- 87
- 7
So I found this, And I wanted to see what others thought about it. Does it add or change anything? just curious
This is the original Reddit post, in case anybody needs it.
this individual called MurphyParadox made it!
For context, I lost a bet to Cave a while ago and had to read 15 Volumes of this. So, here's my thoughts on the entirety of the Light Novel's Cosmology and Anos' Scaling within it.
Part One: Law & Order
To begin, we have to talk about the primordial aspects of reality; Order. These are, so to speak, the fundamental Laws that govern all aspects of existence.
As Eldmed says, these are the fundamental principles of the Universe.
Order defines what beings are. It is what makes a bird a bird, a demon a demon, the World the World.
Once Abernyu was sealed away by Anos, Destruction came to a halt in tandem with its Order.
To become one with the Order of the World is to become a "pure concept".
So, Orders are, in their Nature, Independent Universal Concepts. Though a lot more Statements can be found within the Light Novel, a full exhibition of Order is beyond the reaches of this Post. Rozan's Scale provides a better view on the Nature of Order as a whole.
Besides that, we know that the Order of Time exists.
as well as the Order of Space
So, the argument is effectively that, the Gods who govern the Orders of Time and Space, are the very Abstractions of those Concepts. Due to how Universal Independent Concepts work, any quantitative extension of Space and/or Time would still logically fall under its designated Concept and find itself inferior to it. As such, these Concepts are 1-A. However, there is a bit more to consider, particularly as it pertains to the Nature of Gods as Abstractions at all.
This notion is first questioned by Anos in Chapter 72 of Volume 4; in which Anos posits that Gods are not Order at all.
Throughout their conversation, Nosgalia reinstates that Gods are merely the logic of the World, and as such, they cannot feel fear. Anos takes him up on this, and eventually succeeds to making the Heavenly Father succumb to it. Though Nosgalia once again denies it, Anos challenges him to laugh in his face to prove he, in fact, doesn't feel fear. Though he succeeds in this, Nosgalia laughing simply confirms Anos' suspicions.
It isn't until Six Volumes later that this issue is yet again expanded upon.
Throughout the following Chapter, the Nature of Gods and their relation to Order is explained.
However, the Chief God himself is not the culmination of Order, but rather the culmination of Gods.
Despite being the supposed culminations of Abstractions, Chief Gods rarely lack a Material Form.
Rather than being the World Order, a Chief God symbolizes it.
Particularly, we can denote this as the different between the Types of Abstract Existence; in that, whereas Type 1 Abstract Existence entails being an Abstraction, Type 2 embodies one.
This distinction is important to make because really, embodying an Abstraction is inherently different because of the implication of a Physical Manifestation. When talking about Universal Independents; VSBW posits that everything in reality derives from and participates in them, an idea proposed by Plato in his Theory of Forms. Functionally, this means that reality itself is an embodiment of such Concepts. For an example, every instance of Space participates in the Abstraction that governs it. As such, Type 2 Abstract Existence doesn't Scale one to that Abstraction, only inherently granting one Conceptual Manipulation and Immortality tied to it. In short; Type 1 Abstracts are 1-A, Type 2 aren't.
Part Two: The Denotation of Dimensions
Moving on from discussing Concepts, I wanted to touch on the usage of the term "Dimension" in Maou Gakuin, as there are exist such Statements within the Verse. The first of these arguments revolves around there being a mention of Infinite Dimensions leading up to the Azure Skies, and that 次元 (Jigen), the Kanji used to refer to the Dimensions in this instance, denotes to the Mathematical meaning of the word, rather than entailing a different plane of existence.
Though false, this is a common misconception, in that 次元 does not solely refer to Mathematical Axes, but rather as is just as versatile as its English counterpart. For a direct example of this, we can turn to the Light Novel itself.
In this instance the term "Dimension" is very clearly used in context to a plane of existence rather than a Mathematical Axis. The reason this is significant is because in the Japanese, 次元 is used to refer to the Dimension; demonstrably showing the versatility of the term even within the Verse itself.
Here, I also want to discuss the argument for Aeges' Spear. Rozan refers to it as transcending Dimensions, Space and Time. However, rather than denoting to any ontological superiority over them, this is in reference to the spear's capacity to slice through the fabric, as such ignoring them.
Part Three: The Silver Sea
Perhaps the most well-known part of Maou Gakuin's Cosmology, the Silver Sea is; essentially, that which holds the Totality of Worlds of the Verse. It turns out that the World of The Goddess of Creation is but a bubble within an Endless expanse of Worlds, existing in a hierarchical relation to each other.
The World of Militia is perceived as a "bubble" from outside, and an uncountable amount of Bubbles like within the ocean.
The hierarchy that permeates the sea functions on the amount of Fire Dew a World has; the strength of its Order.
So, Fire Dew measures the Strength of World Order. And so, functionally, the argument posits that, since Fire Dew measures the most fundamental aspect of existence, Deeper Worlds having "more Fire Dew" than Shallower ones would make them more fundamental and profound Conceptually. As such; High 1-A.
In attempting to understand the problem with this, it is important to explain how Tiering functions from 1-A and on. Though CSAP doesn't provide as much an intricate explanation as VSBW, their Standards are virtually the same as it pertains to this Tier.
The definition of 1-A that VSBW offers expresses it as exhibiting a "qualitative" difference over the Lower Tiers, rather than a quantitative one. To explain, Lower Tiers are superior to each other in a numerical sense, this means that one is merely an expression of the other (e.g.; the sum of an uncountably Infinite Number of Low 2-C Spaces is Low 1-C). Practically, this extends through every Tier, so High 1-B can really be thought of as a collection of 11-C Points. 1-A rejects this notion, in that you cannot express it through the previous Tiers, making the difference one of quality. Likewise, High 1-A exhibits a qualitative difference over 1-A.
Coming to understand this also brings up the issue in the argument regarding the Silver Sea. In that, the depth of the World is defined in the amount, or quantity, of Fire Dew. So, the difference is not qualitative, but rather quantitative. Fire Dew being Conceptual does not affect this, because a Concept being more prevalent or "strong" in one world does not change its intrinsic ontology.
Furthermore, there are a few Standards that a Space has to conform to in being 1-A and higher, that it must not come in contrast with. Both major Tiering Systems entail that 1-A is "Beyond Dimensions", CSAP outright stating as such as VSBW referring to the Tier as being "beyond the scope of material composition." As such, because they cannot be defined by any Dimensional Space, they do not partake in any Form of Space or Time, which define the parameters of Dimensions. Simply put; Space-Time cannot confine a ≥1-A Space.
Anos is capable of casting Rivide within the Silver Sea, a Spell used to reverse time.
Yzak's crystals are capable of freezing Time within the Silver Sea.
Aeges' spear is capable of warping Space and distorting the Space-Time Continuum of the Sixth Elenesia, within one of the Deepest Layers of the Silver Sea.
So, to simplify, besides the Statements not pointing to a High 1-A Silver Sea, the World is confined by both Space as well as Time, and this quality is consistently reaffirmed throughout the Light Novel, as such, it cannot be ≥1-A.
Part Four: Nonduality
And so, we have reached the last section of this Post and the most famous of Anos' Scaling in the consensus. That is, Nonduality Type 3. Though often mistaken as the culprit Anos' High 1-A, that much has already been addressed in the Silver Sea, and thus it is necessary to take a deeper look into his Plurality. Maou Gakuin's Nonduality can be further subdivided into three. Those are; that of Order, that of Arcana, and that of the Unfit.
Let's begin with Order, as it is the most fundamental of these, and that which the others revolve around. As already discusses in Part One, Order as a whole forms one unified Nature, and that much is revealed in Volume 10.
Orders are intertwined with each other. That is to say, there can be no thing without its polar opposite.
Despite this, opposing Orders cannot exist at the same time
So, Order as a unified entity, as well as the Supreme God which embodies it, are Nondual (Type 2), and that much is obvious. Moving on, it is important to address the Goddess of Absurdity, Arcana, as well as the Unfit. Arcana's Order is that of Absurdity, or contradiction, and with it she's capable of actualizing such contradictions.
As for the Unfit, these are entities completely disconnected from Order. Particularly notable here is Anos, an entity described by Dilfred as being the opposition to the World's Order.
Thus, what the argument comes down to is the Goddess of Absurdity, who governs contradiction, as well as Anos, who exists completely dethatched from Order, have Nonduality Type 3. Yet again, to understand the issue with this, and Anos' Plurality is particular, it is important to define Plurality as a whole.
Plurality, in the most simple of terms can be thought of as Nonduality to Nonduality. That is to say, whereas one with Nonduality occupies a third state of logic, in that they're neither "X" nor "not X" where X is any given attribute, Plurality can be defined as neither Duality nor Nonduality. It, as such, occupies a fifth logical state, where the first four are "X", "not X", "both X and not X", "neither X nor not X".
With this definition established, it becomes easy to view the issue regarding Anos moving forth; in that, he is the polar opposite of Order. Defining Order as Nondual, and Anos as its opposite, one has not accomplished to achieve a fifth logical state, but rather fit Anos into the very distinction that Plurality is beyond. That is to say, Anos is not beyond the distinction of Duality and Nonduality, but rather his Chaos fits into the distinction between those two. Particularly, Anos' Chaos seems to occupy a fourth logical state in this instance, in that, whereas Order contains both aspects of a Duality, Chaos contains neither, and as such, Dilfred refers to Chaos as that which exists rather than simply a lack of Order.
To put everything into perspective. Individual Orders such as Creation and Destruction, as well as Abortion and Birth, occupy two logical states of "X" and "not X", whereas Order as a unified entity holds both, it is as such "both X and not X". Anos' Chaos, being the opposite of Order and absence of it, is likewise, "neither X nor not X". As for Arcana, like Order, she is capable of actualizing both states of Dual System, and as such occupies both. As such, the Order of Absurdity, as well as she who embodies it, have Nonduality Type 2, in the same sense that Order as a unified entity does.
Going further, the typical argument for Nonduality being 1-A may be posited as something like "to simultaneously both assert and deny any given attribute as an aspect of oneself, one would need to be ontologically superior to said attribute". So, effectively, if one occupies both aspects of the Duality of, say, "Space" and "not Space", they would be qualitatively superior to it, and thus 1-A, as a result.
So, what's wrong with this view of it? Well, any Tier ≥1-A still participates in said ontological distinction. Particularly for this example, a 1-A Character would fall into the latter of these, being Aspatial in Nature. Effectively, this means that the lack of distinction between two logical states is not one-in-the-same with ontological superiority over it. Simply put; these things have nothing to do with each other, and as such, Nonduality does not entail 1-A Tiering.
So, the point is ultimately that, these arguments are weak, and not only do they not supplement anything remotely 1-A, but one such view of the Cosmology blatantly comes in contrast with its instinct ontology
This is the original Reddit post, in case anybody needs it.
this individual called MurphyParadox made it!
For context, I lost a bet to Cave a while ago and had to read 15 Volumes of this. So, here's my thoughts on the entirety of the Light Novel's Cosmology and Anos' Scaling within it.
Part One: Law & Order
To begin, we have to talk about the primordial aspects of reality; Order. These are, so to speak, the fundamental Laws that govern all aspects of existence.
As Eldmed says, these are the fundamental principles of the Universe.
- Volume 11, Chapter 4
Order defines what beings are. It is what makes a bird a bird, a demon a demon, the World the World.
- Volume 4, Chapter 6
Once Abernyu was sealed away by Anos, Destruction came to a halt in tandem with its Order.
- Volume 4, Chapter 6
To become one with the Order of the World is to become a "pure concept".
- Volume 3, Chapter 32
So, Orders are, in their Nature, Independent Universal Concepts. Though a lot more Statements can be found within the Light Novel, a full exhibition of Order is beyond the reaches of this Post. Rozan's Scale provides a better view on the Nature of Order as a whole.
Besides that, we know that the Order of Time exists.
- Volume 4, Chapter 39
as well as the Order of Space
- Volume 10, Chapter 23
So, the argument is effectively that, the Gods who govern the Orders of Time and Space, are the very Abstractions of those Concepts. Due to how Universal Independent Concepts work, any quantitative extension of Space and/or Time would still logically fall under its designated Concept and find itself inferior to it. As such, these Concepts are 1-A. However, there is a bit more to consider, particularly as it pertains to the Nature of Gods as Abstractions at all.
This notion is first questioned by Anos in Chapter 72 of Volume 4; in which Anos posits that Gods are not Order at all.
- Volume 4, Chapter 72
Throughout their conversation, Nosgalia reinstates that Gods are merely the logic of the World, and as such, they cannot feel fear. Anos takes him up on this, and eventually succeeds to making the Heavenly Father succumb to it. Though Nosgalia once again denies it, Anos challenges him to laugh in his face to prove he, in fact, doesn't feel fear. Though he succeeds in this, Nosgalia laughing simply confirms Anos' suspicions.
- Volume 4, Chapter 72
It isn't until Six Volumes later that this issue is yet again expanded upon.
- Volume 10, Chapter 24
Throughout the following Chapter, the Nature of Gods and their relation to Order is explained.
- Volume 10, Chapter 25
- Volume 10, Chapter 25
- Volume 10, Chapter 25
- Volume 10, Chapter 25
However, the Chief God himself is not the culmination of Order, but rather the culmination of Gods.
- Volume 10, Chapter 36
Despite being the supposed culminations of Abstractions, Chief Gods rarely lack a Material Form.
- Volume 14, Chapter 9
Rather than being the World Order, a Chief God symbolizes it.
So, just as Gods, Chief Gods are not Abstractions in and of themselves, but rather the culmination of all World Order in the same sense that Gods comprise of individual Order. Likewise, the Divine Domains found within the Azure Skies are materializations of Order.
- Volume 10, Chapter 8
Particularly, we can denote this as the different between the Types of Abstract Existence; in that, whereas Type 1 Abstract Existence entails being an Abstraction, Type 2 embodies one.
This distinction is important to make because really, embodying an Abstraction is inherently different because of the implication of a Physical Manifestation. When talking about Universal Independents; VSBW posits that everything in reality derives from and participates in them, an idea proposed by Plato in his Theory of Forms. Functionally, this means that reality itself is an embodiment of such Concepts. For an example, every instance of Space participates in the Abstraction that governs it. As such, Type 2 Abstract Existence doesn't Scale one to that Abstraction, only inherently granting one Conceptual Manipulation and Immortality tied to it. In short; Type 1 Abstracts are 1-A, Type 2 aren't.
Part Two: The Denotation of Dimensions
Moving on from discussing Concepts, I wanted to touch on the usage of the term "Dimension" in Maou Gakuin, as there are exist such Statements within the Verse. The first of these arguments revolves around there being a mention of Infinite Dimensions leading up to the Azure Skies, and that 次元 (Jigen), the Kanji used to refer to the Dimensions in this instance, denotes to the Mathematical meaning of the word, rather than entailing a different plane of existence.
Though false, this is a common misconception, in that 次元 does not solely refer to Mathematical Axes, but rather as is just as versatile as its English counterpart. For a direct example of this, we can turn to the Light Novel itself.
- Volume 9, Chapter 30
In this instance the term "Dimension" is very clearly used in context to a plane of existence rather than a Mathematical Axis. The reason this is significant is because in the Japanese, 次元 is used to refer to the Dimension; demonstrably showing the versatility of the term even within the Verse itself.
Here, I also want to discuss the argument for Aeges' Spear. Rozan refers to it as transcending Dimensions, Space and Time. However, rather than denoting to any ontological superiority over them, this is in reference to the spear's capacity to slice through the fabric, as such ignoring them.
- Volume 4, Chapter 34
Part Three: The Silver Sea
Perhaps the most well-known part of Maou Gakuin's Cosmology, the Silver Sea is; essentially, that which holds the Totality of Worlds of the Verse. It turns out that the World of The Goddess of Creation is but a bubble within an Endless expanse of Worlds, existing in a hierarchical relation to each other.
The World of Militia is perceived as a "bubble" from outside, and an uncountable amount of Bubbles like within the ocean.
- Volume 11, Chapter 19
- Volume 11, Chapter 19
The hierarchy that permeates the sea functions on the amount of Fire Dew a World has; the strength of its Order.
- Volume 11, Chapter 22
- Volume 11, Chapter 22
So, Fire Dew measures the Strength of World Order. And so, functionally, the argument posits that, since Fire Dew measures the most fundamental aspect of existence, Deeper Worlds having "more Fire Dew" than Shallower ones would make them more fundamental and profound Conceptually. As such; High 1-A.
In attempting to understand the problem with this, it is important to explain how Tiering functions from 1-A and on. Though CSAP doesn't provide as much an intricate explanation as VSBW, their Standards are virtually the same as it pertains to this Tier.
The definition of 1-A that VSBW offers expresses it as exhibiting a "qualitative" difference over the Lower Tiers, rather than a quantitative one. To explain, Lower Tiers are superior to each other in a numerical sense, this means that one is merely an expression of the other (e.g.; the sum of an uncountably Infinite Number of Low 2-C Spaces is Low 1-C). Practically, this extends through every Tier, so High 1-B can really be thought of as a collection of 11-C Points. 1-A rejects this notion, in that you cannot express it through the previous Tiers, making the difference one of quality. Likewise, High 1-A exhibits a qualitative difference over 1-A.
Coming to understand this also brings up the issue in the argument regarding the Silver Sea. In that, the depth of the World is defined in the amount, or quantity, of Fire Dew. So, the difference is not qualitative, but rather quantitative. Fire Dew being Conceptual does not affect this, because a Concept being more prevalent or "strong" in one world does not change its intrinsic ontology.
Furthermore, there are a few Standards that a Space has to conform to in being 1-A and higher, that it must not come in contrast with. Both major Tiering Systems entail that 1-A is "Beyond Dimensions", CSAP outright stating as such as VSBW referring to the Tier as being "beyond the scope of material composition." As such, because they cannot be defined by any Dimensional Space, they do not partake in any Form of Space or Time, which define the parameters of Dimensions. Simply put; Space-Time cannot confine a ≥1-A Space.
Anos is capable of casting Rivide within the Silver Sea, a Spell used to reverse time.
- Volume 11, Chapter 25
- Volume 13, Chapter 50
Yzak's crystals are capable of freezing Time within the Silver Sea.
- Volume 13, Chapter 50
Aeges' spear is capable of warping Space and distorting the Space-Time Continuum of the Sixth Elenesia, within one of the Deepest Layers of the Silver Sea.
- Volume 14, Chapter 34
- Volume 14, Chapter 34
- Volume 14, Chapter 35
- Volume 14, Chapter 35
So, to simplify, besides the Statements not pointing to a High 1-A Silver Sea, the World is confined by both Space as well as Time, and this quality is consistently reaffirmed throughout the Light Novel, as such, it cannot be ≥1-A.
Part Four: Nonduality
And so, we have reached the last section of this Post and the most famous of Anos' Scaling in the consensus. That is, Nonduality Type 3. Though often mistaken as the culprit Anos' High 1-A, that much has already been addressed in the Silver Sea, and thus it is necessary to take a deeper look into his Plurality. Maou Gakuin's Nonduality can be further subdivided into three. Those are; that of Order, that of Arcana, and that of the Unfit.
Let's begin with Order, as it is the most fundamental of these, and that which the others revolve around. As already discusses in Part One, Order as a whole forms one unified Nature, and that much is revealed in Volume 10.
- Volume 10, Chapter 15
Orders are intertwined with each other. That is to say, there can be no thing without its polar opposite.
- Volume 9, Chapter 28
Despite this, opposing Orders cannot exist at the same time
- Volume 9, Chapter 38
So, Order as a unified entity, as well as the Supreme God which embodies it, are Nondual (Type 2), and that much is obvious. Moving on, it is important to address the Goddess of Absurdity, Arcana, as well as the Unfit. Arcana's Order is that of Absurdity, or contradiction, and with it she's capable of actualizing such contradictions.
- Volume 10, Chapter 38
As for the Unfit, these are entities completely disconnected from Order. Particularly notable here is Anos, an entity described by Dilfred as being the opposition to the World's Order.
- Volume 10, Chapter 2
Thus, what the argument comes down to is the Goddess of Absurdity, who governs contradiction, as well as Anos, who exists completely dethatched from Order, have Nonduality Type 3. Yet again, to understand the issue with this, and Anos' Plurality is particular, it is important to define Plurality as a whole.
Plurality, in the most simple of terms can be thought of as Nonduality to Nonduality. That is to say, whereas one with Nonduality occupies a third state of logic, in that they're neither "X" nor "not X" where X is any given attribute, Plurality can be defined as neither Duality nor Nonduality. It, as such, occupies a fifth logical state, where the first four are "X", "not X", "both X and not X", "neither X nor not X".
With this definition established, it becomes easy to view the issue regarding Anos moving forth; in that, he is the polar opposite of Order. Defining Order as Nondual, and Anos as its opposite, one has not accomplished to achieve a fifth logical state, but rather fit Anos into the very distinction that Plurality is beyond. That is to say, Anos is not beyond the distinction of Duality and Nonduality, but rather his Chaos fits into the distinction between those two. Particularly, Anos' Chaos seems to occupy a fourth logical state in this instance, in that, whereas Order contains both aspects of a Duality, Chaos contains neither, and as such, Dilfred refers to Chaos as that which exists rather than simply a lack of Order.
To put everything into perspective. Individual Orders such as Creation and Destruction, as well as Abortion and Birth, occupy two logical states of "X" and "not X", whereas Order as a unified entity holds both, it is as such "both X and not X". Anos' Chaos, being the opposite of Order and absence of it, is likewise, "neither X nor not X". As for Arcana, like Order, she is capable of actualizing both states of Dual System, and as such occupies both. As such, the Order of Absurdity, as well as she who embodies it, have Nonduality Type 2, in the same sense that Order as a unified entity does.
Going further, the typical argument for Nonduality being 1-A may be posited as something like "to simultaneously both assert and deny any given attribute as an aspect of oneself, one would need to be ontologically superior to said attribute". So, effectively, if one occupies both aspects of the Duality of, say, "Space" and "not Space", they would be qualitatively superior to it, and thus 1-A, as a result.
So, what's wrong with this view of it? Well, any Tier ≥1-A still participates in said ontological distinction. Particularly for this example, a 1-A Character would fall into the latter of these, being Aspatial in Nature. Effectively, this means that the lack of distinction between two logical states is not one-in-the-same with ontological superiority over it. Simply put; these things have nothing to do with each other, and as such, Nonduality does not entail 1-A Tiering.
So, the point is ultimately that, these arguments are weak, and not only do they not supplement anything remotely 1-A, but one such view of the Cosmology blatantly comes in contrast with its instinct ontology
