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Guys, let's not beat the dead horse. It's honestly in poor taste and can just be plain rude. What's done is done
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MASSIVE Tekken Downgrades
- Thread starter Continuum19
- Start date
- Status
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I'm sorry I feel no remorse for people who belittle other by calling them names
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Just cease, you don't need to say that at all
Go back to what we're supposed to do now
DivineAura44
He/Him- 5,288
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That doesn't give you the right to derail this thread doing the exact same.
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*Continues by derailing further
I didn't even start the derailing, but I can voice my opinion on the matter
Now that that's over I think the purpose of this thread has been completed all we need to do now is change the profiles
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- Thread starter
- #606
Nah dude.
I feel absolutely no guilt over what happened.
It's obvious that BlackDarkness is a huge Tekken fan but that doesn't excuse his behavior.
He was insulting the intelligence of me and several other members of the community while simultaneously spreading ridiculous conspiracy theories.
It's not normal.
I was pretty salty when Street Fighter got downgraded a while ago but I never took it this personally.
If he quits vs debating after this fiasco then good riddance.
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- #607
So to get back on topic the pages below need to have their stats revised to 7-A+ (6-C with multipliers for the God tiers) since it was decided earlier by KLOL506 that KE and 6-C for Jack-6's meteor feat isn't valid anymore.
Akuma, Jack, Master Raven, Heihachi, Kazuya, Jin, Jinpachi, Lars and Raven.
The profiles below need to be downgraded to Low 7-B as well.
Alisa, Anna, Bryan, Eliza, Feng Wei, Kazumi, Kuma, Lee, Marshall, Nina, Ogre, Panda, Paul and Yoshimitsu.
Now that BlackDarkness is gone I wouldn't mind applying more revisions after these though.
SirAlex09
He/Him- 1,169
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Can we add Hwoarang to the Top tier ? He tied with Jin and was his equal throughout the entire series so far. Jin needed Devil form to beat him.
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- Thread starter
- #609
Hwoarang is definitely a top tier.
There's just one problem.
He doesn't have a Vs Battles Wiki profile.
SirAlex09
He/Him- 1,169
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Okay maybe we could change that for the future and make an accurate tier list based on feats who should be top / mid and low tier.
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- Thread starter
- #611
Absolutely.
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I also want to point out that we need a revision to adding the missing abilities as well, i feel that some of the profiles has a mssing abilities in their section
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Next thread maybe. This one has gone long enough
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Well, this thread has spiraled down worse than I expected and wanted.
I'd say to leave other downgrades to other threads, where calcs and arguments can be well explained.
I'd also say it makes sense to not rate the meteor as the standard output, since as others said, Jack's normal punches could damage the meteor, and only his final attack did, so it should scale to it and those who heavily outclass Jack-6.
But what were the counterarguments to this? I only remember scaling to Alisa, who apparently sliced a Jack-6 apart, but I don't know where this takes place and no one linked the scene.
I'd say to leave other downgrades to other threads, where calcs and arguments can be well explained.
I'd also say it makes sense to not rate the meteor as the standard output, since as others said, Jack's normal punches could damage the meteor, and only his final attack did, so it should scale to it and those who heavily outclass Jack-6.
But what were the counterarguments to this? I only remember scaling to Alisa, who apparently sliced a Jack-6 apart, but I don't know where this takes place and no one linked the scene.
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- #615
Is it at all possible that we can resolve these downgrades now?
I've only got 4 other things to handle in terms of downgrades.
Instead of making a completely separate thread just tell me how you feel about the following revisions.
- Whether or not the Devil Gene's multiplier is too vague to be usable. (Which you agreed with me on)
- Whether or not Azazel and Jinpachi's "world destroying" statements are valid. (Which you stated earlier that you weren't comfortable with at the time)
- Whether or not Kazumi scales to the current cast (Which you haven't commented on yet)
- Whether or not Gun-Jack's AP, regular durability and striking strength scale to the Low 7-B satellite laser blast. (Which you haven't commented on yet)
You convinced me earlier to keep Class K for the characters so I'm fine with that.
BlackDarkness had 1 staff member on his team (DarkDragon) and I have 1 as well (JohnConquest1) as well as a majority of supporters in favor of my revisions.
You're the tiebreaking staff member.
If you agree with the above revisions we can apply them but if you don't I'll just drop it and move on with the revisions we've already agreed to do.
I agree with everything you've stated here.
BlackDarkness didn't really have any counterarguments to the meteor feat not scaling to Jack-6's normal output.
He just kept on disagreeing with everyone (including calc group members) for the entire thread.
BlackDarkness also stated earlier that Alisa harmed a Jack-6 but it never happened in the cutscenes.
Here's the link to the entire cutscene fight between Alisa and Jack-6.
All she does is knock Jack-6 down without damaging it in anyway but then it gets right back up only to get 1 shot by Lars.
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Looking at the scene, there was only one Jack-6 on the floor on both scenes that it was taken down.
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I'm actually gonna disagree on this one, she briefly overpowered him and managed to knock him down briefly
The most likely reason he shows no damage is because lets be honest it's the game's engine
We've done this with other characters as well like Garou even though he never made Saitama even bleed or Netero who hit Meruem hundreds of thousands of time with basically no damage
What's shown is her knocking him down for a time which I believe would allow her to scale
To 7-A+? Hell no, but to whatever value Jack-6 is currently rated at? Yes, that seems fine
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- Thread starter
- #618
Alisa would scale to Low 7-B just like all of the other characters.
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Ok that seems fine
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- Thread starter
- #620
Is it at all possible that we can resolve these downgrades now?
I've only got 4 other things to handle in terms of downgrades.
Instead of making a completely separate thread just tell me how you feel about the following revisions.
- Whether or not the Devil Gene's multiplier is too vague to be usable. (Which you agreed with me on)
- Whether or not Azazel and Jinpachi's "world destroying" statements are valid. (Which you stated earlier that you weren't comfortable with at the time)
- Whether or not Kazumi scales to the current cast (Which you haven't commented on yet)
- Whether or not Gun-Jack's AP, regular durability and striking strength scale to the Low 7-B satellite laser blast. (Which you haven't commented on yet)
You convinced me earlier to keep Class K for the characters so I'm fine with that.
BlackDarkness had 1 staff member on his team (DarkDragon) and I have 1 as well (JohnConquest1) as well as a majority of supporters in favor of my revisions.
You're the tiebreaking staff member.
If you agree with the above revisions we can apply them but if you don't I'll just drop it and move on with the revisions we've already agreed to do.
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I think Alisa harming Jack-6 is totally fine, she did in fact damage it enough to briefly KO it, but not take it down for good, meaning that she wouldn't scale to the overarching force of the meteor punch.
I'd prefer to keep it as a likely, because while true that cellular compund doesn't literally equate to power, the context of the scene suggests otherwise, as that statement is made right when Kazuya is beating the shit out of Jin.
Heihachi might have gotten stronger with age, but his attempts to return young, and by taking spin-offs as semi-support, suggest he should still be somewhat comparable to his future self.
I'd prefer to see what BlackDarkness is planning in terms of upgrades and everything else, but I guess we'll see when he comes back? I recognize I can't keep this still, despite the future plans for the series.
I really wish we could find the japanese script, but unfortunaly I couldn't.
I'd prefer to keep it as a likely, because while true that cellular compund doesn't literally equate to power, the context of the scene suggests otherwise, as that statement is made right when Kazuya is beating the shit out of Jin.
I never considered valid because, while true that they were a very impending threat that needed to be stopped as soon as possibly, they never outright state they'd end the world in a single attack.
I think she should indeed scale, it doesn't make sense for either her or Heihachi to be below most of the cast.
Heihachi might have gotten stronger with age, but his attempts to return young, and by taking spin-offs as semi-support, suggest he should still be somewhat comparable to his future self.
I'm not totally sure whether or not they should scale to Jack's forcefield, though.
We should rather calc it.
I'd prefer to see what BlackDarkness is planning in terms of upgrades and everything else, but I guess we'll see when he comes back? I recognize I can't keep this still, despite the future plans for the series.
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- Thread starter
- #622
Alisa scales to 8-B or Low 7-B like the rest of the cast then.
I'm fine with keeping it as a likely rating.
I completely agree.
Kazumi should scale to 8-B or Low 7-B and sub-rel then.
If Gun Jack stats (excluding force-field durability) don't scale to the satellite laser then everyone except the top tiers scale to 8-B.
Okay.
Class K can remain until we calc it then.
That's fine.
But until then can I proceed with the revisions you've agreed to just now and prior?
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I'll tag some more of the people who replied so far (anyone can of course cast their opinion, even if I forgot to tag them) for a couple of things, since I don't really like to be the deciding factor.
@DarkDragonMedeus @RanaProGamer @Dust_Collector @Shmeatywerbenmanjenson @Kisaragi_Megumi
What are your opinions on these things?
Possibly High 6-A
Currently this rating is based on the following descriptions and the assumption the threath is impending enough for at least the surface of the planet to be wiped out in a single attack.
Jinpachi: stated / numerous / times that he will exterminate humanity / and destroy the world if fully awakened
Azazel: stated that the world would end / if the seal was broken, he will unleash himself on Earth / and being a threat to humanity, / with Jin defeating him to save the planet.
10x Multiplier
For the true Devil Gene, based on this. I honestly can't understand whatever they say between "Catalyst" and "Cellular Compounds".
My argumento for keep it as a likely is this. While true that cellular compound doesn't literally equate to power, the context of the scene suggests otherwise, as that statement is made right when Kazuya is overpowering Jin.
Low 7-B
Basically scaling to this durability feat, but the fact the characters were protected by a forcefield might limit the scaling to just that.
I don't have any knowledge on the power source of the forcefield or whatever that would allow scaling through UES, maybe there is, I just don't know and no one has provided evidences on it yet.
Additionally, that was the good ending, in the bad ending Gun Jack and the girl are obliterated by the laser, possibly because of the lack of said forcefield.
@DarkDragonMedeus @RanaProGamer @Dust_Collector @Shmeatywerbenmanjenson @Kisaragi_Megumi
What are your opinions on these things?
Possibly High 6-A
Currently this rating is based on the following descriptions and the assumption the threath is impending enough for at least the surface of the planet to be wiped out in a single attack.
Jinpachi: stated / numerous / times that he will exterminate humanity / and destroy the world if fully awakened
Azazel: stated that the world would end / if the seal was broken, he will unleash himself on Earth / and being a threat to humanity, / with Jin defeating him to save the planet.
10x Multiplier
For the true Devil Gene, based on this. I honestly can't understand whatever they say between "Catalyst" and "Cellular Compounds".
My argumento for keep it as a likely is this. While true that cellular compound doesn't literally equate to power, the context of the scene suggests otherwise, as that statement is made right when Kazuya is overpowering Jin.
Low 7-B
Basically scaling to this durability feat, but the fact the characters were protected by a forcefield might limit the scaling to just that.
I don't have any knowledge on the power source of the forcefield or whatever that would allow scaling through UES, maybe there is, I just don't know and no one has provided evidences on it yet.
Additionally, that was the good ending, in the bad ending Gun Jack and the girl are obliterated by the laser, possibly because of the lack of said forcefield.
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- Thread starter
- #624
Huh.
I was told that staff member votes count for extra which is why I wanted you to be the deciding factor but this works too.
I was told that staff member votes count for extra which is why I wanted you to be the deciding factor but this works too.
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I know, but I feel these haven't been discussed enough on their own, as the attention was drifted towards more important topics.
And I want this to be transparent in general for the record.
And I want this to be transparent in general for the record.
Dust_Collector
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For the High 6-A stuff I think the statements about being a threat or being able to exterminate humanity aren't very solid, Mountain level+ and Relativistic speeds should be more than enough to destroy the human race with no issue, Jinpachi saying he'll destroy the world is a little more solid but the lack of details for how he'd do it still makes it questionable. Them specifically mentioning the planet being saved when talking about Jin defeating Azazel does make it sound like the latter could've done some serious damage but given the lack of details I'm still not entirely sold, guess I'm leaning more towards with the possibly High 6-A ratings being removed but I'm not opposed to them staying if everyone is fine with Jinpachis world destroying statement and the statement about Jin saving the planet from Azazel.
I'm fine with keeping the 10× multiplier as a likely.
Since the Low 7-B durability feat was only done via a forcefield and the bad ending shows that Gun Jack would've been destroyed without out I don't think we can get any scaling out of it unless there's characters that have overpowered that forcefield.
I'm fine with keeping the 10× multiplier as a likely.
Since the Low 7-B durability feat was only done via a forcefield and the bad ending shows that Gun Jack would've been destroyed without out I don't think we can get any scaling out of it unless there's characters that have overpowered that forcefield.
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I dunno if the High 6-A stuff should be discussed here given how long the thread's gone on but it does seem pretty sus to me. Even Jinpachi's best quote is "[...] tells me to destroy the world and eliminate anyone who gets in my way", which implies it'd be done over time, can't really get in the way of a guy just punching the ground hard. It's not like, crushing evidence but it does tip the scale slightly.
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Tbh I think it’s overtime, unless there is actually an attack on that scale which I highly doubt. I think it’s also clear with the Jinpachi ending where he doesn’t outright just surface wipe the planet after awakening. For Azazel, I think it’s more so referring that if Jin lost, no one would be strong enough to stop Azazel from slowly killing everyone, even Nina compares it to Jin declaring war.
So looking at the scene, I don’t see much change in other stats like speed. This seems consistent with Heihachi not getting blitzed by Devil Kazuya. So I’m ok with keeping the 10x multiplier for strength.
Yeah I think bad ending implies that he wouldn’t have tanked it. So just for Jack, we could add 8-B, Low 7-B with force field.
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I think my thoughts are more or less the same as Rana and Dust Collector.
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- Thread starter
- #630
Most of the people you tagged agree with the revisions so I think we can wrap this up.
Just so there isn't any confusion this is what I'll be revising.
The following pages will have their stats revised to 7-A+ (likely 6-C with multipliers for the God tiers).
Akuma, Jack, Master Raven, Heihachi, Kazuya, Jin, Jinpachi, Lars and Raven.
The following profiles will have their stats revised to 8-B.
Alisa, Anna, Bryan, Eliza, Feng Wei, Kazumi, Kuma, Lee, Marshall, Nina, Ogre, Panda, Paul and Yoshimitsu.
I figured out how to insert links and bold the text so I can handle all of the edits myself.
Once I'm done with said edits this thread can be closed.
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Like many have said above none of these are concrete enough for even a "possibly" scaling IMO
Most refer to wiping out humanity which can be interpreted many ways and does not require High 6-A energy
Jinpachi "destroying the world" seems to be overtime to if at all considering he says he'd have to exterminate anyone in his way
Especially with the ending dialogue of his ending stating that "The world will never be the same" Implying that it would still remain
Same goes for Azazal though his could more easily be interpreted as High 6-A
All in All I'm against the "possibly High 6-A" rating
This seems fine
Cellular compounds by definition " are the complex biomolecules and structures of which cells, and thus living organisms, are composed" so if the structures of the stuff that makes up the characters are increased by 10x is see no reason why it wouldn't be a 10x increase.
This also seems to be what their implying in this particular scene
I would say it was because of the girl but the bad ending clearly shows that he dies without the forcefield
Are there any characters in-game who can break his forcefield?
If so then we could scale those to Low 7-B
If not then they should be Downgraded to the next highest feat
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- #632
I honestly didn't even know that Gun Jack's bad ending was a thing before today.
Good find Saman.
Good find Saman.
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- #633
@SamanPatou Can I get started on the revisions?
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I'd say yes
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- #635
Cool.
I'll get started in a couple of hours but I also wanted to get your opinion on something.
I have a MASSIVE Street Fighter Upgrade (s) thread that I want to post in a few hours after this Tekken business is handled but I was wondering if I should post it today or if it would be a better idea to wait until Street Fighter 6 drops in a few months.
What do you think?
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You can post it
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- #637
I'm not asking whether or not I should post the Street Fighter Upgrade (s) thread.
I'm asking if you think it's a good idea or not.
Or if I should wait for Street Fighter 6 to drop in a few months.
I'm essentially asking for your recommendation.
To put it another way.
Do you think it's best to drop the MASSIVE verse wide thread now or wait a few months for Street Fighter 6?
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Yeah, I guess now we wait till Continuum says he’s done with the changes.Thank you to everybody who are helping out here.
Should we close this thread after the current revisions have been applied then?
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- #640
@SamanPatou @Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus All of the revisions are done now so this thread can finally be closed.
Thanks for all of your help!
Now I can post my Street Fighter Upgrade (s) thread after this thread is closed.
Thanks for all of your help!
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