Maou Gakuin Revisions

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Took some time.

Anos Voldigoad​

AP​

Pretty simple, he gets upgraded to 5-A via this calc:https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Ionliosite/Maou_Gakuin:_Arnos_moves_the_moon

Lay Glanzudlii scales to it
-----------------------------------------
Additionally, Anos was shown being capable of casting a "world-destroying magic" that increases his power to the point where the world/universe begins to tremble with each step he makes, with the last step being capable of completely destroying everything.

Silently, I chant its magic.



<Nirvana Seven Steps Conqueror Gili Eliam Naviem>



　A magic that releases the magic of destruction condensed at the root, releasing the magic of destruction with every step, instantly raising my power to the bottom.



　Facing the trace god, I stepped out loosely.



　The Nirvana Seven Steps Conqueror <Gili Elium Naviem> raises all of my power.

　The only thing I did this time, both in terms of releasing my magic power, was to just walk--



　Step one--

　The huge bookshelves that line the ground have all collapsed, and all the books with traces of the world on them have been thrown into the air.



　Page after page is opened to show the traces of this world.



　The shadows of countless people appear in the wilderness. And in the next moment, they were crushed and destroyed without a trace by my first step.



　The second step--.

　The book breaks apart as it flies through the air, and countless pages are scattered.



　Swarms of creatures appear in the water, birds and dragons in the sky in shadows.

　Those traces are trampled by my feet, and all the creatures perish in an untold number of ways.



　The third step--.

　The land shakes, and countless scattered pages pop off.



　As the canopy disappears and the firmament appears, traces of the sun, the stars and the moon float in the air.

　Their shadows are trampled by my first step and perish beyond the sky.



　The fourth step--.

　Shards of scattered pages, fragments of traces, were further atomized.



　The world cracked to pieces, the lake dried up, and every plant and tree withered and perished.



　The fifth step--.

　A number of bookshelves are rising up again in the land as if they were carved with the marks of destruction.

　They shake and shatter in an instant as if they were trampled.



　The sky is crushed by my step, and the shattered heavens flicker above my head.



　The sixth step--

　The earliest traces of nothingness on the world were simply trampled and shook violently.



　The only remaining light in front of my eyes was trampled by my step, and the world was closed in darkness.



　The seventh step--

　I was about to tick off my paces when I stopped moving with a snap.



　The land of the trail is gone, and the surroundings are back to the cobblestone floor.

　If I had taken this seventh step on the floor, the world would have nearly perished a thousand times and I would have made change.



''Hmm. I made it as a spell to conquer even the earth of traces after seven steps, but it's quite a failure. If you take seven steps, you'll have nothing left.



　By the sixth step, all traces of destruction had been carved into that world, and the world of traces had exceeded its capacity.

　The world could not bear it anymore and it would collapse.

Since even the first steps are capable of shaking the world/universe, affecting the sun and stars, with the last one being capable of fully destroying, this would give Anos a "4-A, up to 3-A" rating with Nirvana Seven Steps

Speed​

Continued from this thread. Arnos reacts to and dodges an attack from Gazzelle after the latter turned into light itself and achieved lightspeed.

This would give Anos FTL speeds.

Lay Glanzudlii scales to it

The Origin​

So, lets talk about the Origin (or Root/Source). Its currently treated as something that resides in the soul, or just the soul itself. But, thats not exactly correct.

Root or Origin exists beyond the psyche (mind) and soul; and its what makes us, us, being the concept that defines an individual (since it also exists across the timeline).

Magic is born in the first place from the demonic roots that lies within one's body. You would speak more commonly of the soul and psyche, 'but the roots lies even deeper - they are what makes us, us.

Do you get it now? A pain that surpasses death itself is felt when your origin is hurt. Try to condense every possible pain in this world and it wouldn’t be enough to match this pain. Its the death of your next life, and the next one and so on into eternity. All your future reincarnations and deaths are packed into this one spot.

One should not confuse the origin with the soul, as they are essentially different things.

“2 divided souls. Due to its origin, it is destined to return to being one. Don’t you think there should be another origin?”

''“Sorry. No magic can produce the exact same person. There is only one origin for everything in this world.”''

Normally, due to Arnos being able to regenerate from his Origin, this would give him Mid-Godly, as the origin exists beyond the mind and soul, and is the concept that defines someone's personal existence. But, in his fight with Jerga, Anos was shown capable of regenerating in a blink of an eye even after his origin was destroyed. This would effectively give him High-Godly, plus he also adapted to the attack (since the same thing doesnt work on him again)

Power Additions​

Weapon Mastery: He is skilled enough to keep up with Lay Glanzudlii in a sword duel.

Life Manipulation: Created the Seven Elder Demon Emperors with his own blood

Invisibility: Can become invisible and conceal his magic power

Power Bestowal: Can restore the magic power of others with his own

Absorption: Capable of absorbing energy and magic power

Existence Erasure: Can make a target's body disappear without trace by injecting Beno Yeven on them

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3) (Without Venuzdonoa): His demon eye of confusion can obliterate principles, reasons and conflict

Regeneration Negation: Venuzdonoa is capable of completely destroying the target's origin. Ivis Necron when fused with the embodiment of the world's providence still couldn't regenerate after having been cut by the sword. Bypassed Jerga's immortality/regeneration that was reliant on a concept.

Information Analysis & Reactive Evolution: The same power doesnt work on him twice due to his demon eyes and analytical ability.

Law Manipulation: Venuzdonoa does this by proxy.

Immortality Negation (Types 4 and 8): Venuzdonoa was capable of killing and bypassing Jerga's immortality

Resistances​

Mind Manipulation: Unnafected by the demon eyes of ruin, which can affect a target's mind

Power Nullification & Attack Reflection: Capable of using his powers in areas that are supposed to nullify his abilities. Unnafected by anti-magic circles, weapons and reflection barriers

Fate Manipulation: Capable of changing, breaking and overturning fate. Can destroy miracles, providences and fate. Capable of resisting and obliterating Eques's <Beld Rase Femblem>, which induces a predetermined fate that works even if you go the past before the ability was used

Power Modification: Anos's powers do not obey Nousgalia's divine orders

Conceptual Manipulation & Pain Manipulation: Capable of staying unbothered and alive for a while even after his origin was damaged by Evans Mana

Venuzdonoa​

From the already existing description from the profile, Venuzdonoa is capable of destroying everything in creation, "no matter how infinite they are."

''“I’ll give you a pleasant memory to take into the afterlife. Principle destroying sword Venuzdonoa. It can destroy all things in creation and is the sword of the founder. Whether it be destiny, providence or a miracle. In front of me, they can do nothing but grovel and disappear.”''

''No matter how strong, eternal or infinite Venuzdonoa will destroy them all.''

''In front of this principle destroying sword all reason becomes illogical.''

But what would be all of creation? Lets take a look at this quote:

Again, the ship accelerated, and countless bubbles could be seen flowing in front of him.



''Is this ......?''


Ray gasped at the scene around him.

Even Shin's gaze was steely, as if he couldn't hide his astonishment.


We were in a sea of spilling silver light.


If you look back, what you see is an endlessly huge, round bubble of silver light.

If you look into it with your eyes, you can certainly see the magic of the creator god Militia.


This silver bubble is the world we were in.

In other words, we went out of that world.

''If the world looks like that silver bubble from the outside, then this light might be all of them radiating.



Are you saying that there's another world as big as this light?



　Shin turned his magic eye on the numerous lights.

　A tremendous number of them, to the point where it would be ridiculous to count them.



''Haha. I'm sure you'll be able to find it your way. You could get lost by accident.



"It's no laughing matter, though."

"The depth of the world is the strength of the world's order. It is the amount of influence that the small world has on the Silver Water Holy Sea. Magic power flows from the shallow layers to the deep, and order exerts its power from the shallow to the deep."



　The spherical blackboard must be a magic tool. A silver bubble appeared through it and inside it.

　It seemed to imitate the five shallow worlds and one deep world.



"Let's say the shallow world has ten magical powers and ten orders of weight. The same goes for the deeper worlds.



　"Shallow World. Ten magical powers and ten in weight."

　"Deep world. Ten magic power and ten weight", he added.



"In accordance with the order of the Silver Water Holy Sea, the magic power flows to the deep layer and the order exerts its power in the deep places. The magic power in the shallow world will move one, and the orderly function will also move one.



　Magic and weight are drawn as one.

　"Shallow World. Nine magic power and nine weight' was rewritten as 'The shallow world."



"Magic and order are given to the deep world and turned into power."



　From each of the five shallow worlds, one magic power and weight were transferred from each of the five shallow worlds, for a total of five magic powers and five weights, which were added to the magic power and weight that the deep world originally possessed.



　In the deep world, it was 'fifteen magic power and fifteen weight.



"In reality, it's not as simple as this, but this is the basic ordering principle of the Silver Water Holy Sea. A world that possesses numerous magical powers and where order works strongly is heavy and sinks into the abyss. Thus, it is considered deep".

"It is mainly in the bubble world that the movement of fire and dew takes place. This is what we call the countless dark bubbles floating in the Silver Water Holy Sea. It is said that all worlds begin with bubbles. Even the deep world, located in the depths of this ocean, was one bubble in the beginning."

Due to the cosmology having countless worlds/universes, it would bump it to 2-B (or possibly 2-B), and Venuzdonoa would scale since it can destroy all of creation

Lay Granzdulli​

Regeneration & Immortality (Types 3, 4 & 8): Will always come back to life as long as his Origins (concept) exists. Can also regenerate even his destroyed origins, but this takes time.

Fate Manipulation: His sword, evansmana, can cut fate itself.

Regeneration Negation (Low-Mid): Prevented Anos from healing his lost arm. (This feat happened prior to Anos's fight with Jerga, so it only counts for Low-Mid)

Conceptual Manipulation: Can directly affect a target's Origin with Evansmana.

Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation & Pain Manipulation: Can survive for a while after his origin is cut when a normal person would be destroyed.

 

[Ionliosite]

Since I was here since the beginning seeing all the evidence, I obviously agree.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Okay some very obvious issues with this

Those quotes on the origin do not, in the slightest, mean its their concept. All it says it's that its something deeper than the soul, so while it may exist in the soul, its not the same. "They are what makes us- us" does not mean its their concept, you need more evidence than that.

Regenerating from destroying it can only be done via a specific combo of powers, so that should be noted on the profile as well if thats used to give any sort of rating, although I doubt it will since again, that's not enough for it being a concept.

Issue two is for the sword.

Simply put. Its very, very clearly hax. The sword does not have high 3-A, or now 2-B, AP, its the principle and erasure stuff that the quote is referring to, it even says "all that can be reasoned returns to nothing before this principle destroying sword". I'm not sure how you can stretch that to be AP.

Everything else as far as I know is fine though.

 

[Ionliosite]

Simply put. Its very, very clearly hax. The sword does not have high 3-A, or now 2-B, AP, its the principle and erasure stuff that the quote is referring to, it even says "all that can be reasoned returns to nothing before this principle destroying sword". I'm not sure how you can stretch that to be AP.

We list a tier for hax if it can destroy/affect constructs on that level: see Yogiri Takatou and Noel Vermillion.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Wdym by "specific combo of powers"?

We can give a tier to haxy abilities if they can destroy Higher-D structures with it. Example of this is Zeno, Yogiri, Monika, etc

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Also, if origin was just the soul, people wouldn't straight up get erased after the desctruction of it, but they do.

 

[Paul_Frank]

He only was able to regenerate the origin by combining revide with agronemut. That's what I meant

As for the being erased after destruction thing. I uhh... I'm not seeing where that logic is coming from. You're essentially saying "they're erased after its destroyed so it must be a concept" which is just, lolno, plenty of verses treat soul destruction as erasure. And again, I didn't say it was the soul, in fact I agreed with the quote where it said the origin something deeper than that.
This issue is that being deeper than the soul doesn't mean its a concept, and neither does being erased when it's destroyed, thats not at all a wiki standard.

@Ionliosite

Fair enough, you can list hax as a tier, although the majority of the time we don't do that, there hasn't been a consensus on it so eh. Just wanted to make sure people don't continue treating it as AP, because they've tried doing so up till now.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Yeah, thats true. But the issue is that he didnt need to activate when Jerga sliced his origin. He didnt even know it was a origin killer sword before he got targetted by it. He only noticed that after regenerating himself.

I mean, I said that because one does not get erased after being soulhaxed. At least, thats not what soulhax is supposed to do. Only the soul would get affect, but in this case the entire existence is gone.

Another example is when Jerga gave up of his body and fused his origin with Ask, he basicaly became a living concept.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I'm 90% sure he did. Like that's exactly what he did whenever his origin was destroyed, he uses revide to make the condition of "having received the attack before" be met, so agronemut can take effect.

That depends on the verse, its entirely possible for a verse to treat soul destruction as straight up erasing people, so thats not really an argument as for why it has to be a concept.

Jerga turned his origin into two magics. Eleonore, and Asc, with the latter getting his hatred of demons mixed into it, which is what allowed him to become a living magic. This however wasn't fully Jerga, as he was missing everything besides the whole "Kill all demons for humanity" part, since Eleonore ended up with all of that.

 

[Ionliosite]

That depends on the verse, its entirely possible for a verse to treat soul destruction as straight up erasing people, so thats not really an argument as for why it has to be a concept.

When has soul destruction erased people? Mainly relevant to an example from this verse, but if you seriously claim that happens in other verses, I want the proof.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

The scan and the dialogue implies that he only noticed that it was an origin sword killer after being attacked. If he had noticed before then yeah, we could assume he had used the ability beforehand.

Thats more on the grounds of speculation, though

Fair, but Ask isnt exactly a concept, its an order of the world. Yet, he still became a concept since his "body" was only his origin and Ask.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Why are you asking for examples? Souls aren't threated consistently across fiction, they can act however the hell the author wants.

Hell, i've seen verses where souls are also concepts, and also minds. If destroying the soul EEs someone here, then just give everyone with soul destruction EE.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Oh, and also, people's bodies get erased once their souls are destroyed in The Good Place, so there's your example.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Well, for starters, origin and soul are kinda different from each other

And, when the origin is destroyed not only the target gets erased but their future as well.

 

[Paul_Frank]

He doesn't need to use it preemptively though? He can literally use it as a reaction, in fact, that combo only works as a reaction since you use rivide to send agronemut to the future so that the condition is already met.

As for the soul destruction examples, I could provide some but honestly, what Crimson said is true. There aren't fiction wide rules for how souls work, there aren't wiki wide rules for how souls work. So again, origin destruction erasing people doesn't mean its a concept thing, its just a verse mechanic where destruction of the origin leads to erasure.

To be simple, you need more than what you have for origins to be considered concepts.

As for the Jerga example, yes, he referred to himself as an order of the world and said he couldn't be defeated because of it and all that. His body at that point was just the magic, his origin had been made into Asc and Eleonore as stated by Eleonore, but that doesn't make him a concept, unless there was some line I completely missed when reading. When sufficient magic is gathered by Asc, the demon judgement magic Jerga, can activate, allowing him to manifest in a body made of magic using the hatred side of his origin from what I remember.

What was meant by "their future is erased" is that they can't reincarnate. Which makes sense from what we know, since the origin has to be there to reincarnate.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

It honestly makes more sense for this to be information manipulation than concept manip. Reminds me of Fate's saint graphs/spirit origins. They're the "CPU" of spiritual beings/souls, and definine/contain the information of the physical being.

Also, everything else besides this is fine.

 

[GLHF22]

Possibly 2-B is safest option, for Regeneration im neutral but inclined to agree with Paul, since i have seen something similar in Slime. Everything else is looks fine.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Wait, why information?

I'll wait to see what CP thinks of this origin convo, then

It seems I was partially mistaken regarding Jerga and Asuk. He did mention being a concept, so Ask would be both an order and concept (assuming the concept stuff comes from Ask and not his origin). So either Jerga's origin is a concept or he became a concept after fusing with Ask due to the latter being a concept/order of the world.

The flame pillar swells from the inside and an intact huge armoured figure walks out.

“I’ve already said <Jerga> is immortal. Even if you had your sword you can’t keep erasing its concept forever. The destruction of the mazoku is fated!!” (Jerga)

 

[Paul_Frank]

At that point <Jerga> is the name of the demon judgement spell, so my thoughts are that the spell itself became the concept due to being part of the world's order, which is why he says it can't be erased forever, unlike something like Eleonore, which was also made from his origin but didn't have the whole "can't be erased forever" thing

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Isn't the sword thingy's deal that it doesn't deal normal damage but just kills you? So it'd be hax and not AP right?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Yeah, but we can tier hax if it destroys Higher-D structures/stuff, weirdly enough.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think Tiering Hax is dumb but that's me.

 

[PhantomØ4]

I agree with everything on OP, except for high-godly on which I am neutral on as Arnos should have conceptual manipulation anyways.

 

[Zaratthustra]

I'm of the same opinion as Phantom. Regarding the High-Godly regen, I can't truly help since I didn't read the novel so I'm not sure how their existence works and the like but baring this power, I can see all things working fine. This one should be likely more debated between the supporters.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Well, Im waiting for CP's input. And I also want to know Crimson's reasoning as to why he thought the origin could be information (I assume its because they make up a person's existence, and they get deletus when its destroyed?)

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Because of how they say "it's what makes "us" us" and how it's what makes up a person's next life and their future reincarnation. Making up your existence is pretty good too.

Personally not a fan of giving someone concept manip unless concepts are explicitly mentioned.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Even if the origins of humans and mazoku isnt their concept, I believe the spirits and half-spirits's origins would probably still qualify. This doesnt really scale to Anos though (except for his Bebbzud), but I think its worth noting for future reference.

“Rumours and legends are the source of a spirit’s power or more precisely rumours and legends form the spirits origin so even if you give them magic power directly their condition won’t improve.”-Chapter 55

“Rumours and legends form her origin. Rumours and legends also form your origin. I’ll join your two origins and transfer some of your power to Sheila but since your origins are different I’ll alter your power during the transfer to Sheila so it matches her origin. Hopefully, she’ll recover to some extent.”

“……..But, how was her spirit disease cured? If the origin is weakened or gone it cannot be recovered by magic………” Misa asks me.

“It was a simple thing. I spread the rumours that formed Sheila’s origin.”-V2 Epilogue

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Agree with mostly everything. About origins, from what's said there, it's different from the mind and soul, and is deeper than them, and are what makes a person a person, to me it does sound conceptual or at least an essence, i know there have been discussions about the distinctions between the two, but i wouldn't exactly classify myself as an expert on them.

 

[Zaratthustra]

I agree with Celestial Pegasu's opinion, seem reasonable and make sense with the examples from above.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Celestial Pegasus’ opinion makes sense to me, I agree.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I stand by "being deeper than the mind and soul" and "making a person a person" not being sufficient evidence to say its a concept. Some sort of essence maybe, but thats too vague to really count as anything in specific tbh.

You could probably ask some of the concept people if it's enough evidence then, since even Celestial in his post clarifies that he wouldn't count himself as an expert on that

Spirits origins based on the above though, do seem to be more abstract, being formed of the rumors and such giving them power, I'll agree on that

 

[PhantomØ4]

Just add Essence Manipulation

 

[Elizhaa]

Origins seem fine as concepts, from what I read, to me. This point looks like good evidence that origins are universal within the verse below; I think origins would be type 3.

“2 divided souls. Due to its origin, it is destined to return to being one. Don’t you think there should be another origin?”

''“Sorry. No magic can produce the exact same person. There is only one origin for everything in this world.”''

I think someone like DT can be asked to check if he or she wants; I believe DontTalkDT is more knowledgeable on conceptual manipulation than me.

I think everything looks fine.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I'll ask for DT's opinion on the matter

It seems everything else was accepted without issues, so can I apply those in the meanwhile?

 

[Elizhaa]

Yes, I think you can apply all the other changes not really related to "origin".

 

[RamadhanDayYet]

i think you should mention this aswell
in the silver sea there's 99 level

and each higher lv has power stronger than anything in lower lv
even if you can destroy the lower world you can't destroy stracth a ship hull in higher world

everything in deeper world are different even speed and grain of air is different


"In this little world, which exists deeper than your little world, the power of all things is in another dimension. Strength, speed, stubbornness, magic, everything. Even a grain of air is a weight to you. If I unleash a spell to destroy your shallow world, you won't be able to destroy a single ship here.

Balzalondo says, as if to admonish me.

"You don't want to destroy me, you want me to surrender," he says.

"I suppose he's a strong man in your world.

Barzalondo points to Ray.

'But in the earlier game I was holding back. Even after I went easy on him, the man couldn't keep up with my speed. If this Baltzalondo was serious, the world would be destroyed to that degree. Let me make it clear."

but arnos could destroy the ship with a single kick because

And the silver world soldier could destroy the bubble world of militia world just by his existence

and because the depth of the world,you can use the lower world as shogi aswell

And arnos stronger than them all because he's cut the abbysal of thirst,the predatory concept of abbsysal world who deeper than silver sea structure

and venuzdonoa is created to control his destruction root (his truest power)

also there's countless worlds like militia world

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I mean, thats still 2-B

 

[RamadhanDayYet]

yeah that's still 2-B ,but it's probably important tho

 

[RamadhanDayYet]

even pre silver sea sasha could destroy hundred and thousand worlds

and her eyes could deattach the bottom of silver sea structure

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Sasha doesnt have a profile yet, though. Anyway, lets not throw up more things than what is needed here, this thread is almost complete. I'll make another one in the future with more stuff.