Metal vs Ghoul

[Arkenis]

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Imaginos Body: 68.91 Tons, 95.46 Tons with blades	Tokyo Ghoul: 74 Tons

Equal Speed
Kakuja is restricted and 7C is restricted

Alita: Jackof_noTrades068, DavidTPPM, Arkenis, Nonynho, Foriaa, AthelChan, MannyQ361
Kaneki:

 

[AppleMaker]

Bumping for interest

 

[NikHelton]

Following

 

[AppleMaker]

Following

Good luck winning this one

 

[NikHelton]

Good luck winning this one

What are their wincons?

 

[Arkenis]

Alita just blows his head off with her Hertza or destroys his body with it and skill stomps. Kaneki's LS can make him tear her apart to win, that'll be hard with greater senses and also can just blow his kagune apart with Hertza or cut through it.

 

[Foriaa]

Is there any reason Kaneki would attempt to dodge Herzta rather than attempting to take it head on?

 

[Arkenis]

You can't really dodge it, all she needs is a touch to send it through your body and destroy from the inside.

 

[Foriaa]

Do you mind showing the extent of damage it does? It says it can destroy the heart or brain, but Kaneki has Mid regen.

 

[Arkenis]

 

[Foriaa]

Huh, interesting. Her AP is about 30% higher with swords, supposedly skill stomps, can one shot with Hertza, can also perceive time far slower than usual, has shockwaves that can easily cover Kaneki's surface area. How would Kaneki hit her? You mention that he the higher LS, but her analytical prediction and perception of time makes it ridiculously hard, nearly impossible for a shot to land. Is there any weakness to it that's not listed?

 

[Arkenis]

Huh, interesting. Her AP is about 30% higher with swords, supposedly skill stomps, can one shot with Hertza, can also perceive time far slower than usual, has shockwaves that can easily cover Kaneki's surface area. How would Kaneki hit her? You mention that he the higher LS, but her analytical prediction and perception of time makes it ridiculously hard, nearly impossible for a shot to land. Is there any weakness to it that's not listed?

Perceiving time is a hinder to her actually, it messes up her actions, but Kaneki has that too so I don't see why point it out. Shockwaves aren't gonna kill him and all he has to do is dodge the punch, the shockwaves should be weaker from afar. He'd hit her same way she'd hit him, at close range. Kaneki's got analytial prediction too, he should be capable of reacting, just not better than her.

Kaneki should be able to hear the hertza as well, so I'd assume he'd hear that and think he's gotta avoid it. Just will be hard since she's a better fighter.

 

[Foriaa]

but Kaneki has that too so I don't see why point it out.

Where is that on his profile?

Kaneki's got analytial prediction too, he should be capable of reacting, just not better than her.

Can Kaneki's resistance to analytical prediction work on her?

Kaneki should be able to hear the hertza as well, so I'd assume he'd hear that and think he's gotta avoid it.

This doesn't really follow, yes he'd hear it, but why would it make him think that he'd have to dodge it, rather than doing what he usually does of placing his Kagune between him.

 

[Arkenis]

I added the perception thing Alita has, the link broke but here it's here on page "Enhanced Awareness - Sight - Should have the same perception as Yoko did; "

Where is that on his profile?

Ghoul page under Kagune abilities.

Can Kaneki's resistance to analytical prediction work on her?

Not at all, two of her ap's work by that function to some extent either reading his moves or reading his mind. Her ki sensing could let her sense micro fluctuations, so she'd know he's gonna make a change to his kagune, but that required her full output unless she's in the zone so to speak like in the first series.

This doesn't really follow, yes he'd hear it, but why would it make him think that he'd have to dodge it, rather than doing what he usually does of placing his Kagune between him.

Hopefully he thinks "what's this sound coming from her hand, I'd better be more cautious" and just retreat completely. Unless you're suggesting Kaneki's just an abc fighter and won't think on the fly against an unknown fighter?

 

[Foriaa]

Ghoul page under Kagune abilities.

Seems pretty weird to be labeled as perception amping, seems more so that Kaneki is is heightening his senses and recording the action/time to counteract. Can't really argue against it here since it was already accepted.

Not at all, two of her ap's work by that function to some extent either reading his moves or reading his mind. Her ki sensing could let her sense micro fluctuations, so she'd know he's gonna make a change to his kagune, but that required her full output unless she's in the zone so to speak like in the first series.

How does she deal with multiple attacks, is there any instances of her fighting/dodging multiple things at once?

Unless you're suggesting Kaneki's just an abc fighter and won't think on the fly against an unknown fighter?

No one who read TG would claim Kaneki's an ABC fighter, but like the matchup you made with Killy, they're dealing with someone thats unknown to them, that seemingly looks defendable. The image you sent looks like Hertza is an explosion, from that alone Kaneki's most likely conclusion is to draw out his Kagune and place it infront of him.

 

[Arkenis]

How does she deal with multiple attacks, is there any instances of her fighting/dodging multiple things at once?

Yeah she blocked/evaded dozens of punches at close range pretty effortlessly since the guy was somewhat slower but even if someone's on her level or above she's shown to block or stop them.

So I'd say even halving it, she's able to block/evade 20 punches in an instance.

She also countered this to an extent.

No one who read TG would claim Kaneki's an ABC fighter, but like the matchup you made with Killy, they're dealing with someone thats unknown to them, that seemingly looks defendable. The image you sent looks like Hertza is an explosion, from that alone Kaneki's most likely conclusion is to draw out his Kagune and place it infront of him.

Yeah exactly if they're unknown then defending how he'd normally defend should probably be second guessed no? Defendable as in blocking, but blocking still leads to the hertza being placed in the body and destroying him. At best he senses this and cuts off that part of the kagune before it has time to travel all over his body.

Edit: Herzta isn't just an explosion, it's an explosion from the inside that's placed in through vibrations from her hands or fingers.

 

[Arkenis]

This is also SBA, so they start out at 4kms. Should give them time to assess their opponent more and figure out if they wanna go into battle how they always do or if they wanna think.

 

[Foriaa]

Yeah exactly if they're unknown then defending how he'd normally defend should probably be second guessed no?

This isn't something we can derive from the manga since Kaneki is aware of Kagune and conventional weapons, hearing sound alone is not a compelling argument for why he'd think he would have to dodge it or die.

At best he senses this and cuts off that part of the kagune before it has time to travel all over his body.

If at best this is all he can do, surely Alita being capable of skill stomping him would find a way around this, no? Or is she a sheep that would continuously use the same move in the same manner knowing it won't be effective?

Yeah she blocked/evaded dozens of punches at close range pretty effortlessly since the guy was somewhat slower but even if someone's on her level or above she's shown to block or stop them.

Best case scenario for Kaneki here is that their analytical ability cancels out, however her description of perceiving time is a lot better than Kanekis. I'll wait for more arguments, wondering what Nik would say against it.

Btw, is Hertza a trump card ability or is it something she'd use at any given opportunity, and does she use it multiple times in a fight?

 

[Arkenis]

This isn't something we can derive from the manga since Kaneki is aware of Kagune and conventional weapons, hearing sound alone is not a compelling argument for why he'd think he would have to dodge it or die.

He's a smart person though? Are you really suggesting Kaneki won't think twice about this after hearing an odd sound from her hand heading for his body? Really?

If at best this is all he can do, surely Alita being capable of skill stomping him would find a way around this, no? Or is she a sheep that would continuously use the same move in the same manner knowing it won't be effective?

Yeah she'd probably go in closer, slice off his kagunes and try delivering smaller ones across his body which even another panzer kunst didn't notice.

Btw, is Hertza a trump card ability or is it something she'd use at any given opportunity, and does she use it multiple times in a fight?

Something she'd used at any opportunity and yea she uses it multiple times.

 

[Foriaa]

He's a smart person though? Are you really suggesting Kaneki won't think twice about this after hearing an odd sound from her hand heading for his body? Really?

I think he'd think twice about it, but whether he'd think to dodge it is different. Say it does register to him that it is indeed dangerous enough for him that he'd need to dodge before taking lethal damage, shouldn't Hertza already be hitting at this point? Does it have some charge up?

Something she'd used at any opportunity

One tap ability, better skill and better informational analysis? I think even Nik would have to agree that Alita would kill him in under a minute

 

[Arkenis]

I think he'd think twice about it, but whether he'd think to dodge it is different. Say it does register to him that it is indeed dangerous enough for him that he'd need to dodge before taking lethal damage, shouldn't Hertza already be hitting at this point? Does it have some charge up?

Alita can send it off any time so no real charge up, but he'll hear the split second before being touched and hopefully dodges right. It won't hit until she touches him.

One tap ability, better skill and better informational analysis? I think even Nik would have to agree that Alita would kill him in under a minute

All true. He also potentially has a one shot if he can land it.

 

[Foriaa]

He also potentially has a one shot if he can land it.

That is?

 

[Arkenis]

That is?

His LS. He's got greater range at close range and can easily grip her leg or arm.

 

[Foriaa]

I remember peeping somewhere that you need both LS and AP superiority to one tap like that. Her dura is up to 95 tons, his AP is is only 74, can he still rip her limbs off?

 

[Arkenis]

Could be wrong but this small difference won't be enough, she's not even 2x more durable than his ap.

 

[Foriaa]

while i don't thinks she’s durable enough to no sell his attacks, having 30% higher dura, one taps at any given time and much better perception makes this nearly a mismatch. i was going to say change keys but she just straight jumps to 6-b so that can’t even happen

 

[Arkenis]

Mismatch? Nah. It's just a close match. 30% dura is negligible, those one taps require her getting in close to someone who can rip her apart at any moment.

 

[Foriaa]

rip her apart at any moment makes it sound like it can actually happen, above we discussed why that’s nearly impossible. 30% is def not negligible, i don’t think she’s going to be no selling his attacks or anything, but she’d obviously be taking reduced damaged from it

 

[Arkenis]

rip her apart at any moment makes it sound like it can actually happen, above we discussed why that’s nearly impossible. 30% is def not negligible, i don’t think she’s going to be no selling his attacks or anything, but she’d obviously be taking reduced damaged from it

It can happen at any moment, that moment's probability is just low. Her durability is just 1.29x greater so not much reduction. Nothing makes it a mismatch though, her one main advantage is skill, but if that was all it took for mismatch then idt we'd have tons of matches be accepted. Lets wait for more people though.

 

[NikHelton]

I'm not entirely sure how Alita's trump card works. Is it a ranged attack or the aftermath of a direct hit? If the object explodes as it extends, then Kaneki has a chance of realizing it and dealing with it.

For now, I'm leaning more toward Alita.

However, how will she counter a kagune that has a speed advantage and resists normal prediction?

 

[Arkenis]

I'm not entirely sure how Alita's trump card works. Is it a ranged attack or the aftermath of a direct hit? If the object explodes as it extends, then Kaneki has a chance of realizing it and dealing with it.

she has vibrations in her body that she can send through her hand, she touches you and sends them into your body, they detonate and explode from inside by attacking inside.

However, how will she counter a kagune that has a speed advantage and resists normal prediction?

She can read the kagunes changes through mind or micro fluctuations. She can enhance her speed too. If I'm not mistaken the speed amps on Kaneki's page are with Kakuja, so he doesn't have access to it here.

 

[DavidTPPM]

However, how will she counter a kagune that has a speed advantage

The speed difference isn't really that big.

and resists normal prediction?

It doesn't really "resist normal predictions". There's multiple way to predict moves.

Alita uses both physical and mental predictors and Kagunes unusual physiology only makes physical predictors harder to judge. So she should still be able to read Kanekis kagune attacks pretty comfortably

 

[Foriaa]

Her durability is just 1.29x greater so not much reduction.

You keep mentioning this, and I keep responding by saying the same thing. The point of me bringing her durability up is to mention that it would make a difference in the context of this fight. If someone had an ability where they took 30% reduced damage from an attack, that would make a difference, I'm not saying it's large enough where she can start taking attacks with no repercussion.

her one main advantage is skill

You said above that she "skill stomps", meaning that Kaneki has no chance at beating her via skill. She has a move that Kaneki would have no knowledge on, with no strong basis for believing that he'd find it that threatening to where he'd rip his Kagune off or even move out of the way to dodge it.

but if that was all it took for mismatch then idt we'd have tons of matches be accepted.

If a match has a character with :

1. Superior AP/Dura
2. Comparable range
3. Skill "stomps"
4. One taps
5. Better analytical hax
6. Speed amps

Then yes, the match wouldn't be viable. You restricted Kaneki's Kakuja, you must of thought that this was Kaneki in his Post-Dragon key for you to think he can deal with someone getting multiple times faster mid fight, he can't.

 

[Foriaa]

Was going to say swap to a different Alita character, but the whole verse has the same line of either being 8-b or just jumping to 6-b

 

[Arkenis]

You keep mentioning this, and I keep responding by saying the same thing. The point of me bringing her durability up is to mention that it would make a difference in the context of this fight. If someone had an ability where they took 30% reduced damage from an attack, that would make a difference, I'm not saying it's large enough where she can start taking attacks with no repercussion.

Its not and we don't treat such a small difference as relevant enough.

You said above that she "skill stomps", meaning that Kaneki has no chance at beating her via skill. She has a move that Kaneki would have no knowledge on, with no strong basis for believing that he'd find it that threatening to where he'd rip his Kagune off or even move out of the way to dodge it.

Sorry, but I'm not buying Kaneki won't believe that a weird sound coming from inside someone's arm won't set off alarms in his head to go "yeah nah **** let me not let that touch me". I mean really, is Kaneki braindead to you? Is he so low in terms of intelligence you can't imagine him making the decision to be more cautious against the unknown?

Then yes, the match wouldn't be viable. You restricted Kaneki's Kakuja, you must of thought that this was Kaneki in his Post-Dragon key for you to think he can deal with someone getting multiple times faster mid fight, he can't.

She doesn't really get faster, besides the punch which is just a strong punch with shockwaves equal to his own range, won't matter. And her top speed isn't something she just whips out, even against Caerula she didn't do it.

1. Superior AP/Dura
2. Comparable range
3. Skill "stomps"
4. One taps
5. Better analytical hax
6. Speed amps

Doesn't have superior ap/dura that its noticeable. Comparable range is a point to unviability how? Skill stomps happen all the time, doesn't make the match unviable, I literally did a match with Pochita vs Arima of all people. Kaneki can one tap, its just harder for him to pull off cuz he's facing someone with skill. Apparently Kaneki's kagune is a speed amp so not much of a point, both have it and Kaneki uses his first.

 

[Foriaa]

Sorry, but I'm not buying Kaneki won't believe that a weird sound coming from inside someone's arm won't set off alarms in his head to go "yeah nah **** let me not let that touch me". I mean really, is Kaneki braindead to you? Is he so low in terms of intelligence you can't imagine him making the decision to be more cautious against the unknown?

Can you actually provide a reason for why he would rather than repeating the same thing? Yes, it's going to make a noise, but Kaneki being cautious doesn't mean he'd have to dodge it, just make it so that something other than his body gets hit.

She doesn't really get faster, besides the punch which is just a strong punch with shockwaves equal to his own range, won't matter

Her page says that she does. It says higher with electromagnetic punch, and then several times faster with her top speed.

Comparable range is a point to unviability how?

With the other things she's superior in, you'd expect Kaneki to have something he'd be superior in, he doesn't. No, LS means nothing if he can't grab her even with barrages of Kagune.

Skill stomps happen all the time, doesn't make the match unviable, I literally did a match with Pochita vs Arima of all people.

If Arima can skill stomp, had higher AP, one taps etc, then of course, that matchup shouldn't have been done, but he doesn't. You present a character that can amplify their speeds several times, has a one tap that's far easier to hit, superior dura and ap + better informational hax, using the Arima example is genuinely horrid.

Apparently Kaneki's kagune is a speed amp so not much of a point, both have it and Kaneki uses his first.

While I agree with that, I don't see it on his profile.

 

[Foriaa]

This matchup is straight buns, I'm ngl to you. Feel free to respond to my points so that people can vote off the arguments. Unfollowing

 

[Arkenis]

Can you actually provide a reason for why he would rather than repeating the same thing? Yes, it's going to make a noise, but Kaneki being cautious doesn't mean he'd have to dodge it, just make it so that something other than his body gets hit.

I don't gotta say much, your argument boils down to nothing, so my response is just that Kaneki would realize its dangerous and think twice.

Her page says that she does. It says higher with electromagnetic punch, and then several times faster with her top speed.

Yeah mhm and I explained to you how that works. The punch is easily avoidable by dodging. Kaneki has equal range to it, or barely less, he can attack from range. She doesn't spam the punch either. Her top speed is not something she whips out right away, the page doesn't say this so idk why you're tryna assert this being a reason for stomp.

With the other things she's superior in, you'd expect Kaneki to have something he'd be superior in, he doesn't. No, LS means nothing if he can't grab her even with barrages of Kagune.

He can grab her, will just be hard. Doesn't make it a stomp, it makes the fight close because once he does, he should easily be able to tear her arm off leaving her disadvantaged and easier to kill. Why would you expect him to have something superior also?

If Arima can skill stomp, had higher AP, one taps etc, then of course, that matchup shouldn't have been done, but he doesn't. You present a character that can amplify their speeds several times, has a one tap that's far easier to hit, superior dura and ap + better informational hax, using the Arima example is genuinely horrid.

Alita skill stomps, has lower ap, one taps. Kaneki higher ap, higher ls, and can potentially one tap as well. I've explained to you the speed amps are irrelevant for her.

 

[Arkenis]

This matchup is straight buns, I'm ngl to you. Feel free to respond to my points so that people can vote off the arguments. Unfollowing

So are half the ones on Kaneki's page lmao, lets not talk about bad matches. I'll make another match for Kaneki if this gets dead though.

 

[Foriaa]

lets not talk about bad matches.

that's all cast and nik