Megami Tensei 1-A re-evaluation

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Alrighty:



The statement itself is framed as a possibility, yes. The fact it was mentioned as one at all is already worth of note, but nevertheless there is context from other parts of the verse that help solidify it. For example, the realm to which the 1-A statement is addressed is stated to lack directions entirely:



And the same verbiage is used to describe it later. It's described as having "no life or death, heaven or earth."



As one can gather from these scans, it is because this is a level in which everything dissolves into oneness, and therefore dualistic concepts such as Up/Down, Heaven/Earth and Life/Death don't apply there. In fact, as said in the above excerpt, any appearances of multiplicity there are virtual.

This alone already indicates that it has no dimensionality at all. So, of the two possibilities given to us in the text (It was a higher dimension vs It was something beyond even the concept of a higher dimension), clearly, the former seems to be on the losing end.

Furthermore, as we've already gone over, concepts in Megami Tensei are mind-constructed things, emanating from human minds as they shape reality. This is relevant because existence in Megami Tensei is, in fact, the Kabbalistic Tree of Life, and the tree, in turn, is stated to encompass all thought, all mental activity. Therefore, since all concepts, including the concept of dimensions, are a byproduct of mental activity, they ought to be somewhere in the Tree of Life.

Moreover, as already established, the realm that receives the 1-A statement is one of the Tree of Life's four layers. Specifically, it is the highest one, Atziluth, the archetypal world, and Atziluth has three facets: Kether, Chokmah and Binah, which are described as follows:





These descriptions are relevant because, as stated prior, Megami Tensei's cosmogony is one in which the universe is nothing but a reflection of humanity itself, and its stages of development are likewise the stages of development of the mind. In fact, the archetypal world (Referred to by the name "Kadath" here, as Persona 2 approaches it from primarily Lovecraft-themed lens, rather than Kabbalistic ones) is just the depths of humanity's collective unconscious, which is also called the foundation and beginning of the mind itself.

So, Kether, Chokmah and Binah (Which together form Atziluth) are just mechanisms of the mind, and more specifically the ones that give origin to its contents: Chokmah is the source of all intelligence, and "the inspiration, the revelation, the epiphany that triggers it, and also nothing less than the wisdom of God," which is to say that it represents the first spark of thought that arises in the mind. It's not anything in particular, but it's the potential for further things, and thus it is the "seed" of creation.

Binah comes after and, by contrast, is its complement: It is act of giving actual coherence to that unformed initial thought. Here, things are given "form" and thereby are sent downwards into the lower worlds, and thus it is the "womb" of creation.

So, any concepts borne of human minds whatsoever will arise from the interplay of these two, and since Atziluth is specifically beyond the concept of "dimensions," we know for certain that that one, at least, is among such concepts. This goes double for Kether, of course, since it is prior to both Chokmah and Binah and is pure, complete nothingness (Source: ゲーム攻略本 付録付)SFC 真・女神転生II 攻略の手引き). Hence Chokmah is described as "giving meaning to the divine power emanating from Kether," which is to say that Kether is such a primal level of reality that there is nothing there at all.

So, TL;DR Atziluth being beyond the concept of dimensions is very well-supported by the verse.

To add onto Ultima, and the fact that I’ve been meaning to reply to this. This old refutation neglects the presence of new evidence, considering the idea of movement at all only exists because it’s Serph only thinks anything is moving to begin with.



This rhetoric is further supported in Persona 4 Arena Ultimax, during Elizabeth’s story, where she describes the Collective Unconscious as a location where up and down are indefinite.

As I’m sure you know, every dimension builds off the axis of the one is supervenes on, so a two-dimensional creature can move left and right, a trait of a one-dimensional creature, while basking in its new axis, up and down. But isn’t the case here, as the four cardinal directions don’t exist whatsoever, evidenced by them transcending all possible coordinates to take.

Based on the conclusions from the two threads I linked, should we tier this at Low 1-A or 1-A?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

1-A. We simply need to fix the justifications. Something we planned, since the ratings are soon to be higher anyways.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

1-A. We simply need to fix the justifications. Something we planned, since the ratings are soon to be higher anyways.

You gave no explanation.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

You gave no explanation.

No explanation for what, exactly?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

No explanation for what, exactly?

Low 1-A or 1-A?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Low 1-A or 1-A?

1-A. All of me and Ultima’s comments have been in support of 1-A.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

1-A. All of me and Ultima’s comments have been in support of 1-A.

Explain why.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Explain why.

Are you being dense on purpose? What, exactly, do you think me and Ultima have been arguing in support of this entire time? He explicitly goes over the more technical parts of the tiering in his first response, and our further comments are in-series justification for it. I don’t know if you’ve been paying attention.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Are you being dense on purpose? What, exactly, do you think me and Ultima have been arguing in support of this entire time? He explicitly goes over the more technical parts of the tiering in his first response, and our further comments are in-series justification for it. I don’t know if you’ve been paying attention.

Stop accusing me. Fine, whatever.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Explain why.

If you’re unsure, you can check Ultima and Milly’s responses. They explain why

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Stop accusing me. Fine, whatever.

No, you read the thread. The fact that you have the utter gall to tell us to explain why, a requirement for this evaluation to begin with, and something we’ve been sitting on for two months for you to not have the slightest clue what any of it means and claim we gave no explanation is on you, not us. Do better.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

No, you read the thread. The fact that you have the utter gall to tell us to explain why, a requirement for this evaluation to begin with, and something we’ve been sitting on for two months for you to not have the slightest clue what any of it means and claim we gave no explanation is on you, not us. Do better.

Stop being unnecessarily rude. I already dropped the question.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Stop being unnecessarily rude. I already dropped the question.

Report me if you have an issue.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I left for 5 minutes. Come on.

Based on the conclusions from the two threads I linked, should we tier this at Low 1-A or 1-A?

DontTalk was unsure on whether to treat valid extrapolations of "Beyond dimensionality" as Low 1-A or 1-A, given some quirks in the math behind the Tiering System. Come this thread, though (Which was done after this one, I believe), and the most proper tier would be Low 1-A.

So, in this case, Chokmah and Binah, the "lower" and more manifest parts of Atziluth, would be Low 1-A, while Kether that stands above both would be 1-A. To my recollection, the vast majority of the profiles currently at 1-A scale from Kether, of course, and the ones that don't I believe are better left for the upcoming revisions for the verse (Which is indeed in dire need of it). So, regardless, nothing has to change at this moment.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I left for 5 minutes. Come on.


DontTalk was unsure on whether to treat valid extrapolations of "Beyond dimensionality" as Low 1-A or 1-A, given some quirks in the math behind the Tiering System. Come this thread, though (Which was done after this one, I believe), and the most proper tier would be Low 1-A.

So, in this case, Chokmah and Binah, the "lower" and more manifest parts of Atziluth, would be Low 1-A, while Kether that stands above both would be 1-A. To my recollection, the vast majority of the profiles currently at 1-A scale from Kether, of course, and the ones that don't I believe are better left for the upcoming revisions for the verse (Which is indeed in dire need of it). So, regardless, nothing has to change at this moment.

With this closing statement, I'll now take the liberty to lock this.

@Milly_Rocking_Bandit Though I will lastly make note that the tone which you took above was indeed not at all necessary.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Was closed already, but as others said. I think the solid 1-A rating is fine to keep. Also, this is a verse specific thread and not a wiki wide revision that's attempting to revise and entire policy or something. So it's not like Bureaucrats override the numerous users more informed on the topic including various other Admins and/or former staff.