Massive Dragon Ball Super Scaling Revision

[Aachintya31]

INTRODUCTION
Scaling in Dragon Ball Super was confusing me a lot ,i did some detective pikachu level research and came to a conclusion that the ratings are indeed sus and very cleverly put on their profiles.
We have Base Jiren Rated as Low 2-C On the basis of him being stronger infinite Zamasu , However it is not well substantiated by proper evidence from the show.

Arguments.

1 : "Infinite Zamasu's Power was Unquantifiable for Anyone to Measure"
The Justification Given on Jiren's Profile States to be stronger than Infinite Zamasu is that "He is repeatedly stated by Shin, Goku, and Vegeta to be the most powerful opponent Universe 7 has ever faced".This is concluded from the following statements.

Goku:
I've never encountered an energy as strong and heavy as this.

Shin:
This power feels different from anyone we've ever faced before

Vegeta:
Your energy is like a steel wall ,i've never faced anything like it.

These statements seems hyperbolic as they have infact witnessed far stronger energy's in the form of Beerus and Champa's 2-C feat and Zeno's Destruction of All of Existence.Also ,Beerus fearing Jiren's power was because his life being at stake in the tournament and not him considering base jiren to be stronger than him. On another note .Infinite Zamasu is Rated Low 2-C due to him having higher dimensional existence .Goku and Vegeta can't comprehend IZ's power due to him being above a plane of existence.If they can't comprehend his power ,there is no sense of scaling Jiren to Infinite Zamasu.

2: "Mightiest Foe In Dragon Ball History"
Jiren is considered the Mightiest Foe in DB history which puts him above infinite zamasu.
This comes from a Preview of Episode-129 of Dragon Ball Super

How will they challenge the mightiest Foe in Dragon Ball History....?

Preview By Definition is : "Display (a product, film, etc.) before it is made generally available."

We Didn't get the actual statement of him being the strongest foe in dragon ball history in actual display i.e Episode 129
Preview shouldn't be taken as actual media as many a time actual content is changed as seen in marvel trailers and even DBS super hero due to various reasons (for ex : to create Hype,Legal contracts, spoilers etc.)
As Even Herms98(source) mentions it to be a preview of Episode-129 to create Hype.


Almost a year ago a similar CRT was made but closed on the basis that Whis Stated that Jiren is stronger than Infinite Zamasu but such a statement was never made in the show.



No offence to DarkDragonMedeus and Antvasima

Such statements or mention of infinite zamasu was never made in ToP.

TLDR
Base Jiren and Everyone who scales to him should downgraded to 3-A or be upgraded to Atleast low 2-C( Half 2-C ) based of whis's statement for a heavily suppressed jiren to be stronger than an God of Destruction.

The Reason for their Baseline Low 2-C ratings are them being scaled to Infinite Zamasu Backed Up by a Preview of Chapter 129. Infinite Zamasu being treated Low 2-C due to having a higher dimensional existence so shouldn't be scaled to Jiren along with those statements contradicting many things shown previously in the show.

There is no logic of him being in the middle of 3-A and Half 2-C by being scaled to IZ.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I disagree like I have multiple times before, but I don't have time atm so I'll leave it open in case others have other statements.

 

[Vietthai96]

Almost a year ago a similar CRT was made but closed on the basis that Whis Stated that Jiren is stronger than Infinite Zamasu

need to sleep now, but:
1. It is Shin stated that Jiren was strongest foes ever faced, which...well possibly includes Infinite Zamasu since he also presented in the battle from Black to Fusion Zamasu to Infinite Zamasu
2. Whis stated that Jiren is God of Destruction level, probably even stronger.

 

[Aachintya31]

1. It is Shin stated that Jiren was strongest foes ever faced, which...well possibly includes Infinite Zamasu since he also presented in the battle from Black to Fusion Zamasu to Infinite Zamasu

"This power feels different from anyone we've ever faced before" you might be referring to this statement ,as i said in thread they can't quantify IZ's power.

2. Whis stated that Jiren is God of Destruction level, probably even stronger.

Yeah ,Full Power Jiren is considered GoD Level not base jiren.

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah ,Full Power Jiren is considered GoD Level not base jiren.

Actually it is heavily suppressed Jiren, he just slowly revealing more of his power as the time go on until he go full power to try winning Complete UI Goku, then Limit Broken himself

 

[Greenshifter]

they can't quantify IZ's power.

Why not?

 

[Aachintya31]

Actually it is heavily suppressed Jiren, he just slowly revealing more of his power as the time go on until he go full power to try winning Complete UI Goku, then Limit Broken himself

Yeah ,scaling base or heavily suppressed jiren to GoD makes sense but a no no to infinite zamasu.However doing so will create a lot of scaling inconsistencies ,many characters would become beerus level

 

[Aachintya31]

Why not?

4th dimensional existence + their range isnt universal+ (it was in the OP)

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeah pure sensing-wise you may have a point, although we kinda treat his beams as being Low 2-C in AP too. That said they can deduce how strong he is from his size.

 

[JOLTxx]

You have a point but I disagree... It's consistent with the narrative that jiren is stronger than infinite zamasu. You can't just dismiss the evidence that supports this because of "higher dimensional existence" so therefore Goku and co shouldn't be able to comprehend zamasu's power whereas dimensionality in Dragonball isn't realistically followed. And the Kais and whis are credible enough to guage these characters powers

 

[Aachintya31]

Yeah pure sensing-wise you may have a point, although we kinda treat his beams as being Low 2-C in AP too. That said they can deduce how strong he is from his size.

Nothing suggests his ki becomes stronger. weakened Vegeta Goku and trunks ( three 3-A) were able to hold him off from a moment
He is Low 2-C because of his higher dimensional existence.
The problem is that those statements are heavily indirect and no way seems to direct IZ.

 

[Greenshifter]

Nothing suggests his ki becomes stronger.

Oh but this isn't what I think, this is what has been argued before.

weakened Vegeta Goku and trunks ( three 3-A) were able to hold him off from a moment

PIS or senzu bean, pick your poison.

 

[Aachintya31]

You have a point but I disagree... It's consistent with the narrative that jiren is stronger than infinite zamasu. You can't just dismiss the evidence that supports this because of "higher dimensional existence" so therefore Goku and co shouldn't be able to comprehend zamasu's power whereas dimensionality in Dragonball isn't realistically followed. And the Kais and whis are credible enough to guage these characters powers

Narrative is that he is stronger than GoDs which would create a lot of scaling inconsistencies in base form.Anything and everything in DB is raw power ,hax,strength but this shouldn't be applied to dimensionality.

 

[Greenshifter]

Narrative is that he is stronger than GoDs which would create a lot of scaling inconsistencies.

How so? Goku is only on that level with UI for now.

 

[Aachintya31]

Oh but this isn't what I think, this is what has been argued before.

Not the point of the OP.
Scaling is based off a heavily indirect statement where he is considered to be stronger a entity which is low 2-C due to existence.

 

[denzeelmao]

You have a point but I disagree... It's consistent with the narrative that jiren is stronger than infinite zamasu. You can't just dismiss the evidence that supports this because of "higher dimensional existence" so therefore Goku and co shouldn't be able to comprehend zamasu's power whereas dimensionality in Dragonball isn't realistically followed. And the Kais and whis are credible enough to guage these characters powers

Disagreed FRA

 

[Greenshifter]

Not the point of the OP.

It's a supporting point of yours that they couldn't sense his power, I'm targeting that supporting point.

 

[Aachintya31]

How so? Goku is only on that level with UI for now.

Whis states that he is stronger GoDs when he was tanking the universal spirit bomb so base jiren /heavily suppressed jiren would be GoD level which will make frieza Android 17 toppo Vegeta beerus level.

 

[JOLTxx]

but this shouldn't be applied to dimensionality.

Why shouldn't it? In Dragonball if your ki is higher than the other the other's hax or special abilities won't affect the person with higher ki. And dimensionality isn't really observed in Dragonball, if it was residents of otherworld such as king Kai and the rest would be L2-C

 

[Greenshifter]

Hmm, nah like Whis is speculating that Jiren is the mortal who even a GoD (Belmod) can't defeat. While this is enough to support him scaling above IZ while heavily suppressed, he only scales to Beerus and Champa's feat at FP.

 

[Alexander]

the thing is that, actually, shin did not know about the energy of infinite zamasu, in fact in the arc of zamasu and black he did not make a comment about the power of infinite zamasu or similar

 

[Thedoctor]

zamasu was immortal and became the timeline so naturally it would take more then an ass whipping and a hand through his heart to kill him, they need zeno to get rid of him for that reason, he's no where near as strong as Jiren because Beerus would of easily gotten rid of him with hakai if he wasn't wearing the time Ring, goku had to break his limits several times to beat Jiren, I can't believe I have to explain this, it should be obvious by now how dragon ball works

 

[JOLTxx]

Whis states that he is stronger GoDs when he was tanking the universal spirit bomb so base jiren /heavily suppressed jiren would be GoD level which will make frieza Android 17 toppo Vegeta beerus level.

You are aware that God's of destructions can be stronger than eachother and being G.o.d level doesn't mean beerus level. Beerus was shown to be stronger than some of the other God of destructions and God of destruction level would start from toppo's level.

 

[Aachintya31]

Why shouldn't it? In Dragonball if your ki is higher than the other the other's hax or special abilities won't affect the person with higher ki. And dimensionality isn't really observed in Dragonball, if it was residents of otherworld such as king Kai and the rest would be L2-C

Everything has some solid reasons .Nothing is shown in case of dimensionality

 

[JOLTxx]

Everything has some solid reasons

There are scans that suggests the Kais of the otherworld are higher dimensional yet such things are completely ignored in Dragonball. Dimensionality isn't realistically followed in the verse

 

[Aachintya31]

Hmm, nah like Whis is speculating that Jiren is the mortal who even a GoD (Belmod) can't defeat. While this is enough to support him scaling above IZ while heavily suppressed, he only scales to Beerus and Champa's feat at FP.

He should be At par or above beerus and Champa's level or be 3A ,there is no point of his base being at the middle by whis 's statement.

 

[Aachintya31]

There are scans that suggests the Kais of the otherworld are higher dimensional yet such things are completely ignored in Dragonball. Dimensionality isn't realistically followed in the verse

Contradicted by various sources ,not the point of discussion of OP. Well IZ is a 4D being accepted by the wiki.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The Justification Given on Jiren's Profile States to be stronger than Infinite Zamasu is that "He is repeatedly stated by Shin, Goku, and Vegeta to be the most powerful opponent Universe 7 has ever faced".This is concluded from the following statements.

This always confused me, because you'd think that if becoming Infinite Zamasu did make Zamasu any more powerful than before, that would have been noted by any of the characters in-universe or by a producer or in one of the artbooks, but nope. His Ki remains the same between both forms.

Also, yeah, Goku and Vegeta have sensed

1. Beerus at 100% (when he nullified the super dense energy ball)
2. Beerus and Champa challenging each other in Universe 6
3. Beerus and Champa challenging each other during the baseball game

Does this mean that suppressed Jiren is 2-C?

 

[Aachintya31]

You are aware that God's of destructions can be stronger than eachother and being G.o.d level doesn't mean beerus level. Beerus was shown to be stronger than some of the other God of destructions and God of destruction level would start from toppo's level.

Wiki considers them to relative in the anime.

 

[Aachintya31]

This always confused me, because you'd think that if becoming Infinite Zamasu did make Zamasu any more powerful than before, that would have been noted by any of the characters in-universe or by a producer or in one of the artbooks, but nope. His Ki remains the same between both forms.

Also, yeah, Goku and Vegeta have sensed

1. Beerus at 100% (when he nullified the super dense energy ball)
2. Beerus and Champa challenging each other in Universe 6
3. Beerus and Champa challenging each other during the baseball game

Does this mean that suppressed Jiren is 2-C?

Exactly 2-C makes more sense than Scaling to IZ
However it would create a lot of scaling inconsistencies.
Scaling to IZ is crap.

 

[Thedoctor]

it's not like there are a bunch of gods saying "holy shit this guy jiren is possibly the strongest mortal in the multiverse" or anything to drive home the point of Jiren and Goku becoming God of destruction level beings that were bending the rules of the tournament that grand priest set up

 

[JOLTxx]

Beerus at 100% (when he nullified the super dense energy ball)

Wrong. Beerus wasn't at 100%. It was later revealed that he was lying just to try and motivate Goku.

Beerus and Champa challenging each other in Universe 6

They weren't fighting at full power, if they did both universes would be destroyed. This has been stated multiple times by whis

 

[Aachintya31]

it's not like there are a bunch of gods saying "holy shit this guy jiren is possibly the strongest mortal in the multiverse" or anything to drive home the point of Jiren and Goku becoming God of destruction level beings that were bending the rules of the tournament that grand priest set up

Bruhhh since when?
We are talking about Base Jiren

 

[Aachintya31]

Wrong. Beerus wasn't at 100%. It was later revealed that he was lying just to try and motivate Goku.

They weren't fighting at full power, if they did both universes would be destroyed. This has been stated multiple times by whis

Their feat is still considered 2-C much stronger than IZ.

 

[JOLTxx]

Contradicted by various sources ,not the point of discussion of OP. Well IZ is a 4D being accepted by the wiki.

Yeah Infinite zamasu is 4D. However this doesn't prevent the likes of supreme Kai or whis from gauging his power and blatantly calling jiren the strongest

 

[Nullflowerblush]

They weren't fighting at full power, if they did both universes would be destroyed.

Correct!

Which is why Whis and Vados intervened on both occasions!

 

[y3p_owo]

I agree.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

y'know, akm once made the point that "a 2-d square drawn on a screen cannot become one with a 3-d cube box in real life" when arguing that infinite zamasu had to have fourth dimensional power to merge with the universe. seeing as how the energy that fused with the universe is literally just fusion zamasu's ki, displaced after his body was destroyed, wouldn't the normal fusion zamasu have to be low 2-c?

 

[Greenshifter]

He should be At par or above beerus and Champa's level or be 3A ,there is no point of his base being at the middle by whis 's statement.

It adds consistency, which is what you are looking for.

 

[Aachintya31]

It adds consistency, which is what you are looking for.

Ayo this is not how it should work.