MCU downgrade

[NikHelton]

In this thread, I would like to discuss 2 points that seem to me extremely controversial:

1) The speed of the characters;
2) Mid tiers strength level;


==============

1) Not so long ago there was a revision of the speed ratings in Marvel Comics. Half of the characters were downgraded from MHS+ to Hypersonic because the speed rating was an outlier and did not correspond to the essence of what was happening.
In the MCU, we can observe a similar situation.
Almost every character has an MHS+ reaction rating. Although the funny thing is that actually not everyone. Needless to say, there won't be a thousand-fold difference in reaction between Daredevil and Hawkeye?
MHS+ seems unnatural and silly considering that the main feats performed by mid tier are within subsonic-supersonic. Bullets are a serious test for them and they prefer to leave the line of fire before the shot is fired.
I believe that the speed of the verse should be revised




2) Mid tiers are scaled to Loki, which withstands Iron Man shots (Low 7-C).
Needless to say, a normal repulsor shot shouldn't scale up to an ultimatum suit attack when Tony himself puts his life at risk by being near an explosion?
Loki has an 8-B strength calculation and we can use it.
Moreover, the presence of Low 7-C in the Guardians of the Galaxy is ridiculous when Quill is depicted as a 10-A with increased strength, and Gamora dies from falling from the height of a multi-storey building.

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

Iron Man's Low 7-C Rating doesn't come from the shockwave he made in Iron Man 2 but this calc

 

[NikHelton]

What grounds do we have to scale Loki to a random Iron Man shot?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

https://media.tenor.com/yBFx7v8GXSsAAAAC/joe-pesci-what-the-****.gif

 

[NikHelton]

https://media.tenor.com/yBFx7v8GXSsAAAAC/joe-pesci-what-the-****.gif

??

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

What grounds do we have to scale Loki to a random Iron Man shot?

He survives being shot my Iron Man (two times even)

 

[NikHelton]

He survives being shot my Iron Man (two times even)

Yes, they were random shots from the repulsor.
Not every IM attack is Low 7-C. As far as I remember in Civil War, Captain America withstood shots from the repulsor and survived

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

Yes, they were random shots from the repulsor.
Not every IM attack is Low 7-C. As far as I remember in Civil War, Captain America withstood shots from the repulsor and survived

the Civil War armor is a non-combat armor and thus weaker than the other armors

 

[RoTt35]

Yes, they were random shots from the repulsor.
Not every IM attack is Low 7-C. As far as I remember in Civil War, Captain America withstood shots from the repulsor and survived

The Mark 46 is a noncombat armor. And Loki literally wanted to conquer Earth and had killed his friend Coulson, Iron Man had no reason to hold back

 

[NikHelton]

The Mark 46 is a noncombat armor. And Loki literally wanted to conquer Earth and had killed his friend Coulson, Iron Man had no reason to hold back

The repulsor attack still seems random. Tony was not serious, did not seek to finish off, did not intend to use the whole arsenal.
This is not enough to scale

 

[Emerald]

10-A Peter Quill is so goofy. Didn’t he overpower Iron Spider in IW?

 

[NikHelton]

10-A Peter Quill is so goofy. Didn’t he overpower Iron Spider in IW?

Um... no? He immobilized him with chains, and then put a gun to his temple

 

[CharlesZaGreat]

The Guardians scale directly to 817.66 tons of TNT feat, so it not that far fetched

 

[Emerald]

Ok, yea rewatching the scene Quill immobilized Spidey with tech. He only just kicked Iron Spider away, and threatened to kill him with his blasters
Still Quill took a more powerful blast that killed a guy thats Loki level

 

[Emerald]

Also Gamora falling and dying is a bad anti feat
Fiction constantly makes falling being extremelly deadly even for characters that have Tier 8 feats. Its no different to how bullets are considered deadly
Its just fiction being fiction

 

[Therefir]

I personally don't think most MCU characters are MHS+ (specially peak humans like Black Widow), but the problem comes from the fact that anyone can keep up with each other, it's not like Thor or Thanos are moving much faster than other weaker characters.

 

[Therefir]

As for the anti-feat fall, in the vast majority of fiction falling is extremely overrated, in GoW Ragnarok even characters near Kratos' level are depicted as susceptible to fall damage, that doesn't mean they are just Street level.

 

[Tyranno223]

it's not like Thor or Thanos are moving much faster than other weaker characters.

We do at least have the AoU Quicksilver scenes which show Thor to be moving decently faster than Iron Man or Cap.

 

[Emerald]

He’s shown to be faster but not by an overwhelming degree

 

[Hellbeast]

TBH I could see Mid Tiers getting X tier, likely MHS as a compromise, putting emphasis on their main feats while acknowledging that higher scaling

 

[Qawsedf234]

The speed stuff I get, since like the comics it's not a consistent speed rating and relies on downscaling from other characters.

The AP stuff though, I'm not really getting. Captain America / Bucky never fought a full powered Iron Man to my knowledge.

 

[Oscar]

Wow, next to the Marvel vs. Capcom nerf thread, this is one of the dumbest threads I've read on the wiki and with arguments written with paws

 

[Propellus]

I mean, I can see what you mean on the MHS+ speed rating, but I'll stay neutral to leaning towards agreeing. And I disagree with downgrading the Low 7-C Loki as he still consistently survives repulsor blasts from Iron Man, but as for the Low 7-C GotG, I have no idea how the powerscaling works for them.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Alright so "but the shots are random!" For Loki scaling is... *****. Just pure *****. You'd pretty much have to prove his shots, the shit he spams 24/7 are variable on a guy who JUST threw him head-first through safety glass on one occasion and was proclaiming his superiority the other, but hey, I guess if you want to say that a blast of Tony's shots with damn near the same amount of charge up as a blast that damaged his own armor is "random" go ahead.

I don't much care about the rest but Loki is certainly Low 7-C in Durability, and solidly so, the 8-Cs can't do shit to him and the 7-B Hulk thrashed him, so yeah.

One thing I will say is you can argue Quill to scale to Iron Spider physically, if I recall the MCU is pretty consistent about its no-sells, but yeah.

 

[Hellbeast]

Wait why is Hulk 7-B, I thought he was 6-B

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I can see [X rating via feats], likely/possibly [powerscaling rating] for Hawkeye and Widow and the like.

10-A Star-Lord and the argument against Loki’s scaling is very silly though.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Wait why is Hulk 7-B, I thought he was 6-B

6-B is Ragnarök hulk, Avengers Hulk is 7-B

 

[KLOL506]

I personally do not agree with MHS street tiers in any sense of the word, save for Bucky/Cap/BP/Spidey/God-tier level people (But they apparently scale to higher feats now).

The other arguments are extremely silly, however, especially the Civil War argument, because of reasons the others said.

 

[KLOL506]

GotG shit is weird to be, to me, they'd be Spidey tier at best.

 

[Reyne]

Ok, yea rewatching the scene Quill immobilized Spidey with tech. He only just kicked Iron Spider away, and threatened to kill him with his blasters
Still Quill took a more powerful blast that killed a guy thats Loki level

Scaling to the Other has always been something I don't agree with. Even in the group I have most of my discussions with, they assume The Other is a physical peer of Loki, which isn't necessarily what Gunn implied. As far as I'm aware, The Other has only displayed hax of some kind. It's very shaky to use as justification for base Ronan being that high.

That leads into the Guardians scaling to Ronan's Power Stone amped Cosmic Rod. I don't see how this is A) a plot contrivance given Ronan has only ever wanted to kill them, and B) an anti feat given Star Lord can be accosted by Sakkarans and casually knocked out by the Mk6 War Machine armor, which was rendered inoperable by debree from the Avengers Compound (it has no other scaling and was literally designed to fit into the scenes with Nebula instead of the massive Iron Patriot Mk2). Power Stone scaling in general also brings with some issues, as there is no set minimum for power output, and should thus only backscale from other feats. Drax and Nebula are tankier than Star Lord, and yet he takes no more damage than they do from Thanos (who we all know wasn't aiming to kill); less plot contrivance, and more so just inconsistent power output.

I don't see how Quill scales to Ego's energy as if he didn't have a connection to it.

 

[RoTt35]

GotG shit is weird to be, to me, they'd be Spidey tier at best.

But they aren't, Ego's avatar casually did this, Gamora's sword can kill Asgardians, and Rocket's weapons are more powerful than it and can knock down Korg, all the Guardians were just briefly knocked down by Ronan's Cosmi-Rod, while a casual attack one-shot The Other, who is stated by WoG to be very powerful even in comparison to Loki

 

[KLOL506]

But they aren't, Ego's avatar casually did this, Gamora's sword can kill Asgardians, and Rocket's weapons are more powerful than it and can knock down Korg, all the Guardians were briefly knocked down by Ronan's Cosmi-Rod, while a casual attack one-shot The Other, who is stated by WoG to be very powerful even in comparison to Loki

Damn, y'all been cooking shit for the Guardians.

 

[NikHelton]

I can understand scaling GOtG to the level of Captain America, but scaling them above Iron Man is sur

 

[DaReaperMan]

I can understand scaling GOtG to the level of Captain America, but scaling them above Iron Man is sur

Sur?

As in Sur yes sur? What?

 

[NikHelton]

But they aren't, Ego's avatar casually did this, Gamora's sword can kill Asgardians, and Rocket's weapons are more powerful than it and can knock down Korg, all the Guardians were just briefly knocked down by Ronan's Cosmi-Rod, while a casual attack one-shot The Other, who is stated by WoG to be very powerful even in comparison to Loki

Ego's attack doesn't necessarily have to scale up to its durability.
Gamora's weapons and Missiles are a separate key.
All these feats do not show the physical characteristics of the characters.

Ronan's attacks are a directed shockwave. The other took it in person, while the Starlord took it from a great distance.

Moreover, the strength of the Other could imply his tactics and hacks. This is not the Hulk who came to win by physical force

 

[NikHelton]

Sur?

As in Sur yes sur? What?

Surrealism.
Sorry - the translator can't handle the catch phrases.
I mean, it's stupid.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Ego's attack doesn't necessarily have to scale up to its durability.
Gamora's weapons and Missiles are a separate key.
All these feats do not show the physical characteristics of the characters.

Ronan's attacks are a directed shockwave. The other took it in person, while the Starlord took it from a great distance.

Moreover, the strength of the Other could imply his tactics and hacks. This is not the Hulk who came to win by physical force

This


Low 7-C never sat well with me considering the insane amount of outliers present in all 3 movies

 

[RoTt35]

Ego's attack doesn't necessarily have to scale up to its durability.

Star-Lord and Rocket survived his blows, and it's stated that Ego attacked them with everything he had

Gamora's weapons and Missiles are a separate key.

Gamora doesn't have any keys, plus they scale from characters that can withstand their weaponry like Korath, Adam Warlock and the High Evolutionary

Ronan's attacks are a directed shockwave. The other took it in person, while the Starlord took it from a great distance.

I don't see why that matters but Rocket also survived an attack similar to the one that one-shot The Other

Moreover, the strength of the Other could imply his tactics and hacks. This is not the Hulk who came to win by physical force

This is just headcannon, The Other never demonstrated any kind of hax, and the statement is pretty clear in highlighting Ronan's strength: "We’ve had the Other, who’s obviously very powerful even in comparison to Loki, and then we see Ronan wipe his ass with him"

 

[Emerald]

We’ve had the Other, who’s obviously very powerful even in comparison to Loki, and then we see Ronan wipe his ass with him

Yea this already proves that :
Ronan > Other > Loki, quite blatantly

 

[Reyne]

Yea this already proves that :
Ronan > Other > Loki, quite blatantly

The thing about that statement is Gunn says "obviously", as if we were shown his great power. When we saw The Other in The Avengers, it was through a mental connection via the septre. So this is from Loki's perspective. He super speeds over to Loki, then makes a threat of pain, followed by a quick touch that makes Loki jolt his head in pain. So this great power that we're supposed to know of is just pain inducement. The reason I bring up the speed bit is because this could mean the Cosmic Rod is faster than The Other, who is a blurr to Loki. This could be a useful bit of scaling come The Marvels, being as Dar-Benn has her own Cosmic Rod.