Maou Gakuin Discussion Thread

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Kostoria was referring to Venuzdonoa, not the Sun of Doom. The whole point of Venuz is to seal/limit the order of destruction. Sun of Doom cant be the seal since it would be otherwise sealing itself.

Sun of Doom is the divine order from which the order of destruction comes from to begin with.

Anos turned Sun of Doom into Venuzdonoa, so yeah. Venuzdonoa = Sun of Doom.

Not to mention, where did you think Aberneyu's power came from when venuzdonoa didnt exist?

Venuzdonoa cant be superior than Aberneyu's ability since venuz's ability comes from her.

 

[Delta333]

btw it's kinda funny when the scan for Anos being stronger than Venuz on his profile comes from the statement implied that he is stronger than the sun of destruction

 

[imZer0Null]

Kostoria was referring to Venuzdonoa, not the Sun of Doom. The whole point of Venuz is to seal/limit the order of destruction. Sun of Doom cant be the seal since it would be otherwise sealing itself.

Sun of Doom is the divine order from which the order of destruction comes from to begin with.

Anos turned Sun of Doom into Venuzdonoa, so yeah. Venuzdonoa = Sun of Doom.

Not to mention, where did you think Aberneyu's power came from when venuzdonoa didnt exist?

That's completely backwards.

There was a huge debate about this, and nothing indicates the Sun of Destruction = Order of Destruction. The Sun of Destruction is just a divine order 'created' from the order of destruction. Taking away the divine order from the world disrupts the order it represents, which is why Anos used Sargeldonave in Venuzdonoa's construction.

Yes, the Sun of Destruction can't seal itself, which is why saying Sargeldonave = Venuzdonoa is completely incorrect.

Also, stop ignoring other points of the argument.
Sargeldonave simply can't have all of Venuzdonoa's abilities if it was never stated to destroy reason, the thing Venuzdonoa does most to gain certain abilities.

 

[Delta333]

tbh I can even prove that Venuz is weaker than the sun but anyways we have quote directly said that Venuz is Aberneyu’s power

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I said Sun of Doom = Venuzdonoa. They are both things that emanates the order of destruction.

Sun of Doom would be like a shotgun, while Venuzdonoa a sniper, with both using the same bullets and with the same power once you pull the trigger. In the end, its the same bullet, the difference is the precision.

So, where did you think Aberneyu's power came from when Venuz didnt exist?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Even Anos's profile kind of acknowledges this

Law Manipulation & Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3. Unaffected by Aberneyu's Sun of Destruction <Sargeldonave>, a divine order that utilizes the Order of Destruction)

 

[imZer0Null]

I said Sun of Doom = Venuzdonoa. They are both things that emanates the order of destruction.

Sun of Doom would be like a shotgun, while Venuzdonoa a sniper, with both using the same bullets and with the same power once you pull the trigger. In the end, its the same bullet, the difference is the precision.

So, where did you think Aberneyu's power came from when Venuz didnt exist?

Using the same thing as a power source doesn't mean they should have the same abilities.

If I use your analogy, it proves what I'm trying to say. You can't say shotgun = sniper rifle just because they both shoot bullets. You can say they're both guns, but saying capabilities of shotgun = capabilities of sniper rifle is incorrect.

I already said that Sargeldonave should have law & concept manip combined with a few negations, but giving it causality manip and nonexistence erasure without feats or statements would be incorrect.

Also, Aberneyu's power, Sargeldonave, comes from the order of destruction.
Venuzdonoa's power comes from somewhere else and uses Sargeldonave as a seal.
Are you trying to say that a suppressor = a sniper rifle, because the sniper rifle uses a suppressor?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Also, Aberneyu's power, Sargeldonave, comes from the order of destruction.

Eh? Aberneyu uses the Sun of Doom to emanate the order of destruction, not the opposite

Venuzdonoa's power comes from somewhere else and uses Sargeldonave as a seal.

Anos turned Sun of Doom into Venuzdonoa, how can it be from somewhere else, if not from Sun of Doom itself? Sun of Doom also cant be the seal since it doesnt exist anymore, it was turned into venuzdonoa. The only way to access the Sun of Doom is by turning Venuzdonoa into its original form, the Sun of Doom (which is what Nousgalia did)

 

[InfiniteCosmology]

Ye

Using the same thing as a power source doesn't mean they should have the same abilities.

I already said that Sargeldonave should have law & concept manip combined with a few negations, but giving it causality manip and nonexistence erasure without feats or statements would just be incorrect.

I agree on this. Venuzdonoa is actually a weapon that utilizes the order of destruction and it reaches its true value in Anos's hands and can be assumed as a much more mod. version of Aberneyu's Sun of Doom that burns everything in its sight.

But still Aberneyu should qualify for atleast 2C.
Cuz Aberneyu=Delzogade Castle + Sun Of doom+ passive death abilities(she was the embodiment of death and destruction, her own destruction by Anos allowed resurrection spells like <Ingall>, to work freely).

 

[imZer0Null]

Eh? Aberneyu uses the Sun of Doom to emanate the order of destruction, not the opposite

Anos turned Sun of Doom into Venuzdonoa, how can it be from somewhere else, if not from Sun of Doom itself? Sun of Doom also cant be the seal since it doesnt exist anymore, it was turned into venuzdonoa. The only way to access the Sun of Doom is by turning Venuzdonoa into its original form, the Sun of Doom (which is what Nousgalia did)

You're trying to tell me that this divine order, which for all intents and purposes is an ability, existed before the laws and concepts that it utilises? Something that causes destruction existed before the concept of destruction?

You're also ignoring Kostoria's statement. She directly stared at Venuzdonoa's abyss and discovered that the Sun of Destruction is only used as a seal on Venuzdonoa.
I know Anos used Sargeldonave in Venuzdonoa's construction, but that doesn't mean Venuzdonoa = Sargeldonave.

Also, again, stop ignoring other points in the debate:

You should also provide proof that Sargeldonave can actually destroy reason, since again, most of Venuzdonoa's abilities are gained from its power to destroy reason.

 

[imZer0Null]

I believe the Sun of Destruction <Sargeldonave> should at least be rated as Low 2-C.
It should naturally have law and concept manip, and since it could kill Avos, aka rip-off Anos, it should also negate those immortalities and regen.

Saying it should have causality manip and nonexistence erasure without feats or statements would be incorrect. Venuzdonoa was only able to do this because it could destroy reason, something which Sargeldonave still hasn't been proved capable of.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

You're trying to tell me that this divine order, which for all intents and purposes is an ability, existed before the laws and concepts that it utilises? Something that causes destruction existed before the concept of destruction?

When did I say that? I only said that Sun of Doom uses the order of destruction, just like Venuzdonoa does. And since venuzdonoa didnt exist back then, the order of destruction had to be emanated from the Sun of Doom (since Venuz didnt exist). Thats it.

ou're also ignoring Kostoria's statement. She directly stared at Venuzdonoa's abyss and discovered that the Sun of Destruction is only used as a seal on Venuzdonoa.

When did she refer to the Sun of Doom specifically? Then again, that goes back to my first point, where Venuz didnt exist back then and Aberneyu used the Sun of Doom to emanate the Order, so how would it be a seal?

You should also provide proof that Sargeldonave can actually destroy reason, since again, most of Venuzdonoa's abilities are gained from its power to destroy reason.

It is the same order. It is even stated to destroy everything and was turned into Venuz. It has all implications to be able to do the same as Venuz

The black sun of Sargeeldnave, the Sun of Doom, which erases everything and destroys everything.

 

[imZer0Null]

When did I say that? I only said that Sun of Doom uses the order of destruction, just like Venuzdonoa does. And since venuzdonoa didnt exist back then, the order of destruction had to be emanated from the Sun of Doom (since Venuz didnt exist). Thats it.

Sorry. I misunderstood then.

It is the same order. It is even stated to destroy everything...it has all implications to be able to do the same as Venuz

This is wrong. It's weaker in deeper layers and it was never stated to be capable of destroying reason.

You simply can't say that the Sun of Destruction = Venuzdonoa just because both use the Order of Destruction, when they both were created for very different purposes and have completely different explanations on how their power works.
Refer to this:

If I use your analogy, it proves what I'm trying to say. You can't say shotgun = sniper rifle just because they both shoot bullets. You can say they're both guns, but saying capabilities of shotgun = capabilities of sniper rifle is incorrect.

 

[AncientKing95]

Kostoria was talking about the construction of the formula for Venuzdonoa, not Venuzdonoa itself. The construction of the formula utilizes Anos' magic power instead of Aberneyu's, but Venuzdonoa itself is Aberneyu's <Surge El Donave> in another form.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

This is wrong. It's weaker in deeper layers and it was never stated to be capable of destroying reason.

I mean, if it can destroy everything, then "reason" would be included

You simply can't say that the Sun of Destruction = Venuzdonoa just because both use the Order of Destruction, when they both were created for very different purposes and have completely different explanations on how their power works.

Last time I checked, Venuzdonoa was only created to localize the Order into what Anos decides to specifically destroy. While Sun of Doom does not have that luxury and instead affects the Militia World indiscriminately. Dont think there was anything more than that, so they should still be relatively the same.

If I use your analogy, it proves what I'm trying to say. You can't say shotgun = sniper rifle just because they both shoot bullets. You can say they're both guns, but saying capabilities of shotgun = capabilities of sniper rifle is incorrect.

I did say to assume that they were shooting the exact same bullets with the same potency, you get the point.

 

[imZer0Null]

scan

Kostoria was talking about the construction of the formula for Venuzdonoa, not Venuzdonoa itself. The construction of the formula utilizes Anos' magic power instead of Aberneyu's, but Venuzdonoa itself is Aberneyu's <Surge El Donave> in another form.

I don't see how you came to that conclusion, but it honestly just proves my point.

 

[imZer0Null]

I mean, if it can destroy everything, then "reason" would be included

That's just an assumption, and it was already proven that it can't destroy everything.

Last time I checked, Venuzdonoa was only created to localize the Order into what Anos decides to specifically destroy. While Sun of Doom does not have that luxury and instead affects the Militia World indiscriminately. Dont think there was anything more than that, so they should still be relatively the same.

I did say to assume that they were shooting the exact same bullets with the same potency, you get the point.

Just because two completely different guns shoot the exact same bullets with the same potency still doesn't mean they have the exact same capabilities.

I believe the Sun of Destruction <Sargeldonave> should at least be rated as Low 2-C.
It should naturally have law and concept manip, and since it could kill Avos, aka rip-off Anos, it should also negate those immortalities and regen.

Saying it should have causality manip and nonexistence erasure without feats or statements would be incorrect. Venuzdonoa was only able to do this because it could destroy reason, something which Sargeldonave still hasn't been proved capable of.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

That's just an assumption, and it was already proven that it can't destroy everything.

When?

Just because two completely different guns shoot the exact same bullets with the same potency still doesn't mean they have the exact same capabilities.

So what more is there to differentiate? Aside from range and precision

 

[AncientKing95]

I don't see how you came to that conclusion, but it honestly just proves my point.

Not really. As I said, Venuzdonoa itself is just <Surge El Donave> in another form. Not that <Surge El Donave> aka the Order of Destruction is a seal for Venuzdonoa. A formula that creates something and the final product created from that formula aren't the same thing. Kostoria was talking about the formula used to construct Venuzdonoa, not Venuzdonoa itself.

All Venuzdonoa has exhibited is the Order of Destruction (perhaps to a greater extent than <Surge El Donave>), a hax to destroy even things that shouldn't be destroyed. Everything it has done lines up with it's Order of Destruction. It hasn't done anything special beyond that, which would be implied if the Order of Destruction was merely a seal.

 

[Lormac_CC]

I originally Said this in my first CRt. I believe that the reason why Venuzdonoa can function in a deeper layer is because it doesn't follow the order and logic of things. The fact that it can function in a deep layer is already prove. As for the rating 2-C, possibly 2-B is fine.

 

[imZer0Null]

When?

It was weaker in deeper layers while Venuzdonoa wasn't.
You're claiming it can destroy reason, so all you have to do is provide proof that it can.
Venuzdonoa has clear statements saying it can destroy reason, reason is meaningless in front of it, etc. You can't assume that the Sun of Destruction would also be able to destroy reason when it's functionally different from Venuzdonoa and has no supporting feats or statements.

So what more is there to differentiate? Aside from range and precision

Range and precision is important. A shotgun wouldn't be able to kill a target 200 m away, while a sniper rifle definitely can.
Venuzdonoa, which focuses destruction, is capable of destroying something as abstract as reason. Saying the Sun of Destruction must also be capable of destroying reason, even though it can't focus it's destruction, just because Venuzdonoa can would be incorrect.
It's certainly a possibility, but since it doesn't have any feats or statements, even tho it indiscriminately destroys stuff, you can't just assume that.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

But it's the same order. Why would the order suddenly gain an extra ability just because it moved into a weapon?

And having different range/precision doesnt change the bullet itself in this case, i.e the order.

 

[AncientKing95]

It was weaker in deeper layers while Venuzdonoa wasn't.
You're claiming it can destroy reason, so all you have to do is provide proof that it can.
Venuzdonoa has clear statements saying it can destroy reason, reason is meaningless in front of it, etc. You can't assume that the Sun of Destruction would also be able to destroy reason when it's functionally different from Venuzdonoa and has no supporting feats or statements.


Range and precision is important. A shotgun wouldn't be able to kill a target 200 m away, while a sniper rifle definitely can.
Venuzdonoa, which focuses destruction, is capable of destroying something as abstract as reason. Saying the Sun of Destruction must also be capable of destroying reason just because Venuzdonoa can would be incorrect, since we know it can't focus its destruction like Venuzdonoa.
It's certainly a possibility, but since it doesn't have any feats or statements, even tho it indiscriminately destroys stuff, you can't just assume that.

<Surge El Donave> doesn't just indiscriminately destroy stuff. That was proven when it destroyed Avos alone, and nobody else. More proof of this is when Sasha controlled it to just destroy the God's Army.

 

[Delta333]

I will not be surprised if one day people argue that perry the platypus and agent P are different

 

[imZer0Null]

But it's the same order. Why would the order suddenly gain an extra ability just because it moved into a weapon?

If I use your analogy, it proves what I'm trying to say. You can't say shotgun = sniper rifle just because they both shoot bullets. You can say they're both guns, but saying capabilities of shotgun = capabilities of sniper rifle is incorrect.

Range and precision is important. A shotgun wouldn't be able to kill a target 200 m away, while a sniper rifle definitely can.

You're claiming it can destroy reason, so all you have to do is provide proof that it can.
Venuzdonoa has clear statements saying it can destroy reason, reason is meaningless in front of it, etc. You can't assume that the Sun of Destruction would also be able to destroy reason when it's functionally different from Venuzdonoa and has no supporting feats or statements.

If destroying reason was considered 'normal' in MG, then maybe I could've accepted it, but since it isn't, you can't just assume that the Sun of Destruction can also destroy reason.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Yeah, but you see, its emanating the same order at the end of the day. If Sun of Doom truly cant destroy reason, then where does reason destruction comes from, if they both uses the same order to attack?

Also my edit above

 

[InfiniteCosmology]

I will not be surprised if one day people argue that perry the platypus and agent P are different

Really?

 

[imZer0Null]

Yeah, but you see, its emanating the same order at the end of the day. If Sun of Doom truly cant destroy reason, then where does reason destruction comes from, if they both uses the same order to attack?

Also my edit above

But it's the same order. Why would the order suddenly gain an extra ability just because it moved into a weapon?

And having different range/precision doesnt change the bullet itself in this case, i.e the order.

Yes, the 'bullet' is the same, so you could argue that both have the same destructive capacity, tho we know this is incorrect since the Sun of Destruction is weaker in deeper layers, but merely having the same destructive capacity doesn't mean you can always destroy the same things.
This is why range and precision is important. Reason is something abstract, and saying just because Venuzdonoa can destroy reason, when it has the 'range and precision' to destroy said abstraction, the Sun of Destruction must also be capable of destroying reason, when it completely lacks those two things, would be incorrect.
I've already said it's certainly a possibility, but you really can't assume the Sun of Destruction can also destroy reason, when it doesn't have any feats or statements supporting that assumption AND destroying reason isn't a commonplace thing in the verse.

 

[InfiniteCosmology]

Are we forgetting that the sun of destruction burns everything on sight only for 6 months?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Yes, the 'bullet' is the same, so you could argue that both have the same destructive capacity, tho we know this is incorrect since the Sun of Destruction is weaker in deeper layers, but merely having the same destructive capacity doesn't mean you can always destroy the same things.
This is why range and precision is important. Reason is something abstract, and saying just because Venuzdonoa can destroy reason, when it has the 'range and precision' to destroy said abstraction, the Sun of Destruction must also be capable of destroying reason, when it completely lacks those two things, would be incorrect.
I've already said it's certainly a possibility, but you really can't assume the Sun of Destruction can also destroy reason, when it doesn't have any feats or statements supporting that assumption AND destroying reason isn't a commonplace thing in the verse.

Ok, so where does reason destruction comes from?

 

[InfiniteCosmology]

Ok, so where does reason destruction comes from?

Construction formula.

 

[imZer0Null]

Ok, so where does reason destruction comes from?

Idk? Why does that even matter when both things are functionally different?
Can a normal car's engine and a racing car's engine produce the same power just because they use the same fuel? No, because while both engines use the same fuel, they are functionally different.

 

[InfiniteCosmology]

Idk? Why does that even matter when both things are functionally different?
Can a normal car's engine and a racing car's engine produce the same power just because they use the same fuel? No, because while both engines use the same fuel, they are functionally different.

That's a good analogy.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Idk? Why does that even matter when both things are functionally different?
Can a normal car's engine and a racing car's engine produce the same power just because they use the same fuel? No, because while both engines use the same fuel, they are functionally different.

I mean

You say that Sun of Doom and Venuzdonoa both uses the Order of Destruction, but with one of them having reason destruction while the other not (despite both using the same order)

So, where does it come from, if not from the order?

 

[imZer0Null]

Sorry, but I've gtg, so I can't debate this anymore.

This is very simply. Since knowledgeable people would know that the Sun of Destruction and Venuzdonoa aren't the same exact thing, and they just use the same order, the burden of proof falls on the people claiming that the Sun of Destruction can destroy the same stuff Venuzdonoa can.
They're both clearly functionally different, so saying because Venuzdonoa is capable, the Sun of Destruction must also be capable, isn't proof of anything.

 

[InfiniteCosmology]

I believe:-
Venuzdonoa=Anos's own construction formula+Divine order of destruction
I honestly would like to meet Shu now.

 

[InfiniteCosmology]

Sorry, but I've gtg, so I can't debate this anymore.

This is very simply. Since knowledgeable people would know that the Sun of Destruction and Venuzdonoa aren't the same exact thing, and they just use the same order, the burden of proof falls on the people claiming that the Sun of Destruction can destroy the same stuff Venuzdonoa can.
They're both clearly functionally different, so saying because Venuzdonoa is capable, the Sun of Destruction must also be capable, isn't proof of anything.

gtg?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

If we assume what you say is true, that brings several more issues into the table:

1. Half of the reason why Anos is 2-B is gone, since the feat was against Sun of Doom, not venuzdonoa. And apparently they arent of the same potency as you say, so it would only be a Low 2-C feat.
2. However, if they DO have the same potency, then Sun of Doom is 2-B, not Low 2-C as you previously claimed
3. Assuming the 1. is correct, then that leaves Anos's feats against Venuzdonoa only by using his purple eyes, which is a feat for his eyes, not himself (and it doesnt scale ap-wise since it would be powernull)

 

[AncientKing95]

Why is Anos considered to be implied stronger than Venuzdonoa on his profile due to being unaffected by <Surge El Donave>, when literally everyone (but Avos, since it only targetted her in the first place) was unaffected?

 

[Delta333]

Why is Anos considered to be implied stronger than Venuzdonoa on his profile due to being unaffected by <Surge El Donave>, when literally everyone (but Avos, since it only targetted her in the first place) was unaffected?

I have talked about this problem before,his resistance to CM type 3 is wrong too