Major Black Clover Downgrade

[Epsilon_R]

Word Devil>Licht=Lumiere>Demon Licht=33.14 GT

Yami was able to cut the Devil

Asta and Yuno were able to harm the Devil (even if it was a small scar).

Therefore, Asta and Yuno are weaker to an unknown extent than the Word Devil who is stronger to an unknown extent than Demon Licht. For accuracy, they scale to 33.14 Gigatons

Party could damage and even disintegrate Word Devil's spells with his remaining demon powers. Therefore Patry is 33.14 Gigatons at the very least.

Dark Elf Patry is Above that.

Asta blocked strikes from Dark Elf Patry. He even tanked his Demon Light magic Danmaku.

Therefore, Asta is weaker but still comparable to Demon Licht who is above 33.14 Gigatons.

THEREFORE: Asta SCALES to the FULL VALUE and NOT HALF of it.


Can we close this now?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yuno also took strikes from Dark Elf Patry, because he couldn't evade them all.

Them together dealt with Ray of Judgement, so they should scale.

Even Nozel blocked some of Dark Elf's Patry's attacks, and trapped him. He shouldn't be 7-B in the slightest.

 

[Peter1129]

Lumiere is not stronger than Demon Licht. In chapter 205 page 6 when Demon Licht was about to shoot the attack that would destroy Clover Kingdom, Lumiere wasn't even sure if he could defend against it. Actually now that I think about it nobody should even scale to the full values of the Clover Kingdom destruction. Lumiere only defeated Demon Licht because Licht was deliberately thinning his mana and thus weakening himself. He even admits he can't stop the attack if it weren't for the magic tools absorbing the attack on top of Licht weakening himself.

Like I said the only time he did major damage was through the dimension slash. The only time he did damage without the dimension slash was in chapter 202 page 8. And it was also state that Darkness magic is effective against devils.

And like I said that was via combining their powers together not done by other of them individually. Which is why they should only scale to half the value.

Patry using Demon light magic is the same as Dark Elf Patry. He even said he could now use it to help which means it's still the same as before. Asta and Yuno only managed to deflect his strongest attack together and individually they were getting overwhelmed.

He was overwhelmed and he specifically said if it weren't for his anti magic cushioning the attack he would've died. So they are no where near comparable. Him being twice as weak makes sense with him being able to put up a fight but still be much weaker.

Taking attacks from somebody stronger than you doesn't mean you scale to them. You can still take attacks from characters stronger than you even if you are only half as strong as them.

Exactly together so they should only scale to half.

Nozel countered his demon light magic by compressing his mercury so it creates a surface that reflects light this was stated in chapter 199 page 9. It has nothing to do with his AP.

 

[Peter1129]

You know what I should probably create a separate thread so this becomes the main topic and more people will see it. Just realized that the current 6-C scaling has a lot of problems.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Lumiere is not stronger than Demon Licht. In chapter 205 page 6 when Demon Licht was about to shoot the attack that would destroy Clover Kingdom, Lumiere wasn't even sure if he could defend against it. Actually now that I think about it nobody should even scale to the full values of the Clover Kingdom destruction. Lumiere only defeated Demon Licht because Licht was deliberately thinning his mana and thus weakening himself. He even admits he can't stop the attack if it weren't for the magic tools absorbing the attack on top of Licht weakening himself.

Lumiere's attack still left Demon Licht to nothing but bones. Thinning his mana =/= Being physically weaker so he's still above Demon Licht. He was even able to block his beam with his own.

Like I said the only time he did major damage was through the dimension slash. The only time he did damage without the dimension slash was in chapter 202 page 8. And it was also state that Darkness magic is effective against devils.

It wasn't stated to be Effective against devils. Yami just said that his Word Soul Magic couldn't affect his Dark Magic.

And like I said that was via combining their powers together not done by other of them individually. Which is why they should only scale to half the value.

And this is assuming WD is just 33.14 Gigatons, which isn't the case since he's above Licht and Lumière who are above Demon Licht. For accuracy, Asta scales to 33.14 Gigatons.

Patry using Demon light magic is the same as Dark Elf Patry. He even said he could now use it to help which means it's still the same as before. Asta and Yuno only managed to deflect his strongest attack together and individually they were getting overwhelmed.

They weren't overwhelmef at all. Asta was able to deflect his strikes in cqc and even push him back

He was overwhelmed and he specifically said if it weren't for his anti magic cushioning the attack he would've died. So they are no where near comparable. Him being twice as weak makes sense with him being able to put up a fight but still be much weaker.

Asta said "If it wasn't for the flowing Anti-Magic" Flowing Anti-Magic basically means his demon form.

 

[AstralKing7]

Jsut make a separate thread for it because no one is scaling to demon licht but Word Devil hismelf because it was the word devils power not licht's magic in the first place.


I agree the reasoning for profiles do need to be fixed but I don't agree with a lot of the downgrades at all.

 

[Duedate8898]

While I have to agree with the points about how not everyone should scale to Demon Licht, we have at least one person who does and that's the Word Devil. From there, we have four different characters who fully scale, that being of Licht, Lumiere, Asta and Yuno with their respective super weapons. Those who can scale but not fully are that of Asta and Yuno, because it was not just a scratch they did to his arm together, but they nearly cut it off with their attack, and Demon Patri because he's capable of taking on the pair of them. What comes into question is scaling Nozel to Demon Patri, because while he did seem confident in that he'd be able to harm him with his mercury magic during the fight all he did was restrain the elf and reflect it back at him. But this can be reconciled by scaling him to Yami because as its been noted, the Devil never says themselves weak to Dark Magic just that their magic can't affect it.

Where scaling goes from there can be figured out by the rest.

 

[Peter1129]

@Epsilon He was still weakened. Lumiere only blocked beams shot with one hand from Demon Licht. The attack that was going to destroy Clover Kingdom was done by charging up using all four of his hands Lumiere also stated he wasn't even sure if he could block this attack that was going to destroy Clover Kingdom.

Yami: (Was able to cut Word Devil's wing. Though, Dark Magic is effective against demons)

You literally said it yourself it's effective against devils. Also Yami stated he could only barely block his attacks. And this was while the Word Devil wasn't using his grimoire. Which again shows Yami is far weaker and shouldn't fully scale to the god tiers.

Like I said Black Asta only scales half the AP of the god tiers. And the god tiers don't even scale to the full value of the clover kingdom destruction. At most they will probably only scale to a fourth of the Clover Kingdom destruction AP via Lumiere stopping a single handed beam from Demon Licht. Lumiere admits he can't stop the attack and required the magic tools he and Sekre created to absorb it on top of Licht to purposely weaken himself to just barely defeat him.

They were clearly overwhelmed. Yuno tried blocking an attack but was blasted away along with his defense. Asta also tried to attack him but was blocked rather easily. Also later on Spirit Dive Yuno couldn't do a thing to Word Devil's magic while Patry using his dark elf powers can which shows that there is a big difference in power.

Still doesn't mean they are comparable. It's clearly shown that both Asta and Yuno are far weaker.

 

[Peter1129]

To be honest right now I don't even think the Word Devil should scale to Demon Licht's full AP. He straight up admits he can't beat Lumiere even if he had taken over Licht's body. Which means even with a body he is still weaker than Lumiere. He is only stronger than him when he obtains both a body and a grimoire. And Lumiere might only scale to a fourth of Demon Licht's AP. Like you said Asta and Yuno did it together so they should only scale to half of the Word Devil's AP. Nozel only restrained Dark Elf Patry after he got greatly weakened because all his attacks reflected back at him via reflective surfaces. His AP clearly doesn't scale to Dark Elf Patry as his magic just hard counters Patry. He should instead scale to Yami who should likely scale to Noelle.

 

[Epsilon_R]

You literally said it yourself it's effective against devils.

And I was wrong back then. Next.


Also Yami stated he could only barely block his attacks. So did Asta/Yuno, yet he scales.


And this was while the Word Devil wasn't using his grimoire.

So...? You know that even without a Grimoire, he's still above Demon Licht, Right?


Like I said Black Asta only scales half the AP of the god tiers. And the god tiers don't even scale to the full value of the clover kingdom destruction.

And Like I said, they do


At most they will probably only scale to a fourth of the Clover Kingdom destruction AP via Lumiere stopping a single handed beam from Demon Licht.

Now this is bs. Are you forgetting that he litteraly left Demon Licht to nothing but bones? So yeah he fully scales.

Lumiere admits he can't stop the attack and required the magic tools he and Sekre created to absorb it on top of Licht to purposely weaken himself to just barely defeat him.

Barely.... Also you seem to take Lumière's statement to the word of god, he was only questioning himself if he could block it or not, yes there's a chance that he isn't able to block it...but there's also a chance he is. And because feats>>>Statements, Lumiere leaving Demon Licht to a pile of bones>>>Lumiere questioning himself if he can block the blast.

They were clearly overwhelmed. Yuno tried blocking an attack but was blasted away along with his defense. Asta also tried to attack him but was blocked rather easily. Also later on Spirit Dive Yuno couldn't do a thing to Word Devil's magic while Patry using his dark elf powers can which shows that there is a big difference in power.

Honestly I don't really know if you're talking about the Devil or Patry. First, Yuno never tried to block an attack against WD nor Dark Elf Patry, sorry but read the fight against. Even Asta never attacked Patry at all. What are you talking about? Second, Of course Yuno couldn't do anything to the Devil's sludge, you know why? Because he ates Magic form the human world. That means the only way to destroy the sludge would be by:

1- Using Demon Magic, which Patry did to destroy the Sludge.

2- Using Forbidden Magic, which Licht uses since he used Forbidden Magic to become Demon Licht. The Devil himself stated that he used Forbidden Magic to affect magic from the other world

3- Having remnants of Demon Magic of Forbidden Magic, which Yuno used by condensing the surrounding magic into a sword with Mana Zone, allowing him to use Spirit of Zephyr

 

[Epsilon_R]

To be honest right now I don't even think the Word Devil should scale to Demon Licht's full AP. He straight up admits he can't beat Lumiere even if he had taken over Licht's body. Which means even with a body he is still weaker than Lumiere. He is only stronger than him when he obtains both a body and a grimoire. And Lumiere might only scale to a fourth of Demon Licht's AP. Like you said Asta and Yuno did it together so they should only scale to half of the Word Devil's AP. Nozel only restrained Dark Elf Patry after he got greatly weakened because all his attacks reflected back at him via reflective surfaces. His AP clearly doesn't scale to Dark Elf Patry as his magic just hard counters Patry. He should instead scale to Yami who should likely scale to Noelle.

For the last time, he didn't took over Licht's Body. Licht used Forbidden Magic to prevent the Devil to possess him. Go find the official translation and you'll see that it's just MS that mistranslated the sentence.

It feels like downplay at this point. I should also note which of your arguments have been debunked so I don't have to repeat myself


-Asta being 2× weaker than Patry: Debunked. Asta was able to block some of his strikes and even push him back

-Lumiere being 1/4 Demon Licht: Debunked. Lumiere left Licht to a pile of bones.

-Devil possessing Licht's body: Debunked. Mistranslation of ***********. Here he even says the opposite

-Yuno not being able to destroy Devil's sludge: Debunked. The sludges absorbs magic from the Human World, you need Forbidden Magic or Demon Magic to affect it.

Those were pretty much all of your points and all of them were debunked. While I agree that Langris and Nozel only gave trouble to/defeated their opponent because of their Hax, this has little effect to the points above since Langris was downgraded and Nozel was never 6-C to begin with.


The thread can be closed

 

[Duedate8898]

@Peter You're just ignoring the bit where Yami's magic was used to hurt the word devil, and that's one of the cases when the unoficial tranlation disagrees with the official one.

Here the devil states quite the opposite.

 

[AstralKing7]

Peter WD is talking about taking over Lumiere's own body not fighting him.

Also u literally showed a scan where FWK said he wouldn't be able to defend against the attack from Word Devil

 

[Epsilon_R]

@Astral WD isn't possessing Licht at all

 

[Peter1129]

@Epsilon -Asta being 2× weaker than Patry: Debunked. Asta was able to block some of his strikes and even push him back

You don't need to be just as strong to block some attacks from another character. For example in RWBY Yatsuhashi Daichi an 8-C+ and got stomped by Mercury Black an High 8-C but is still able to block some attacks from him. In Nanatsu no Taizai both Ban (Nanatsu no Taizai) and King (Nanatsu no Taizai) can somewhat block and slightly injure Demon King (Nanatsu no Taizai) even though they are over 3x weaker than him. Also the anime shows that it's Patry that pushed himself off Asta not Asta who pushed Patry off.

-Lumiere being 1/4 Demon Licht: Debunked. Lumiere left Licht to a pile of bones.

Demon Licht was weakened and as we saw in chapter 205 he didn't even have a single scratch on him until he weakened himself to be defeated by Lumiere while Lumiere was heavily wounded. So Demon Licht >> Lumiere.

-Devil possessing Licht's body: Debunked. Mistranslation of ***********. Here he even says the opposite

That I admit I didn't realize the translation was wrong. But just correcting something. It was jaiminis box not ***********.

-Yuno not being able to destroy Devil's sludge: Debunked. The sludges absorbs magic from the Human World, you need Forbidden Magic or Demon Magic to affect it.

Fair enough about this.

Also I am pretty sure Nozel and Langris shouldnt have been downgraded. They should all still be 6-C since they are stronger than fodder elves who could give Yami and Mereoleona trouble in groups.

@Duedate The first time Yami cuts with a durability negating attack. The second time with a normal slash he only cut the tail. The third and final time he used a stronger version of his durability negating slash to cut the Word Devil. So the only time Yagi didn't use a durability negating attack it only cut the tail.

Yeah I just realized the translation was wrong.

@Astralking Word Devil was trying to take over Licht's body not Lumiere.

That was Demon Licht about to use the Clover Kingdom destroying attack not Word Devil.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Demon Licht was weakened and as we saw in chapter 205 he didn't even have a single scratch on him until he weakened himself to be defeated by Lumiere while Lumiere was heavily wounded. So Demon Licht >> Lumiere.

I already said it earlier. Thinning his mana =/= Being physically weaker, same thing as Increasing your mana =/= Being physically stronger

Lumiere was also able to destroy the magic with sheer power same with Licht. So yeah Yuno is no where near as strong.

As I said earlier:

Of course Yuno couldn't do anything to the Devil's sludge, you know why? Because he ates Magic form the human world. That means the only way to destroy the sludge would be by:

1- Using Demon Magic, which Patry did to destroy the Sludge.

2- Using Forbidden Magic, which Licht uses since he used Forbidden Magic to become Demon Licht. The Devil himself stated that he used Forbidden Magic to affect magic from the other world

3- Having remnants of Demon Magic of Forbidden Magic, which Yuno used by condensing the surrounding magic into a sword with Mana Zone, allowing him to use Spirit of Zephyr

In the exact same panel you've shown, WD said that they can affect magic from his world


Also I am pretty sure Nozel and Langris shouldnt have been downgraded. They should all still be 6-C since they are stronger than fodder elves who could give Yami and Mereoleona trouble in groups.

Let's leave that to another thread for now

 

[Duedate8898]

Taking off the tail is still doing damage, and the context of the scene makes it clear that said damage would've been worst if it had hit anywhere else on his body. That's why I believe Yami can scale.

 

[AstralKing7]

I see you guys didn't understand what was going on in that flashback at all.

Like I said when the thread gets made I'll show the evidence. It was the world devils magic that was going to destroy clover kingdom


@Epsilon he would have a resistance to light magic if he took over FWK body. Like that's what is literally being stated. The scan u literally showed is saying that


Did u guys literally forget he tried to take FWK's body right before those events??? Which leads up to him saying you should have given me your body???

We need the official translations. WD only fears the light magic in his true form. He said when he gets a body light magic will not effect him anymore. Which in turn is true because the only thing that works on him is Dark Magic.

He wasn't saying that FWK is stronger than him. His true form is very vulnerable to light magic in the first place.

 

[Peter1129]

Taking off the tail is still doing damage, and the context of the scene makes it clear that said damage would've been worst if it had hit anywhere else on his body. That's why I believe Yami can scale.

The damage is so little that being 2x weaker should still allow you to do the same. Also here Yami's darkness magic was put in the same group as Julius' time magic. So I believe darkness magic seems to have some kind of special effectiveness against devils or at least all attacks negate durability to some extent against devils. Since it makes no sense for Yami to fully scale to the Word Devil as he was slightly weaker than Charla who isn't even an apostle and is far weaker than the likes of Licht.

 

[Epsilon_R]

@Peter but there isn't any justification for anyone to be 2× weaker anymore. Yami should just be weaker to an unknown extent. Also he's not weaker than Charla, he even said he didn't want to kill her

 

[Peter1129]

Like I said Asta and Yuno working together can scratch the Word Devil and reflect Dark Elf Party's strongest attack. Valkyrie Dress Noelle is a lvl 1 which is the minimum lvl needed to fight devils should make her around the same lvl as Black Asta and Spirit Dive Yuno who by combining their powers can hurt the Word Devil. And Noelle should scale to the captains like Yami.

 

[Duedate8898]

@astral What chapter, I can grab it?

@Peter You keep saying this, and my entire issue is that your entire idea relies on this same effect not being possible if that attack had hit anywhere else. Which we know isn't true because of how the Devil acts, and we've already seen why Yami's Magic is in the same tier as Julius's, the word devil couldn't affect it with his own.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Like I said Asta and Yuno working together can scratch the Word Devil and reflect Dark Elf Party's strongest attack. Valkyrie Dress Noelle is a lvl 1 which is the minimum lvl needed to fight devils should make her around the same lvl as Black Asta and Spirit Dive Yuno who by combining their powers can hurt the Word Devil. And Noelle should scale to the captains like Yami.

And again, except for the combined attack (Which 1/ Almost cut his arm and 2/ Devil scales above someone who is above 33.14 Gigatons) there's no evidence for them to be 2× weaker than 33.14 Gigatons

I will say it again WD is far above 33.14 Gigatons not just equal, so if anything, Asta and Yuno are 2× weaker than Word Devil, not Demon Licht

 

[Peter1129]

And like I said they are still 33.13 Gigatons. So halving that would make them 16.565 Gigatons even if they are above it. Seriously what is so hard to understand about Above 33.13 / 2 = Above 16.565?

And like I said there is no evidence of him being far stronger. At most Word Devil >= Demon Licht = 33.13 Gigatons.

 

[Epsilon_R]

How can you say that WD is only 33.14* Gigatons if he's above Licht and Lumière who is above DL? They are just significantly weaker than him, while the WD is significantly above Demon Licht. Due to not having evidence, it is preferred to just stay at 33.14 Gigatons. That's all.

 

[Peter1129]

Licht and Lumiere are NOT above Demon Licht. Did you even read the fight? Also it's 33.13 Gigatons.

Here we see Lumiere matching a one handed beam from Demon Licht. The next page we see them having a fight. The page after that we see that Demon Licht doesn't have a single wound on him while Lumiere already has blood on him this is also when he says he can't defend against the 33.13 Gigaton attack. Here we see even more clearly that he is wounded while Demon Licht isn't and he needed the magic items help. Than it turns out not even the magic items were enough to stop the 33.13 Gigaton attack and in the end they needed Licht himself to stop the attack. After that Lumiere kills him. Later in the aftermaths we see that Lumiere was heavily wounded.

Conclusion Demon Licht >> Lumiere. This makes sense as Demon Licht is a stronger version of Licht who is comparable to Lumiere. Basically like how Dark Elf Patry is stronger than normal Patry.

 

[Epsilon_R]

1/ They are. Besides if you did the last calc you would know that it is 33.14 GT, M3X just made a mistake.

2/ Dark Elf Patry is a Dark Elf, Demon Licht is a demon. Patry became a Dark Elf with a massive amount of despair and hatred, Licht became a Demon by using one of the most forbidden of Magic. Therefore DEP being stronger than Patry =/= Demon Licht being stronger than Licht. And As I said earlier Thinning you Magic =/= Being physically weaker. Bring something new already!

3/ No matter what you say, Lumiere left Licht to a pile of bones. You brought nothing new that I haven't debunked yet.

This seriously needs to be closed

 

[Peter1129]

It was clearly shown that Lumiere is weaker than Demon Licht. I have absolutely no idea how you got he was stronger. Lumiere only turned him to bones after Licht regained a bit of control and stopped himself from doing anything. So at most Word Devil is just stronger than Demon Licht while Lumiere still scales to 33.14 Gigatons but just barely.

Also Licht turned into a demon because of negative mana from the Word Devil not because of the forbidden spell. The forbidden spell was to prevent him from being possessed.

Seriously are you just gonna repeatedly say close it? You're just ignoring everything I said.

 

[Epsilon_R]

"Lumiere only turned him to bones after Licht regained a bit of control and stopped himself from doing anything."

You said it yourself! Stopping someone from doing anything doesn't mean in the slightest he became weaker. Besides in other translations, they just said Licht became docile (which is the same thing as not doing anything) so for the last time: DL didn't become weaker to let Lumière kill him and therefore, Lumière is above DL. End of the debate.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Also Licht turned into a demon because of negative mana from the Word Devil not because of the forbidden spell. The forbidden spell was to prevent him from being possessed.

And the forbidden spell consisted of becoming a demon himself

 

[Peter1129]

How in the world is Lumiere above Demon Licht? We clearly see that Demon Licht was not wounded in the slightest after a long battle while Lumiere was heavily wounded. Lumiere also straight up says he can't defend against his strongest attack. And in the end Lumiere only defeated Licht after he was unable to move? Everything clearly points to Demon Licht >> Lumiere. How did you get the other way around?

 

[Peter1129]

And the forbidden spell consisted of becoming a demon himself

He first says he's being overwhelmed by negative mana and he'll become a demon. After that when he says he's not gonna let the Word Devil take his body the Word Devil said Licht going to use a forbidden magic on his body. So this clearly means the forbidden spell prevented him from getting possessed. It's the negative mana that turned him into a devil.

 

[Epsilon_R]

At this point you are just ignoring the fact that Lumiere left him to a pile of bones...

You're only arguments are basically

- Lumiere questioning himself (which doesn't mean he 100% can't block it)

- Not doing a scratch (Yeah, while he litteraly killed him, of course...)

- Suppressed himself (which 1/ You don't have any evidence except of "He became more docile" or "He thinned his mana" and 2/ Thinning his mana doesn't mean that he became physically weaker)


As for the forbidden part. Let's say that you're right, that's has still nothing to do with how Patry became a Dark Elf. What I say is still consistent since Dark elves are stated to be different than Demons.

So be that way but don't expect anything to change.

I will unfollow this thread.

 

[Peter1129]

He felt the power of the attack and literally said he's not sure if he could even block it. This is pretty clearly showing that Lumiere isn't confident he could block the attack which shows that he is weaker.

Killing him after he was unable to move when previously he couldn't even hurt him after a long battle which means all his attacks were blocked.

I didn't even bring this up. You're the only one still hung up about it. I even said Lumiere would at most barely scale to 33.14 Gigatons.

Becoming a demon should've given Licht a boost just like how Patry got stronger after becoming a dark elf as he uses demon light magic as a dark elf.

Well I'm probably gonna make a separate thread for this to grab some more attention from other members. As this thread has too many topics that were previously discussed.