and the type), not how many are done at once unless that's confirmed to be a factor related to potency in the setting, which even then would just be unquantificable, and an assumption would often be required to claim that such power can be concentrated to a single target.

 

[Rez]

We already have it this way, that's why the moon in Touhou doesn't do much. But we should 100% write out the "rules" in the Mind Manip page, as any kind of users can get away with claiming whatever.

I absolutely agree with this

 

[StrymULTRA]

So, RIP Mewtwo's overpowered Mind Hax in the billions?

 

[EliminatorVenom]

I fully agree with this. It is way too easy to find examples of things, both in fiction and real life, that have an effect over a large area that can affect everyone within equally on a certain "level".

Thus, Eficiente's suggestion ought to be done, writing specific rules on the Mind Manipulation page.

 

[Bobsican]

So, RIP Mewtwo's overpowered Mind Hax in the billions?

Sadly, probably, although it's still OP range at least.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So if in verse concepts have durability, does that mean we should determine the potency of conceptual manipulation with numbers?

That was just an analogy, not an actual standard I gave to measure with.
And no conceptual hax doesn't even begin to compare with mind/soul hax. So its such a false analogy that its not even funny.

Conceptual shenanigans cannot and will not ever have "durability" in anyway.

Indeed, and this raises the question on why we don't do that to mind manip, and no, it's a false equivalency, mind manip is hax, and any kind of "durability" to overcome would just be a resistance, and even then it has to show someone resisting it, then bypassing it in some way to claim that it bypasses at least one resistance layer, going back to my previous example, doing a hax to multiple people that resist that ability (example, time stop) is just range and is bypassing a single resistance layer, not multiple.

In fact, we don't assume that a move with more range than a regular one is necessarily stronger than the other (or vice versa) to begin with by default, so the AP argument is moot.

Manipulation of minds is not a just a simple on and off command like time hax or EE.
To manipulate minds can be comapred with a computer processing unit trying to multitask and operate multiple other processes or something equivalent.
The more difficult or complex the task is, more processing power is required.
So I will not agree that manipulators don't need potency equal to work they do.

While I can agree that individuals resisting/suffering under that influence would only resist/suffer their own respective portions of manipulating influence. So resistance in that case will be baseline.

 

[Orioreeem]

That was just an analogy, not an actual standard I gave to measure with.
And no conceptual hax doesn't even begin to compare with mind/soul hax. So its such a false analogy that its not even funny.

Conceptual shenanigans cannot and will not ever have "durability" in anyinway.

That's why i said if verse treats it as having durability for example Persona does it like that.

 

[Cul0r]

TBH yes. Someone being able to absorb countless souls doesn't mean that "countless power" is applied to each individual one, nor that the one doing so can necessarily concentrate such power to a single target for the purposes of soul manip.

This is why I agree, AoE is not power, Necrozma is 3-C for a reason.

I agree with this

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

That's why i said if verse treats it as having durability for example Persona does it like that.

I have absolutely no idea why or how it has it that way. I have zero knowledge.
So I'll keep mum on that.

 

[TypeOU]

Just because a time stop affects a universe, doesn't mean that limiting it to a single area (or vice versa) means that the time stop is necessarily "stronger" in there, for instance.

dio buff when

agreedbtw

 

[Orioreeem]

Mind manipulation page says that the potency is determined with multiple factors but it's only ever determined by the numbers. If this gets accepted that should be changed and that change should be reflected on mind manipulation page.

 

[TypeOU]

I have absolutely no idea why or how it has it that way. I have zero knowledge.
So I'll keep mum on that.

don't know much about persona but I guess it's litterally an attack to the mind/soul? like fate and undertale currently does

 

[Bobsican]

Manipulation of minds is not a just a simple on and off command like time hax or EE.
To manipulate minds can be comapred with a computer processing unit trying to multitask and operate multiple other processes or something equivalent.
The more difficult or complex the task is, more processing power is required.
So I will not agree that manipulators don't need potency equal to work they do.

While I can agree that individuals resisting/suffering under that influence would only resist/suffer their own respective portions of manipulating influence. So resistance in that case will be baseline.

The problem here relies on how the mindhax works in the first place, if it was a character actually having to keep each individual within its control constantly then you'd have a point, but more often than not it's just a character doing something that changes how their mind work, at that point no multitasking is done in the first place, and so just a baseline mindhax would be involved, rather than whatever number of people-times mindhax (As I've outlined before, an amount of people and an amount of resistance layers aren't comparable or relatable normally), and even then this multitasking is unquantificable compared to an actual mindhax resistance, as said before.
I'm also not saying that "equal" potency is exactly required, but rather the "higher" amount being just unquantificable generally, and thus unusable for bypassing a resistance really.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Actually, it would, an assumption is required to claim that they can concentrate it like that in the first place to a single being, if no more details are avaliable, but I can see some arguments for that verse staying about the same out of Force semantics, although out of a lack of resistance layers being involved for the most part, it'd likely get nerfed for the purposes of a vs thread.

IIRC, Mind based Force powers such as Nihilus' are still able to overpower the resistances of other Force Sensitives.