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As I stated in another thread, the AP for his shield should be Multi-City Block Level for damaging Ultron.
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MCU Captain America's Shield AP
- Thread starter Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan
- Start date
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Captain America's shield is a weapon. It's made of Vibranium which in the MCU is basically just a mixture of Adamantium and Vibranium from the comics. It's far more durable then any other metal and can break most things on contact with it.
The force of the wielder is definitely important, but the material of the swing is far greater in this case. It's one thing to swing at someone with a tree branch, it's another to swing at them with a bat made of the hardest and most durable metal in existence, which is simultaneously quite light.
The Comicbook Shield is also like that, it shatters most thing Cap pushes it against, like Tony's armor, metal doors, walls, trees, and Cap has even used it sideways as a slicing weapon many times (It once cut Ultron's Adamantium neck).
The force of the wielder is definitely important, but the material of the swing is far greater in this case. It's one thing to swing at someone with a tree branch, it's another to swing at them with a bat made of the hardest and most durable metal in existence, which is simultaneously quite light.
The Comicbook Shield is also like that, it shatters most thing Cap pushes it against, like Tony's armor, metal doors, walls, trees, and Cap has even used it sideways as a slicing weapon many times (It once cut Ultron's Adamantium neck).
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So I think we should upgrade comic Cap's shield AP too?
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I dunno. He can definitely harm 8-A people like Iron Man, Loki, Ultron Drones and the like with it. He even staggers Thor somewhat with it.
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Well, we probably have to consider a great amount of plot-induced stupidity in play if comicbook Captain America hurts Thor.
Anyway, Bruce Reb is technically correct in that the force behind the impact (along with how thin an attack is, for slicing purposes, but there are extreme limits to this as well) should be a deciding factor in real life, but in Marvel Comics logic is recurrently completely ignored, as shown whenever Wolverine slices up Thor, Hulk, or Thanos.
Anyway, Bruce Reb is technically correct in that the force behind the impact (along with how thin an attack is, for slicing purposes, but there are extreme limits to this as well) should be a deciding factor in real life, but in Marvel Comics logic is recurrently completely ignored, as shown whenever Wolverine slices up Thor, Hulk, or Thanos.
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I know the material of the shield is Vibranium. The material of the weapon is important because mass comes into account while measuring force (Force=Mass*Velocity)
Still, considering Cap has had a hard time beating Loki's street pawns (with his shield) during the first Avengers movie, and struggled with oponents incomparable to Ultron in other films aswell, needing a full on beating and help from Bucky to neutralize a lightly armed, unprepared Iron Man, I stand firmly by my suspicion that him damaging Ultron is simply PIS.
I also fail to see how different incarnations of the character come into play here. We're specifically talking about MCU's Captain America.
Still, considering Cap has had a hard time beating Loki's street pawns (with his shield) during the first Avengers movie, and struggled with oponents incomparable to Ultron in other films aswell, needing a full on beating and help from Bucky to neutralize a lightly armed, unprepared Iron Man, I stand firmly by my suspicion that him damaging Ultron is simply PIS.
I also fail to see how different incarnations of the character come into play here. We're specifically talking about MCU's Captain America.
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Vibranium and Adamantium-made weapons can damage people far above the person who's wielding them's tier. This is not just a Marvel thing, it's really common in fiction for characters to obtain weapons that allow them to destroy people way stronger than them, with the force of the person behind the swing not mattering much.
However, I agree that Captain America hurting Thor in the comics is PIS. Him breaking Iron Man's armor with shield probably isn't, though.
And Wolverine is stabbing everyone who isn't named Sentry or Silver Surfer all the time.
However, I agree that Captain America hurting Thor in the comics is PIS. Him breaking Iron Man's armor with shield probably isn't, though.
And Wolverine is stabbing everyone who isn't named Sentry or Silver Surfer all the time.
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Well, the point is that the force of the swing should logically be a deciding factor, and an 8-C or so level character slicing up a 4-B with a weapon that does not in any way increase the striking power through magic, cosmic power, or the like, and is simply very hard, does technically qualify as massive amounts of plot-induced stupidity.
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It's just a character having a Higher AP than his Normal Strength due to a special weapon. There's nothing to overthink about it, honestly.
Yes, the weapon is made out of science and not magic, but the science of Vibranium and Adamantium already breaks physics anyways.
Yes, the weapon is made out of science and not magic, but the science of Vibranium and Adamantium already breaks physics anyways.
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I disagree. Adamantium does not have any special powers other than being extremely hard. Can it logically slice through less hard materials? Yes. Should a character trillions of times weaker than another logically be able to do so? No.
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I'm not even talking about slicing. I'm talking about Cap being unable to even dent Iron Man's armor with his punches but being able to crack it with a Shield Bash or Throw.
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I agree with Matthew Schroeder.
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Yes, I agree that Wolverine's Adamantium Claws is Durability Bypassing. Cap's shield I dunno.
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Why are Wolverine's claws Durability bypassing?
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https://youtu.be/7j3Pu_xCjMo?t=26s Well, Bucky definitely didn't have a very hard time breaking the armor without the shield, really.
On the subject of Wolverine's claws bypassing durability, we could argue that it could be because of the material they're made out of. Since other metals (like lead) can't do the same damage blunt force or slicing can.
On the subject of Wolverine's claws bypassing durability, we could argue that it could be because of the material they're made out of. Since other metals (like lead) can't do the same damage blunt force or slicing can.
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Iron Man's armour was weaker than the previous ones in Civil War. Cap is MCB however because he kicked his shield into Prime Ultron.
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Because Wolverine is a very popular character, so Marvel goes with "rule of cool" plot convenience for him. We have written this ability to bypass durability as an actual power within his profile.
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The actual explanation is that Adamantium is so hard / dense that it can pierce through virtually anything, specially in such a precise and sharp way like Wolverine's claws, so he can usually pierce characters who endure Planet-Destroying explosions just fine.
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See this actually favors my point, though. Because Bucky and Cap needed a mutual beating and an insane amount of effort to take down an Iron Man that was (according to admittedly you, the one favoring the upgrade) far below 8-A, and that was using the shield. It makes my suspicion of Captain America kicking his shield into Prime Ultron being PIS credible.Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
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Insane amount of effort? With the shield I doubt Cap need an insane amount of effort.
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He easily pierced the suit with his shield when he was already shot multiple times by Iron Man.
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Yes. When he threw Iron Man to the ground he picked up the shield and stabbed the arc reactor, we see the shield had pierced the titanium on the armour.
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Bucky was ripping the arc reactor but not the titanium on the suit. You see that Captain America's shield also damaged the titanium around the arc reactor.
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Also I believe what Matthew meant was shield throws, not hits.
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https://youtu.be/7j3Pu_xCjMo?t=3m13s That changes nothing I believe.
Cap seems logically unable of generating that much force even by MCU rules. Feels like plot convenience really.
Cap seems logically unable of generating that much force even by MCU rules. Feels like plot convenience really.
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Sharp objects tend to do damage more than Captain America's fists. Captain America was unable even to dent Ultron with his punches but yes with his shield. Also powerscaling in Civil War is pretty iffy.
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