Major League of Legends revisions.

[ThePerpetual]

So, as you might or might not remember, many of the League of Legends pages are sort of in disarray at the moment, with the current speeds of the lower-tiers in particular having been obsolete and much disputed for quite some time now. Additionally, several facets of the lore have been tweaked, messed with, and rewritten since I tried my hand at the very first League profile on the site (my main Swain) quite a long time ago.

What this means, basically, is that I'm going to need to spearhead a second round of verse-wide revisions.

Let me lay out the basic plan for you all as of now:

Top-tiers (the god-tiers minus Aurelion Sol and Dark Star Thresh): Unfortunately, the lore heavily implying that Brand's "burning the world" and Lissandra's "Freezing the world" are both now kaputt. This means that, while we can't deny the possibility of it being in a very short timeframe, we can no longer confirm it, either.

Swain, Jarvan IV, Brand, and Lissandra maintain their statuses as top dogs in the verse: thus, a "likely higher" clause is warranted: but they'll have to be knocked down to Country level (where the likes of Anivia and ashe currently reside). The most that could be done for them is "Possibly Multi-Continent level", if we were to be generous.

Similarly, the lore that established that Riven (the nice girl currently in my avi) likely fought on-par with Varus in the past is gone now. That scaling will be removed accordingly.

As far as the general rest of the verse, there's a few new feats they get that would modify their existing stats:

Death by Gare would bump most of League (the general lower-tiers) to Small Town level+ in AP/Dura and Mach ~1580 in combat/reaction speed, Skaarl's Running would increase the general movement speed of champions to Mach ~14.7, and this calc by Lina from long ago (which preferably would be checked by another calc group member or two) would improve the travel speed of the verses "speedsters" (characters notably swifter in continuous movement than the rest as part of their lore/powers/etc., such as Bard) to Mach ~62.5, or High Hypersonic+.

To review:

My main (I cri ;-, the best League waifu (I cri some more ;-, and a few other guys: nerfed.

A whole lot of other people: Generally buffed, and their faulty speed entry dilemma finally taken care of.

These are fairly major revisions, as they effect almost all of a 125+ character verse, so I'd like to see what everyone else has to say.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

I personally agreed with this content revision here.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

This revision makes sense, I can support of this as well.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

As much as I don't want the downgrades to happen, I agree that they have to...6-B, likely higher should suffice

Gotta fix up Baron's page too, never got around to it...

Also, I probably should've brought this up earlier but in Sol's lore it's said that the Aspects would destroy a star should Sol try to resist them.

"Outraged, he fought these controlling impulses and attempted to break his bonds by force, only to discover that for each attack against his newfound masters, one of his stars vanished forever from the firmament."

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

You did mention them having to be revised in chat and i can take your word that they need to be revised. So i agree and support this.

 

[ThePerpetual]

@Weekly Wait, what now? Are we referring to like, the Aspects of Targon? Leona, Taric, Diana, Pantheon...?

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

I'd go with this revision

 

[Lina_Shields]

Well, it is about time that the profiles here need to be revised.

Also, Death By Garen may have to be checked, as it would yield even further upgrades for the LoL verse.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Perp Yes we are, that line is taken directly from Sol's lore.

 

[ThePerpetual]

@Lina In what way? Are you simply saying it needs another calc checker or two, or that there's something I missed that would cause it to yield greater results...?

 

[ThePerpetual]

@Weekly ...so what do you recommend? Are we talking Star level aspects of Targon? Or is this too indirect, outliery, vague, etc.?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Well it doesn't exactly say HOW they do it, just that they do, and, as manly as it would be, I cant really see Pantheon jumping into space to punch a star. Perhaps 4-C via hax?

 

[ThePerpetual]

May... be? It seems too vague to really quantify for now, more along the likes of them possessing this power as a collective (the Aspects as a whole), rathter than individually.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

So maybe just a possibly higher (Stated that they have destroyed stars to control Aurelion Sol, though how they do this is currently unknown)?

 

[ThePerpetual]

Something along along those lines, yeah.

 

[Lina_Shields]

@ThePerp: I think the scene could yield greater results from what I remember, but I will have to check.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

We can add 'Possibly Star level' as a maybe for the Targons, though the key issue is determining whether each of them are capable of doing that, rather than by combining their powers as a faction, if we take the statement at face value.

Aside from that I think we may need another form for Dark Star Varus who seems to shoot stars from his bow based on his illustration. He might scale to Thresh.

And can we use LoL comic trailers for some feats as well, as long as it was officially published by Riot? There's the Dunkmaster Darius trailer that shows him stopping a meteor with his hand (which was revealed to be a basketball) and tanking the explosion. Well it was probably meant for comic relief so might not be usable, though it's interesting to note.

 

[ThePerpetual]

@Heinkel Astrea Hehe, I remember that. I don't think it'd yield anything super special in the way of upgrades, though.

I do remember Poppy lifting a house-sized monster, though, that's a pretty decent feat that ought to scale to most any warrior-type.

Dark Star Varus probably does need his own tab, yeah, though I don't think we can assume he scales to Thresh unless there's overarching lore connecting the Dark Star characters.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Dark Star Varus probably does need his own tab, yeah, though I don't think we can assume he scales to Thresh unless there's overarching lore connecting the Dark Star characters.

I've been meaning to add him too, he'd probably be like Low 4-C, maybe even 4-B to 4-A...

Also the other Super Galaxy skins

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Well there was a statement that the two consumed the Void together, for whatever it is worth. It's an in-game statement though.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

So should these be applied or...?

 

[Gemmysaur]

Totally irrelevant to the discussion, but its so nice, I decided to post it here anyway. Sorry.

if lissandra sold her body, would she be a frostitute?´╗┐ - lilypichu

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Death by Garen is a good buff strength wise but no one has yet to react it ^^; It's not really something we can use for speed, we're better off using a lightning feat from Xerath but then against those are pretty fast too.

All aside, agreeing with the other buffs aside from multi continental Swain. Even with Anivia's likes being around, the power gap couldn't be that big.

Also what about the Lux's laser being refuted? The marker laser is SoL and is how you dodge it in game, and in cutscenes no one has dodged it. Only people who can dodge it are those who see the light 'already' hitting them.

And kek @Gemmysaur

Also, on another note... Have we shared IGNs in League yet? To anyone who plays it?

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

I think Katarina already dodged Garen's orbital strike to avoid a fatal blow, if just barely.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

https://youtu.be/3fUoBBT4iqI?t=33 It struck the ground in front of her actually. Like literally the space between them. Katarina nor Garen weren't able to move at all on that timespan. I even slowed it down to x0.25 speed.

Jesus Garen. How bad are you? How could you actually miss your ulti? GG. Uninstall plz.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Watch your word. You are talking to a Diamond Garen main here (in Korean server). Show some more respect.




I agree though that his ulti is terrible. : p

But that Garen was obviously bronze level, so obviously not representative of his true skill

On the other hand, I have multiple field experience that Katarina dodges Garen's ulti after it is fired (like ******* seriously, totally not joking). And everyone else and their mother do that too every 255 seconds

He's the most broken champ evah... in the wrong direction


Anyway so, we are not using Garen's ult for reaction speed then? What else are we going to use?

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Pffft. Fight me and my Pantheon mate.

Clearly for sure.

Not quite sure about that. In all my experience playing league though typically you have to dodge before he could finish the casting animation in order to be safe from it. Even Sivir Shields have to be done that way. It's near instant if not instant and typically once it's heading for you you're done for.

Pffft, have you ever seen Attack Damage Crit Garen? Too good. Also stacking warmog's on him with visage is beautiful.

 

[Lina_Shields]

@Heinkel: It seems that you have much knowledge in regards to LoL and its characters in general. Assuming that you have read ThePerpetual's suggestions for their tiering, are there anything else that you can suggest?

Also, are there any wide-scale destruction feats that the Bronze level characters do/are shown within the series (other than Garen's Demacian Justice)?

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

@Lina

Bronze leve is a multiplayer tiering in League of Legends. We're just joking that the Garen sucks at League because his Ult is an instant homing attack on any enemy that's like a flash of light, and it is completely impossible to miss if they're close enough.

That said has soul haxx ever been discussed with the ones from Shadowmore Isle? Like Hec and the others? Then again tiering isn't based on haxx.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@COB Shodowmore? You mean the Shadow Isles? Yeah most of the characters from there have soul hax listed on their profiles.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

@ COB

I have some videos for the 'bugs' that are plaguing Garen's ult and also his Judgment (E is shorter ranged than his AA). Even just entering a bush/go outside Fog of War right after the ult is fired is going to dodge the ult altogether.

This 'Garen ult misses Olaf after it fires' vid is a good example: (you can clearly see that Garen's sword had contacted the ground solidly for several frames before Olaf flashes beyond the FoG, you also see the ult's gold 'spark' effect)


Ùíñ Û▓îý×ä Û░ÇÙáî ÛÂüÙ▓äÛÀ© Û░ÇÙáîÛÂü ??? ÙïêýùäÙºêÙïñ!


I've played Garen thousands of times for five seasons (well, three after his first remake) so I remember each of those times that bushes had saved my kills quite vividly... oh yes.

I will respecfully point out that I would be Master by now if everyone and their mother did not have MHS reactions to trivially sidestep Garen ults (after it's fired)!


And clearly the bush is not on Garen's side, the Bush Warrior meme is an old joke. : P


On a more serious note, I think there's almost no latency in any of those vids because Korea's a small country without much ping spikes (unlike NA where ping can vary widely from state to state). What you see in the vid is what the server itself sees.


Btw these are for your Crit Garen. Have fun with them in your free time. : P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcdUoLZ2Zow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJl5oQh3hjc


@Lina Shields

It's 5 am here right now so I will read through the suggestions more thoroughly tomorrow and add any comments I may contribute as appropriate.

But for a few feats, this is the Dunkmaster comic trailer showing Darius 'tanking' a basketball meteor and managing to grab onto it. (maybe we can compare human speed to catch basketballs with hands vs Darius's reaction speed to catch a hypersonic meteor)


Dunkmaster Darius


It's at around 0:20 of the video. Well it's for comic effect so I can't really pass judgment whether we can use this. It was published by Riot though.

We do have some supernatural lightning feats in LoL from characters like Kennen, Volibear, Viktor, etc that some characters with AoE damage negation effects are shown to 'dodge' a direct impact with, multiple times as those ults last a few seconds and produce several lightning bolts for their duration. Examples would be champions like Jax when he is using Counter-Strike, Fiora with her Riposte, etc.

Those two may qualify as omni-directional 'lightning dodgers', however those two are also some of the strongest duelists in the entire League (even by gameplay) so they may not be scalable to everyone.

I'll see what else I can find.


Edit: I edited the post a few times after I first posted it to add additional details

Edit 2: And the Garen thingy being 'bug' is just my conjecture. It may in fact be a legit gameplay feature intended by Riot to give the skill a counter; it's been for several years now without being fixed.

So anyway if we assume that some LoL champions being able to react to the ult is legit, they'll scale to the speed of the ult and other champs will also scale to those champs in turn. This I think is the first thing we need to decide upon.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Ooh nice, a veteran!

But that's gameplay mechanics, the go to the bush and be untouchable I mean. It's not as if there's no reason for them to stop in cutscene wise. Or do you mean something else?

The way I see it the blade wasn't even falling from the sky yet though? So it doesn't really count if one can escape the channel time when the blade hasn't fallen from the sky yet. Because if it was a showcase of dodging the attack then the blade should've fallen anyway. There are certain limits that Gameplay Mechanics invoke on feats themselves. At least it has to have that visual imagery of the blade falling if it really needs to count I mean.

Oh and meteor catching Darius is amazing but it might need to be a separate profile or be noted as Dunkmaster. Just to take note.

Edit - Those counters would be a nice showcase of parries, although we can't use their animation frames probably to get full on scaling I suppose. Or maybe we can. Maybe someone do a calc on those?

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Shrugs

I am not a good profile maker so I have ever done only breaking down feats, others usually decided if they were applicable or not for the given character. I dont know which feat would be applicable to which version, so I guess I will just follow what you say on that

With regard to the ult vid, what I saw was that Garens own sword definitely hit the ground for several frames before the flash, and there was the telltale golden glow on Garen's arms that indicates the ult was deployed but somehow aborted. It could have changed its trajectory off-map due to the target's sudden disappearance beyond FoG, or any other possibilities. What i think matters however is the keyword 'react'.

Other than that I have no other analysis to make. But otherwise it's a simple case of can LoL champs react to Garen ult or not, etc.

It should still work fine for AP, though, and also for Garen's own combat speed to which others would still scale either way.

I will get back to this again tomorrow

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Yeah you should sleep. 5 am is not a good time to debate.

And no worries. Some people can't make profiles but specialize on something else.

True but in the end it's far more believable to have concrete feats of something as big of a buff as that instead of strictly relying on what rarely happens in game. If the falling sword was falling slower and not instant in game I would've conceded. Or if in the cutscene it shows Katrina dodging I would've said the same. And yeah AP wise it still works.

 

[Gemmysaur]

Maybe, the sword is not as undodgeable as we think. What if what actually damages the champions in game is the small aoe it has?

 

[ThePerpetual]

Oh... this again.

Literally every one has undodgeable attacks in the form of their autoattacks, using the argument of "no one can dodge so-and-so in game" is irrelevant. We see that Garen pulls the ulti off, during which time the sword begins falling, the Katarina looks up. We see that, when it lands, Katarina is several steps away from the point of impact, even though she couldn't have known where it was going to fall until it came into her field of vision, which wouldn't have been until it was very close because the object is point-down, and from that perspective even half-meter-wide objects can appear as specks at close ranges. Within that time, Kat had to perceive, react to, and jump away from in response to this thing closing in on her position, and stop herself, else she would still have backwards momentum, and would have been flying backwards when we see the sword impact. It's a solid reaction feat.

On top of this, several attacks that characters can react to in-game move at similar speeds to Garen's Demacian Justice, and Kennen and Volibear use actual natural lightning generated by storms to attack people at point blank range (which can also be evaded), so even gameplay makes this consistent.

 

[Gemmysaur]

So, MHS~MHS+ Champions?

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Well here are some comments I may add for a few champs who will have higher speed than the LoL baseline. Take note though that these are gameplay feats so far, though they do not necessarily contradict with their Lore feats.


Fiora/Fizz - MHS+ reactions

They can dodge all lightning from omni-directions for the duration of their Riposte/Trickster, after the lightning AoE is fired and they are fully engulfed in it.


Jax - Likely Lightspeed reactions

Jax can dodge Viktor's Siphoning Strike (on-hit AA) completely with his Counter-Srike, after the lasers are fired, from omni-direction. 100 Vicktors could hit him with Siphoning Strike from every direction and Jax will dodge/parry all of them. He also mitigates damages from Viktor's Q laser and Lux's ult even while standing still, indicating that he can react.

Unlike Jax, Fiora/Fizz can only do the same before the lasers are fired (you'll know what I mean if you have played those champs). They have to anticipate the laser/light being fired at them.


Lorewise Jax is the strongest champion ever to enter the League (barring celestials like Sol and DS Thresh/Varus, who outside the League have far more power). He was given a lamppost instead of a real weapon directly in order to nerf him against all other champs far below his power level, and make it a fair fight. Even then, it wasn't a fair fight that he was often banned from subsequent League matches.

The current profile of Jax already has those lightspeed feats; I think he's probably the only one who has it among champs who aren't celestial/universal.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Jax_(League_of_Legends)

So I see no harm in maintaining this speed for Jax, based on his consistent vs Viktor/Lux/other light-based Champion gameplay feats. Level 18 Jax is very strong 1v1, objectively one of the strongest among all LoL champs by stats, either gameplay or lore.


So are we applying Gameplay/Lore composite feat for the champions, then?

And the post is a mess lol, sorry for that

 

[Pocket-Chu]

Agreed, Jax freakin wrecks.

But anyway what I actually wanted to say was-

Swain at one point had a Planet level rating, what happened to that?

 

[Gemmysaur]

Yeah! Lightspeed Jax. But, is it really okay to use gameplay here? I mean, I don't remember it being used in other gameverses.

Also, Planet level Swain was with prep iirc.