Metroid: Revisions Return (Probably Part I)

[Creaturemaster971]

Would he have some manner of empathic manipulation, considering the fact that his voice was stated in Other M to cause other creatures to become more ferocious and unhinged? As well as possibly having martial arts listed due to having comparable combat skill to Samus?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Martial Arts given he's a hand to hand combat genius, but not sure about Empathic Manipulation and sounds a little iffy. Prefer to hear SD's thoughts on that though.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Alright. I'm currently playing Other M and his voice doing the thing is a pretty big plot point. Also plenty of skill and intellect feats too.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

>Seeing all of time and space and ascending beyond it

Uhh, isn't that just straight-up Universe+

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Not necessarily, no.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Ascending Outside Space-Time =/= Existing on a plane of higher infinity above it. It's just advanced Cosmic Awareness + At least Type 2 Acausality.

 

[Theglassman12]

how is that type 2 acausality? Type 2 acausal just makes you a singularity in a point and time.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Edited, At least Type 2. If you exist outside of time and space, someone wouldn't be able to see and/or manipulate your future unless they have an the ability to see non existing things. But it doesn't quite sound like type 3 and type 4 I thought needed context.

 

[Theglassman12]

existing outside of time and space doesn't give any form of acausality. That's like an immeasurable feat at best. And type 2 again, you exist in the present, not the past or future, that has nothing to do with time and space.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

existing outside of time and space doesn't give any form of acausality. That's like an immeasurable feat at best. And type 2 again, you exist in the present, not the past or future, that has nothing to do with time and space.

Immeasurable samus for scaling off chozo ghosts ovo

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

You would need to exist in Space-Time for Fate or Causality manipulation to affect you to begin with is the problem.

 

[Theglassman12]

Space and Time is NOT the same as Fate and Causality dude.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Never said it was, but the fact is; time is required to exist for Fate or Causality to exist. That's the definition of Causality; an event happening in the past that effects the future.

 

[Theglassman12]

If that was seriously how we rate Acausality, then we'd have a LOT more characters being type 2 than normal, which isn't the case cause Cause and Effect have nothing to do with space and time, nor does Fate.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Acausility Type 1 means you don't exist in the past, Type 2 means you don't exist in the past or the future. Existing completely outside of Time and Space literally means you don't exist Past, Present, or Future. Also, need better examples rather than just a simple "A whole lot more characters would have that". I don't need to explain what past, present, or future mean.

 

[Theglassman12]

That's NOT what type 1 acausality means. It means you're unaffected by time paradoxes

No it doesn't. You're just not confined to time and space, which again is where a lot of characters have Immeasurable speeds to begin with, this barely has connection to acausality.

 

[SomebodyData]

I wouldn't use Other M stuff unless its stated or has some similar aspects in other parts of the series.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Other M is explicitly canon (however much I hate its story and want it to be remade), the only thing people nigh-universally disregard is the characterization of Samus and Adam due to how much it contradicts their previous portrayals.

Luckily Ridley is cool as always in it, and it does give him some new abilities and weaknesses that hadn't been seen elsewhere in the series.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Other M is basically full of PIS, but there are indeed some useful abilities introduced. And really the main good thing that came out of it was confirmation that Samus and Joey is canon. As well as S&J of course having the true badass character that is Samus; In terms of personality, the main character of Other M looks more like some imposter that wants to be Samus and that Samus doesn't actually appear in that game.

 

[SomebodyData]

The issue is that outside of just the characterisation, it creates some pretty massive contradictions with the abilities and worldbuilding (moreso than the story, which I feel is a tad exagerated).

Hence why I mentioned we only add abilities sparringly.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Such as what? I can't think of any major contradictions.

The story is mostly just bland and wasted more than outright bad. The only things that are actively bad are Samus's weaker personality and Adam's character. Anthony and Ridley are great.

And the missile system. That's also bad.

 

[Theglassman12]

I remember one of the scenes mentioned how it was her FIRST mission with the military since she was a freelance bounty hunter, which is bullshit as she worked for the military back in Metroid Prime 3

 

[Creaturemaster971]

When was that said? I only remember her saying it was the first time she'd seen Anthony and Adam since then

 

[SomebodyData]

Nah I also remember her saying what Glass mentioned.

Adam being able to one-shot Samus comes to mind as another contradiction, the Space Pirates are feral without Mother Brain (Makes Metroid Zero Mission all the way to Super Metroid impossible), Ridley having limited Animal Manip / Empathic Manip (Cough cough Samus Returns), probably a few more that I can't remember.

 

[Theglassman12]

When was that said? I only remember her saying it was the first time she'd seen Anthony and Adam since then

It was around when she got taken in by Adam and I think when the obvious traitor was like.... hacking the system or some crap. I remember it cause someone made a Plinkett review of Other M And constantly brought that line she said as like the biggest contradiction in the game.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, a lot of plot holes. And Phantoon being an "upper-dimensional deity" is another thing that's inconsistent. And also sounds hyperbolic unless it can be proven the same boat as the Tallon IV Chozo.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

wasn't mother brain around for zero mission through super? how are they being feral without her a problem? And in Fusion, they were technically x parasites.

 

[Genericstickman]

Funnily enough in the Other M Japanese Stategy Guide their exists a timeline of the games that still has the Prime games as canon despite lines in Other M contradicting that

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Zephyros, in the canon manga; the Space Pirates were consistently shown to be quite intelligent with or without Mother Brain's guidance. Plus, if they were actually feral, then Mother Brain would have had galaxy wide mind manipulation which would in turn scale to Samus' resistance to mind manipulation. Also, there is a Nintendo Power page confirming the Prime games as being canon and it was released the same time Other M came out.

 

[SomebodyData]

No, she was around untill about 4/5 of the game, the last 1/5 she is dead and is also the first time in the game where space pirates are around. She was resurrected in Super Metroid, but several games (Prime trilogy and spin-offs, Samus Returns, occur during this time.)

Them being feral means they can't be, you know. Intellgent? A Space Pirate force gone feral would result in their immediate destruction as a group. Not to mention like shown above, they showed intellect in the games that take place between her death and resurrection.

The Metroid manga also reveals that Mother Brain only began to led them recently.

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

I believe that Samus saying that the Space Pirates are feral was because she was referring specifically to the Space Pirates on the Bottle Ship that were not only raised without any sort of education but also had very extensive cybernetic modification, which probably didn't help with their sanity.

Quote from the game's transcript: "Say that the Zebesians, under Ridley's influence, became super-aggressive... Would that really lead to the resurrection of the Space Pirates? Without a malicious force to lead them down that path, wouldn't they continue to merely follow their instincts, ultimately becoming no more than a swarm of feral creatures?"

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I gotcha, i gotcha

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

That sounds like an statement aimed at Space Pirates in general rather than the small amounts of them on the Bottle Ship.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I feel like a group of creatures can be sentient, but still feral. Like they'd just be a horde of barbarians, rather than an organized criminal group unless they had Mother Brain leading them, especially since the quote implies that, like the other creatures on the ship, they'd only be that aggressive because of Ridley.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Feral implies that they become mindless beasts; which they clearly aren't. Space Pirates and Zebesians have always been quite smart.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Evem if that's the case, it still feels to me like the quote is specifically referring to the Bottle Ship Zebesians, which wouldn't have been anything more than animals due to being cloned, tampered with, and raised as mindless bioweapons.

 

[SomebodyData]

That was a pretty general statement, the only evidence against it would be the Smash Bros Trophy from what I can find. Which needless to say is non-canon (Also lol at the idea that Metroid Prime and Dark Samus are two seperate individuals according to Smash).

Not to mention, the Bottle Ship Zebesians were explicitly made to be black-ops agents, which is the exact opposite of what a feral group of pirates would be able to do.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

They were made to be general bioweapons, like the Metroids were, and were probably just intended to be dropped in where they'd kill everything in sight. And that quote is specifically referring to the abnormally aggressive Zebesians that Samus had just killed.

I would say that she's implying that on their own, the Zebesians are just like any other species of sentient life, when under Ridley's influence they become more aggressive (or feral in the case of the tampered Bottle Ship specimens), and under the guidance of a malevolent leader like MB they become more organized and much more dangerous.

 

[SomebodyData]

The Metroids were actually going to be controlled by MB if I remember correctly, not sure if that's a good example. And the Pirates were explicitly stated to be for a Special Forces modeled after the original Space Pirates.

Not to mention Ridley never had such influence in the manga or other lifeforms anyways, and Other M later then says it was actually MB.

Because apparently Samus doesn't know Ridley's abilities at that point.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

How does that affect me using Metroids as an example? And the fact that they were going to be a special forces necessitated the creation of MB. It makes more sense to create a less intelligent, but more obedient version of the creature you're trying to mind control.

Samus has only ever fought Ridley when other fighting was happening, so there wouldn't have been much outright evidence that he's increasing everything's aggression.