Mario Bros: Lifting Strength Upgrade Attempt #1

[AStrangeverse]

Just gonna get straight to the point, all credit goes to @Mephistus for creating this blog down below and calculating the feat.

Mario Party 4 Power Star Feat

vsbattles.fandom.com

But again, title says it all. This CRT's purpose is to hopefully remove that Class G rating that has overstayed its welcome, and replace it with what's been evaluated on said blog.

The AP is pretty irrelevant considering the cast's current tier, but it'd still be applied to the verse page should this upgrade pass through. Hopefully.

If this fortunately gets greenlit for application, then it should be applied to.. really any of the Mario characters that scale to 3-C, but if that's too much of an issue, then we can discuss alternatives.

 

[AStrangeverse]

Bump

 

[Psychomaster35]

This should be fine

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Seems good to me

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Also WOW a mario upgrade thread honestly surprised

 

[Eficiente]

Why would the LS of the TK of a power source scale to the general LS of enemies powered by it? The way we claim they get to have all the power it can output w/o evidence and with anti-feats for it is already wrong to me, to say that not just sheer power scales, but this as well is an extra step.

 

[AStrangeverse]

Why would the LS of the TK of a power source scale to the general LS of enemies powered by it?

cuz 1:

Majority of the enemies empowered by the star don't use telekinesis, and it's made pretty clear that they are greatly enhanced by it

and 2:

TK is, obviously, done through the Power Star's own inherent power

it doesn't seem right to disregard the feat and not translate it over to LS with TK is basically a Power Star's only viable method for moving objects around

The way we claim they get to have all the power it can output w/o evidence and with anti-feats for it is already wrong to me, to say that not just sheer power scales, but this as well is an extra step.

if they're powered by that source, logically, they'd be bestowed some, if not ALL, of the powers that accompany it

plus, some of the abilities displayed by enemies empowered by a power star are actually shown, that's why some of those aforementioned abilities are listed on the page

and by all means, list some of those anti-feats

 

[Eficiente]

cuz 1:

Majority of the enemies empowered by the star don't use telekinesis, and it's made pretty clear that they are greatly enhanced by it

and 2:

TK is, obviously, done through the Power Star's own inherent power

it doesn't seem right to disregard the feat and not translate it over to LS with TK is basically a Power Star's only viable method for moving objects around

It takes you too much space (nitpick) to just say "it doesn't seem right to disregard the feat". Every ability a character or thing can do can be done with their own inherent power, that doesn't mean that using them as a power source translates every stats (AP, durability, speed, range, LS, etc) into the stats of the one empowered; As I said, one thing is simple things like AP and durability, but this is an extra step.

if they're powered by that source, logically, they'd be bestowed some, if not ALL, of the powers that accompany it

But you can't make up which ones by feeling it right nor make up how TK moves into LS of one's body.

plus, some of the abilities displayed by enemies empowered by a power star are actually shown, that's why some of those aforementioned abilities are listed on the page

Do not feel validated at all because of this; as with all things, showing some abilities granted by a power source with a ton of characteristics just means that they at least have those abilities. It's not supporting that they have things they didn't show because that doesn't make sense.

and by all means, list some of those anti-feats

The way they get beat up by using the environment, like in Mario 64.

 

[AStrangeverse]

It takes you too much space (nitpick) to just say "it doesn't seem right to disregard the feat".

brother, if you're gonna criticize me for the way I type, then you best keep that to yourself

I do it so people can comfortably read without potentially straining their eyes, and also, that's awfully crude to simplify that to a mere sentence when it's intended to be more

Every ability a character or thing can do can be done with their own inherent power, that doesn't mean that using them as a power source translates every stats (AP, durability, speed, range, LS, etc) into the stats of the one empowered; As I said, one thing is simple things like AP and durability, but this is an extra step.

ok

But you can't make up which ones by feeling it right nor make up how TK moves into LS of one's body.

then how do you suppose we go about this? cuz it ain't bein' thrown down the gutter

Do not feel validated at all because of this; as with all things, showing some abilities granted by a power source with a ton of characteristics just means that they at least have those abilities. It's not supporting that they have things they didn't show because that doesn't make sense.

telling me to "not feel validated at all" ain't gonna deter me, bud

and plus, I never once said they have abilities they've never showcased, I only ever said that they'd logically be given most, if not ALL, of the abilities by the Power Star

The way they get beat up by using the environment, like in Mario 64.

Mario is the one largely dealing damage there, at what point is he using the environment against an enemy that hasn't constructed said environmental hazards themselves?

 

[Eficiente]

brother, if you're gonna criticize me for the way I type, then you best keep that to yourself

I do it so people can comfortably read without potentially straining their eyes, and also, that's awfully crude to simplify that to a mere sentence when it's intended to be more

That's not really a good reaction to criticism, I said something reasonable, you put it in a (slightly) abnormal way with the downside of taking too much space and a benefit that no one does as it's not a thing. The idea behind it exists, but for larger stuff, it's misused.

then how do you suppose we go about this? cuz it ain't bein' thrown down the gutter

If you lack a reason for something then that's that, it's not inhereditary the way to go. You are pretty much saying "I don't want things to be that way".

telling me to "not feel validated at all" ain't gonna deter me, bud

and plus, I never once said they have abilities they've never showcased, I only ever said that they'd logically be given most, if not ALL, of the abilities by the Power Star

This is the 3º feelings-based thing you said so far. I didn't "say something that sounds mean to make you feel bad", you should, in fact, not feel validated in by pointing out how "some of the abilities displayed by enemies empowered by a power star are actually shown", because this is inhereditary redundant, it achieves nothing to say it.

And there is no a difference between saying that they have abilities they never showcased and saying they have the power source's LS as their own, gone from TK to physical. Abilities aren't special next to stats when using a magic power source to make yourself more powerful.

Mario is the one largely dealing damage there, at what point is he using the environment against an enemy that hasn't constructed said environmental hazards themselves?

Sorry I don't think that's going anywhere as of this thread, so I'm gonna give up on that bit of the topic myself.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

dios mio what the hell is happening here

Anyways, I agree.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with the upgrade.

 

[Eficiente]

You two may answer my initial question.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You two may answer my initial question.

nah

 

[Ped2018]

......

 

[AStrangeverse]

That's not really a good reaction to criticism, I said something reasonable, you put it in a (slightly) abnormal way with the downside of taking too much space and a benefit that no one does as it's not a thing. The idea behind it exists, but for larger stuff, it's misused.

the reaction was within reason, bud

I'm not gonna overexaggerate and act all dramatic about it, that's just a nitpick that ya really ain't got any business sayin'

If you lack a reason for something then that's that, it's not inhereditary the way to go. You are pretty much saying "I don't want things to be that way".

true, but I mainly said that assuming you'd have a "better" option than just applying it solely to Power Stars and Grand Stars, which was my Plan B should the initial proposal not hold up

This is the 3º feelings-based thing you said so far. I didn't "say something that sounds mean to make you feel bad", you should, in fact, not feel validated in by pointing out how "some of the abilities displayed by enemies empowered by a power star are actually shown", because this is inhereditary redundant, it achieves nothing to say it.

not how I interpreted your comment, nor do I care for the assumption

And there is no a difference between saying that they have abilities they never showcased and saying they have the power source's LS as their own, gone from TK to physical. Abilities aren't special next to stats when using a magic power source to make yourself more powerful.

I mean shit, ain't much I can really defend against there

Sorry I don't think that's going anywhere as of this thread, so I'm gonna give up on that bit of the topic myself.

ok

 

[Eficiente]

the reaction was within reason, bud

I'm not gonna overexaggerate and act all dramatic about it, that's just a nitpick that ya really ain't got any business sayin'

Well, it's still not a good reaction, you can't tell others who criticize you to keep it to themselves because criticism is not bad, you can take in or even dismiss 1 punctual critique, not tell them to not criticize oneself in general, that's not "within reason".

I recognized it was a nitpick when I said it (which I didn't need to).

 

[AStrangeverse]

Well, it's still not a good reaction, you can't tell others who criticize you to keep it to themselves because criticism is not bad, you can take in or even dismiss 1 punctual critique, not tell them to not criticize oneself in general, that's not "within reason".

I recognized it was a nitpick when I said it (which I didn't need to).

ain't sayin criticism is bad, just that nitpick was unnecessary

but agree-to-disagree, end of story so we don't derail

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Why would the LS of the TK of a power source scale to the general LS of enemies powered by it? The way we claim they get to have all the power it can output w/o evidence and with anti-feats for it is already wrong to me, to say that not just sheer power scales, but this as well is an extra step.

I think one of the best comparisons is that Power Stars are essentially Mario's version of Philosopher's Stones (FMA version). A single one could made almost anyone much stronger in every way; such as turning fodder enemies into boss tiers. Not only that, various characters are stronger than the combined might of dozens of them which Mario in turn has been in the same ballpark as those enemies. If anything, it's a lot more cherry picky to not acknowledge Mario at the very least being as potent as a single Power Star than it is to consider him below a single one.

 

[Imaginym]

While I do agree we shouldn't give characters abilities via Power Stars that they never displayed via Power Stars....

Well, what if Mario Party 2 isn't a Stage Play?
Going off of my memory because I'm lazy....
At the end of Bowser Land, the board's winning character confronts Bowser, & is challenged by Bowser to grab him by the tail so as to lift/throw him. However, Bowser suddenly turns into Metal Bowser. Metal Bowser claims he has the weight of 10 Bowsers. Barely able to lift or even move Metal Bowser much at all, the character despairs. However, the other characters -& Toad- show up & provide a Star to the character confronting Bowser.
With this power, the character gets determined again, & Bowser defiantly challenges them again to grab him by the tail.

& not only do they do, they throw him far above the planet's atmosphere, from where Metal Bowser comes hurtling down! His Metal covering shatters, leaving him as regular Bowser, & defeated.


To make a long story short, characters that, in the same cutscene, struggled to barely lift/swing/throw Bowser, could, after receiving a Power Star, throw Metal Bowser to ridiculous effect.
If we consider this feat valid -Not Plot-Induced Stupidity, not hindered by MP2 possibly being a play....- then it could be considered precedent that Power Stars can increase Lifting Strength, couldn't it?
Although, the character involved in that feat can only be 1 of the playable 6 from Mario Party 2: Mario, Luigi, Peach, Donkey Kong, Yoshi & Wario, as opposed to say, fodder like Bowser's Minions who've supposedly been given Power Stars.
Not to mention, throwing a big, metal(-coated) turtle into space is a far cry from moving actual stars in space, yet it's the former a Power Star provides the boost to do.


& as said, there's the matter of TK a Power Star used for a character's birthday gift & actual LS a character having a Power Star might be able to use, presumably.

 

[Eficiente]

I think one of the best comparisons is that Power Stars are essentially Mario's version of Philosopher's Stones (FMA version). A single one could made almost anyone much stronger in every way; such as turning fodder enemies into boss tiers. Not only that, various characters are stronger than the combined might of dozens of them which Mario in turn has been in the same ballpark as those enemies. If anything, it's a lot more cherry picky to not acknowledge Mario at the very least being as potent as a single Power Star than it is to consider him below a single one.

Ok, so, I can argue against this. You are going over how impressive it is and this other great things they can do, but they are unrelated to what's been asked they can do. It doesn't matter how they can make low-tiers be top-tiers, any power source could do that, it's irrelevant to say. The fact that many Power Stars aren't as strong as 1 enemy powered by them is as well irrelevant, if anything that would imply users don't get all of their power when that happens. None of that has anything to do with how the LS of their TK now scales to the general LS of enemies powered by it, again, you just said a bunch of impressive things and then followed it up by saying it was evident that scaling should be done.

 

[AStrangeverse]

Ok, so, I can argue against this. You are going over how impressive it is and this other great things they can do, but they are unrelated to what's been asked they can do. It doesn't matter how they can make low-tiers be top-tiers, any power source could do that, it's irrelevant to say. The fact that many Power Stars aren't as strong as 1 enemy powered by them is as well irrelevant, if anything that would imply users don't get all of their power when that happens. None of that has anything to do with how the LS of their TK now scales to the general LS of enemies powered by it, again, you just said a bunch of impressive things and then followed it up by saying it was evident that scaling should be done.

why shouldn't the TK of a Power Star scale to the LS of those it empowers, when that same power it uses to perform the TK feat is also used to bolster the capabilities of its users, and especially when we know that utilizing a Power Star can also increase the LS of its user

 

[Eficiente]

Because that LS comes from a power called Telekinesis, which is not the same as physical LS. If you were to say that a user can use the same TK as the Power Star, that would be one thing, but their physical strength isn't amped specifically by the TK of a Power Star. If it were true that it's the "same power" as you say, there would be no difference between them that every other verses overcomes via feats (Like Star Wars) or doesn't overcome & keeps the LS feats separated, you just want it to apply here as if Power Stars were special, the reasons given being a bunch of nonsense.

a Power Star can also increase the LS of its user

If anything, this is an anti-feat for Mario, Bowser weighing 10 times over is below Class G, and much, much below Multi-Stellar. They're not even competing their LS against each other. Not to mention how Mario one-shots Bowser like this.

 

[Dust_Collector]

tbh while I'm fine with stuff like scaling the AP of these characters to the Power Stars I'm not entirely sold on them scaling to the TK lifting strength as well (Didn't like it when Sonic characters got some of their LS from Chaos Emeralds moving continents, not gonna like it if Mario characters get it via Power Stars moving stars)

 

[AStrangeverse]

If anything, this is an anti-feat for Mario, Bowser weighing 10 times over is below Class G, and much, much below Multi-Stellar. They're not even competing their LS against each other. Not to mention how Mario one-shots Bowser like this.

it ain't an anti-feat for Mario, cuz nothing suggests that's what the Power Star caps at; made pretty evident by how Bowser is thrown across the entire planet instead of a few hundred or so meters

and the one-shot argument doesn't hold up either, as Bowser wasn't amped by a Power Star while Mario was

 

[AStrangeverse]

tbh while I'm fine with stuff like scaling the AP of these characters to the Power Stars I'm not entirely sold on them scaling to the TK lifting strength as well (Didn't like it when Sonic characters got some of their LS from Chaos Emeralds moving continents, not gonna like it if Mario characters get it via Power Stars moving stars)

understandable

 

[AStrangeverse]

Because that LS comes from a power called Telekinesis, which is not the same as physical LS. If you were to say that a user can use the same TK as the Power Star, that would be one thing, but their physical strength isn't amped specifically by the TK of a Power Star. If it were true that it's the "same power" as you say, there would be no difference between them that every other verses overcomes via feats (Like Star Wars) or doesn't overcome & keeps the LS feats separated, you just want it to apply here as if Power Stars were special, the reasons given being a bunch of nonsense.

there is no "if it were true", it quite literally is, as it derives from the Power Star

and do you always make assumptions about a person's intentions when debating?

 

[Imaginym]

Because that LS comes from a power called Telekinesis, which is not the same as physical LS. If you were to say that a user can use the same TK as the Power Star, that would be one thing, but their physical strength isn't amped specifically by the TK of a Power Star. If it were true that it's the "same power" as you say, there would be no difference between them that every other verses overcomes via feats (Like Star Wars) or doesn't overcome & keeps the LS feats separated, you just want it to apply here as if Power Stars were special, the reasons given being a bunch of nonsense.

Kinda inclined to agree. A lot of verses treat TK & physical LS as distinct. Some don't, but AFAIK, Mario is not a franchise that presents TK & LS as interchangeable.

If anything, this is an anti-feat for Mario, Bowser weighing 10 times over is below Class G, and much, much below Multi-Stellar. They're not even competing their LS against each other. Not to mention how Mario one-shots Bowser like this.

Below Class G, even if we were to try to account for the force or such needed to throw such a metal Bowser into the stratosphere & beyond, as is done in the cutscene?

I do agree that it's a bit below par for the characters who can be the one to throw Metal Bowser in that cutscene. Mario, Luigi, Donkey Kong, Peach, Yoshi & Wario all likely have some reason or another to scale to Mario's LS.
When Mario can lift & punt castles, him, or his associates, failing to even slightly lift the weight of 10 Bowsers seems a little subpar for them, no?
What if it's Plot-Induced Stupidity, though?

Though, I'd argue part of the point of presenting that cutscene was that it shows that with just 1 Power Star, an insurmountable weight became trivially easy to handle for them. The exact level of the amplification is unclear, but it would seem to be big, even if without that multiplier, the cutscene presents the character as, with no power star, below what some of their other highest feats -Especially at the time- put them near.

 

[Eficiente]

it ain't an anti-feat for Mario, cuz nothing suggests that's what the Power Star caps at; made pretty evident by how Bowser is thrown across the entire planet instead of a few hundred or so meters

and the one-shot argument doesn't hold up either, as Bowser wasn't amped by a Power Star while Mario was

You keep saying things that are pretty clearly wrong, if you end up recognizing this, then I'm gonna have to ask you to mind that properly, please. This is an anti-feat for Mario, I didn't say that the Power Star caps at that, you did so to deflect the issue & avoid thinking further about it because you got your hands into something you could be right on, I said quote "Bowser weighing 10 times over is below Class G, and much, much below Multi-Stellar. They're not even competing their LS against each other." meaning that it's an anti-feat for what base Mario is said to have as his LS and what this thread asks his LS to become. This thread asks his LS to be Interstellar at base, yet base Mario here fails to this w/o a Power Star.

The one-shot argument doesn't hold up as Medeus argued quote "various characters are stronger than the combined might of dozens of them which Mario in turn has been in the same ballpark as those enemies", in a comment that you liked. I don't believe you disagreed with that bit, that would be false, it's easier for one to believe based on this that you had no idea of the implications going on & just agreed with anything that was in favor with how you want things to be, essentially mindlessly.

there is no "if it were true", it quite literally is, as it derives from the Power Star

and do you always make assumptions about a person's intentions when debating?

Once more, you don't understand what the argument says, I didn't mean it as in "the power doesn't come from the Power Star", but as in "general LS and LS via TK aren't the same when coming the same source". You are not keeping up.

If it follows logically in a remarkable way worth calling out, I might, if not, I keep what I think might be going on to myself & take everything in good faith. As one does.

Below Class G, even if we were to try to account for the force or such needed to throw such a metal Bowser into the stratosphere & beyond, as is done in the cutscene?

I do agree that it's a bit below par for the characters who can be the one to throw Metal Bowser in that cutscene. Mario, Luigi, Donkey Kong, Peach, Yoshi & Wario all likely have some reason or another to scale to Mario's LS.
When Mario can lift & punt castles, him, or his associates, failing to even slightly lift the weight of 10 Bowsers seems a little subpar for them, no?
What if it's Plot-Induced Stupidity, though?

Though, I'd argue part of the point of presenting that cutscene was that it shows that with just 1 Power Star, an insurmountable weight became trivially easy to handle for them. The exact level of the amplification is unclear, but it would seem to be big, even if without that multiplier, the cutscene presents the character as, with no power star, below what some of their other highest feats -Especially at the time- put them near.

Well, I take baby steps on the matter; It's an anti-feat but you can have anti-feats w/o removing the stats or things everyone scales to, I don't do anything with it beyond pointing it out with a finger and calling it an anti-feat. If I were to do something with it, I would like to do heavy research along the way.

 

[AStrangeverse]

You keep saying things that are pretty clearly wrong, if you end up recognizing this, then I'm gonna have to ask you to mind that properly, please. This is an anti-feat for Mario, I didn't say that the Power Star caps at that, you did so to deflect the issue & avoid thinking further about it because you got your hands into something you could be right on, I said quote "Bowser weighing 10 times over is below Class G, and much, much below Multi-Stellar. They're not even competing their LS against each other." meaning that it's an anti-feat for what base Mario is said to have as his LS and what this thread asks his LS to become. This thread asks his LS to be Interstellar at base, yet base Mario here fails to this w/o a Power Star.

The one-shot argument doesn't hold up as Medeus argued quote "various characters are stronger than the combined might of dozens of them which Mario in turn has been in the same ballpark as those enemies", in a comment that you liked. I don't believe you disagreed with that bit, that would be false, it's easier for one to believe based on this that you had no idea of the implications going on & just agreed with anything that was in favor with how you want things to be, essentially mindlessly.

Once more, you don't understand what the argument says, I didn't mean it as in "the power doesn't come from the Power Star", but as in "general LS and LS via TK aren't the same when coming the same source". You are not keeping up.

If it follows logically in a remarkable way worth calling out, I might, if not, I keep what I think might be going on to myself & take everything in good faith. As one does.

damn, can't really refute that

but das fine, I just gotta do a better job at paying attention

 

[Imaginym]

Well, I take baby steps on the matter; It's an anti-feat but you can have anti-feats w/o removing the stats or things everyone scales to, I don't do anything with it beyond pointing it out with a finger and calling it an anti-feat. If I were to do something with it, I would like to do heavy research along the way.

What of the notion that can be inferred from it that a Power Star can increase the Lifting Strength of the affected?
Statistics Amplification, AFAIK, is a Power/Ability, rather than a statistic.

 

[Eficiente]

That's correct.

 

[Imaginym]

That's correct.

What would you assess the limitations & capabilities of that increasing of Lifting Strength to be, even very roughly?

 

[Eficiente]

"[[Statistics Amplification]] ([https://youtu.be/ghh09oiKmeI?t=669 Can be used to increase a user's strength; Mario on his own going from being unable to lift & spin a Bowser weighing 10 times more into easily lifting & tossing him across the planet with a Power Star, one-shotting him]<ref>Mario Party 2</ref>)"

Lifting Strength: "Unknown physically (Uses its powers instead), Class G via Statistics Amplification (Users can go from being low-tiers such as [Examples here] on their own, into competing evenly, if losing against [[Mario]], who needs to toss them many times to make them fall where he wants. [https://youtu.be/ghh09oiKmeI?t=669 Mario on his own was unable to lift & spin a Bowser weighing 10 times more, then easily lifted & tossed him across the planet with a Power Star]<ref>Mario Party 2</ref>), Multi-Stellar via Telekinesis ([https://youtu.be/fAnyTzALkRE?t=21034 On its own, a Power Star moved hundreds of stars in space at once, before using some of them to form a constellation [[[User blog:Mephistus/Mario Party 4 Power Star Feat|2.664E+33 kg]]]<ref>Mario Party 4</ref>)"

 

[AStrangeverse]

so, if I'm not misunderstanding, the boost from a Power Star is a 10x amp in statistics?

you know: AP, Dura, Speed, and etc, or would that still only apply to LS

 

[Mephistus]

Below Class G, even if we were to try to account for the force or such needed to throw such a metal Bowser into the stratosphere & beyond, as is done in the cutscene?

The amped feat looks like Class M to G - but it should be properly calculated.

The difference between merely lifting up ten Bowsers and throwing them into the stratosphere is going to be more than 10x a multiplier, but not a stated one in all likelihood.

Where MP2 falls in the timeline where he had the castle lifting feat compared to Super Mario World is unknown though. Could be post Mario Party 2 events.

 

[AStrangeverse]

Bump

 

[Mephistus]

Power Star Strength Boost: As Shown in Mario Party 2

vsbattles.fandom.com

I think they had reservations about him not leaving the planet in the shot even though he comes back down just as quickly in a toony manner...so heck let's roll with it.

Based on visually accelerating to leave out of the atmosphere (going past about 1000 km in roughly .5 seconds (15 frames at 30 fps for the time to outer space after he lets go) and him being ~33152 kg via the square cube law calc figure found there)

Velocity = 1,000,000 m / .5 s = 2,000,000 m/s

Acceleration = 2,000,000 m/s / .5 seconds = 4,000,000 m/s^2

Force = 33152 kg * 4,000,000 m/s^2 = 132608000000 newtons or 13308689 Tons

Class G

You could potentially angsize to get the exact distance he's away from the surface of the planet instead of visually assuming just 1000 km, which would get it higher into that range

 

[AStrangeverse]

bump

 

[AStrangeverse]

bump