Tekken - Downgrade in High/Divine Levels

[Arthur_Nando444]

As the title says, this post aims to downgrade the levels where Tekken characters are currently placed. I will explain and argue why.

High/Divine Levels of Tekken Relativistic/FTL​

In the profiles of high-level/divine characters of the verse, they are placed with Relativistic and FTL reaction and combat speed (with the Devil Gene multiplier) based on this calculation, and on the idea that some of the characters can react to the laser. However, in most of the feats involving this (listed below), there was actually no reaction to the speed of the beam itself. In fact, they reacted to the head movement of the one firing it, since Devil Kazumi and Kazuya start with their head aimed at the ground, and then move the laser (which is “linear” to their head movement) to hit their targets. And that’s what the characters were reacting to.

• Heihachi reacts to Devil Kasumi’s laser (Timestamp = 2:27)
• Heihachi reacts to Kazuya’s laser (Timestamp = 2:35)
• Akuma reacts to Kazuya’s laser (Timestamp = 0:47)

Furthermore… It is stated on Jin Kazama’s profile that all Devil Gene users are capable of firing lasers at the same speed as Kazuya, but in reality, there is nothing in the series that supports this claim. In other words, only Kazuya has Relativistic attack speed.


Honorable Mention
This feat (Timestamp = 7:58) would classify as aim reaction, considering that Jin saw Kazuya channel the beam before firing it at him.


Topic Conclusion
No one scales (in combat/reaction speed) to Kazuya’s beam. And the beam’s attack speed is exclusively his.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

High/Divine Levels of Tekken Relativistic/FTL​

In the profiles of high-level/divine characters of the verse, they are placed with Relativistic and FTL reaction and combat speed (with the Devil Gene multiplier) based on this calculation, and on the idea that some of the characters can react to the laser. However, in most of the feats involving this (listed below), there was actually no reaction to the speed of the beam itself. In fact, they reacted to the head movement of the one firing it, since Devil Kazumi and Kazuya start with their head aimed at the ground, and then move the laser (which is “linear” to their head movement) to hit their targets. And that’s what the characters were reacting to.

• Heihachi reacts to Devil Kasumi’s laser (Timestamp = 2:27)
• Heihachi reacts to Kazuya’s laser (Timestamp = 2:35)
• Akuma reacts to Kazuya’s laser (Timestamp = 0:47)

Furthermore… It is stated on Jin Kazama’s profile that all Devil Gene users are capable of firing lasers at the same speed as Kazuya, but in reality, there is nothing in the series that supports this claim. In other words, only Kazuya has Relativistic attack speed.

How did no one see this before? This looks good.

 

[Ezaru]

Wow yeah these are all aim dodges

Though the second one, the beam right after thats semi gameplay seems maybe useable

 

[Dust_Collector]

• Heihachi reacts to Devil Kasumi’s laser (Timestamp = 2:27)
• Heihachi reacts to Kazuya’s laser (Timestamp = 2:35)
• Akuma reacts to Kazuya’s laser (Timestamp = 0:47)

hmm yeah they're clearly not reacting to the beams speed being fired directly at them

This feat (Timestamp = 7:58) would classify as aim reaction, considering that Jin saw Kazuya channel the beam before firing it at him.

I think this one is fine for speed, while he does see Kazuya charge it up he only moves to block it after it's been fired and while it's coming at him. We should see if there's better examples like Jin being fast enough to attempt to block the beam while it's coming at him before downgrading. I know you can react to and block Kazuyas beams in a fight if he fires it directly at you but given it's gameplay I'm not sure how viable using that can be? Unless we stick with only canon fights he has with comparable fighters.

 

[Antonio2288]

I disagree.
Even if we ignore the gameplay (where you can block beams after firing), there is the fact that in the fight with True Devil, Kazuya Jin fired his beam and Kaz blocked it with his own after that Jin fired.
. Time 3:00.
Also here is another direct achievement: Jin manages to save Lars from Kaz's beam while he is flying (0:16).
And this is not an Angel Jin.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

bump

 

[Arthur_Nando444]

hmm sim, eles claramente não estão reagindo à velocidade dos raios disparados diretamente contra eles


Acho que este é bom em termos de velocidade, embora ele veja Kazuya carregando, ele só se move para bloquear depois que o raio é disparado e enquanto ele está vindo em sua direção. Devemos ver se há exemplos melhores, como Jin sendo rápido o suficiente para tentar bloquear o raio enquanto ele está vindo em sua direção antes de rebaixar. Eu sei que você pode reagir e bloquear os raios de Kazuya em uma luta se ele disparar diretamente em você, mas dada a jogabilidade, não tenho certeza de quão viável usar isso pode ser. A menos que nos limitemos apenas às lutas canônicas que ele tem com lutadores comparáveis.

It's not possible to upgrade Jin to Relativistic with this. The VS speed page gave an example of targeting: "As another example, we explain that character A uses a minigun on character B, but the minigun takes a second or two to charge, and character B sees this. If character B dodges, it's considered misdirection, as they knew the attack was coming.

Occurrence speed is reacting to an attack that you don't know is coming, or that happens at a very close distance."

And this is extremely applicable here, as Jin saw Kazuya channel the beam to fire.

 

[Arthur_Nando444]

Discordo.
Mesmo se ignorarmos a jogabilidade (onde você pode bloquear raios após disparar), há o fato de que na luta com True Devil, Kazuya Jin disparou seu raio e Kaz o bloqueou com o seu depois que Jin disparou.

What exactly does this have to do with anything? Only Kazuya has demonstrated such speed. There's nothing in the game's story that states or shows that demon gene users can shoot at speeds close to Kazuya's, so this feat of Kazuya blocking Devil Jin's beams adds absolutely nothing.

 

[Arthur_Nando444]

Também aqui está outra conquista direta: Jin consegue salvar Lars do raio de Kaz enquanto ele está voando (0:16).
E este não é um Angel Jin.

Due to the circumstances of the incident, there's no way to draw any concrete conclusions. Jin may very well have started flying before the beam was fired (again, Kazuya had to charge up to fire).

 

[Arkenis]

Due to the circumstances of the incident, there's no way to draw any concrete conclusions. Jin may very well have started flying before the beam was fired (again, Kazuya had to charge up to fire).

We see the beam already close to the guy before we see Jin in frame. That should be calced before downgrading completely.

 

[Arthur_Nando444]

We see the beam already close to the guy before we see Jin in frame. That should be calced before downgrading completely.

Once again: there's no evidence that Jin's movement began when the beam was already at point-blank range, and that wouldn't even make sense. The very feat I gave as an honorable mention shows that Jin can't even get out of the laser's path when he's far away and still see it coming. Furthermore, Jin wouldn't risk Lars's physical safety by relying entirely on his speed to save him when the beam is ridiculously close.

 

[hippoishungry]

While i would say the beam is faster than angel jin, its obviously not so fast that he cant react:


As you can see on this frame, Angel Jin is close to Lars


We then see that Jin gets closer, and the attack appears on screen


He gets even closer, and the attack is about to hit Lars


Angel Jin barely carries Lars out of the attack path


Angel jin flies away safely


Overall i would say that the best course of action would be to downscale everyone who scales to Angel Jin to baseline Relativistic for being slower than the beam but still reacting to it.

 

[Arkenis]

Once again: there's no evidence that Jin's movement began when the beam was already at point-blank range, and that wouldn't even make sense. The very feat I gave as an honorable mention shows that Jin can't even get out of the laser's path when he's far away and still see it coming. Furthermore, Jin wouldn't risk Lars's physical safety by relying entirely on his speed to save him when the beam is ridiculously close.

Yeah idc if he was moving before or after, the fact he wasn't on screen when it was point blank and yet still saved him is a speed feat.