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Major Black Clover Downgrade

To recap:

  • Apparently no apostles scale to Licht
    • They all should back to Low 7-B the same goes to Yami and others captains
  • Black Asta and Spirit Dive Yuno are solid 6-C only with Black Divider and Spirit of Zephyr.
  • Fana's feat needs to be accepted by a Calc Group Member before we use it (I suggest Epsilon ask for evaluations here)
  • The low 7-B can stay (As much as I still disagree in some things)
  • Some abilites needs to be removed and adjusted.
I'll ask to a moderator comment here to see if the changes can be applied.
 
Rei Rubro said:
@BlackAstaSenpai
The ability get a name doesn't make it stronger, that mass of Anti-Magic was the power of an uncontrolled Black Divider, however Asta learns control and sharp that power at the end of the chapter (Generating the Black Divider)... So yes it's the same Black Divider, the only difference is that was out of control. And it don't change anything in Black Asta tier. So, what's your point?
Click to expand...
You never proved that it is the same thing. There is more evidence to support that unrefined Black Divider is weaker. My point is that you are incorrect in stating that it was only Black Divider that puts him at that level, when he did this with an unrefined version.
 
In fact you're right but discuss this is pointless, Asta can't activate this "imperfect version" of Black Divider, we saw it in the last chapter...
 
Asta still damaged Wevil without Black Divider or Unrefined Black Divider though. He even states this himself in chapter 198. Whereas you are saying in your post that Asta only damaged or hit Wevil with Black Divider. You also say the Devil never hurt/hit Asta and Yuno even though he did in 197. Unless if you were referring to them not getting hit once they got their new spells.

Also, Yami was able to parry storm of swords. An attack that would likely damage Licht/Lumiere since they were trying to parry it. Putting his AP at those levels.
 
  • Is there a reason why the Apostles should be far weaker than Licht? If not, they should only backscale from the 6-C feat
    • As much as I don't like it, except Mereoleona, all Captain's stays at Low 7-B. However, Asta, Yuno, Luck, Charmy and Noelle would stay at 6-C for harming/defeating an Apostle.
  • Fana's feat was re-requested
 
Epsilon R said:
*Is there a reason why the Apostles should be far weaker than Licht? If not, they should only backscale from the 6-C feat
    • As much as I don't like it, except Mereoleona, all Captain's stays at Low 7-B. However, Asta, Yuno, Luck, Charmy and Noelle would stay at 6-C for harming/defeating an Apostle.
  • Fana's feat was re-requested
Click to expand...
I can provide a post later in depth of why the apostles are not far behind half asleep Licht at all. Also, I don't see why all of the captains should go down to 7-B. Yami is comparable to Jack who could have defeated Fana if not for Regenerationn hax. Yami parried storm of swords which could have damaged Licht and Lumiere. Fuegoleon one shot an apostle w/o the salamander. Nozel > Dark Elf Patry. Elf Patry was already an apostle and had gotten both a stronger magic type and mana boosts as a dark elf.
 
Rei Rubro said:
Hello everyone.
The reason I'm doing this thread is that I recently finished reading the manga and realized that there are dozens of weird things in Black Clover profiles.

First of all, power scaling.

Several characters are listed at 6-C but the reason is inconsistent.

  • We have Yami listed at 6-C by "damaging the Word Devil" but its not true, I mean this is true but Yami uses a dura negation-based attack for that, and every time that he hit the devil was with Jigen Giri.
    • Many others characters (Like Mereoleona) gets scalling with Yami and because that many elves too. They all should be downgraded.
This should downgraded also Asta and Yuno with Black Divider and Spirit of Zephyr since Licht's ultimate combined Attack with Elves isn't High 6-C anymore.

Another thing that is weird is the ability section of many characters.

  • Yuno has accelered developerment in his BoS key but the reason is from a feat only showed in Elves Arc (chapter 208).
  • Yami has Sleep Manipulation via knock a person by tapping its head (I see it as Pressure Points)
  • Asta has resistance to Power Modificatiom but this Power Mod only affect people with mana and Asta don't have it. Asta has resistance to Power Nulification but the Devil's spear only desistegrate magical powers and Anti-Magic isn't.
  • Luck Voltia has elemental intangibility for a anime only scene
  • Fuegoleon's "Willpower Manipulation" is just Social Influencing
  • The Fear inducement stuff still remain in some profiles when we have two threads for remove it.
Regarding Black Asta and Spirit Dive Yuno at Elves Arc

  • Black Asta is listed at 6-C by stabb the Word Devil I think this should refer to this scene since it was the first time Asta could even hit the devil. Well about being 6-C this ins't wrong but Asta din't do this in only Black Asta form, in this scene he was using Black Divider.
  • The same goes to Yuno, the most next to hurt the Devil was using Spirit of Zephyr. Not only Spirit Dive.
So, here goes my trought... Asta and Yuno should have a 6-C tier only using Black Divider and Spirit of Zephyr. You can say "But Asta and Yuno have 6-C dura, this should scale to AP". They don't have 6-C dura... The Devil couldn't hit Asta and Yuno in the whole fight and I'd love to see someone show me a scan where this happens.

Other inconsistent applications

Click to expand...
Chapter 228, the Heart Queen states that it is Yami's magic type that can damage Wevil NOT just the Dimension slash.
 
@BlackAstaSenpai

It was a pretty minor damage done by a combined attack, this isn't enough to put him at 6-C, but can put they on a "far higher". The Devil himself don't hitted they, he only uses his word magic to make rocks falls on they.

@Epsilon R

This is not how it works. No apostle has any feats that put them on a level similar to Licht. You are trying to reverse the burden of proof. It is not Licht who must reach the level of the apostles, but they who must reach Licht's.
 
Uhhhh it is still damage done to him which he was very impressed by. It wasn't a combined attack in that instance, it was a combo effort to get there and so that Asta could land the attack but it was still Asta doing the damage. Also... it is the Wevil's magic... are you really going to say those rocks are rock level and his swords are sword level? He creates physical and magical swords that can damage people with high durability so obviously the rocks are greater than... rocks. Wevil used multiple spells on them to damage him.

Also while hard to notice there is more than enough evidence that puts most apostles and similar levels to Licht, I will provide a post later.
 
BlackAstaSenpai said:
Chapter 228, the Heart Queen states that it is Yami's magic type that can damage Wevil NOT just the Dimension slash.
Click to expand...
The term "dark magic" is vague, Jigen Giri itself is a dark magic, it can defeat even characters like Son Goku but Yami himself is far below Low 2-C.

@BlackAstaSenpai

He was surprised by their efforts but it implied that all they could do was scratch his arm. It is different from a real damage like Black Divider when he shouted in pain.

Objects like this hurting characters that can withstand megaton bursts is usually what we call PIS but, if you really think the rock had a 6-C AP, show me it hurting a character at that level.
 
They all are apostle, even if they're indeed weaker than Licht, they should still be relatively comparable to them.

It's not like BC is the first verse to do that anyway, besides in BC, characters from the same rank (Like the 9 Captains or the 8 shining generals) are all close in terms of power (Until Fuegoleon received the Fire Spirit)

Licht is considered to be the strongest of the Apostles but nothing proves the others are fodder compared to him.
 
Is better you say what you have to say here in this thread or it will end up being a mess. I mean, we're not even done here.
 
Rei Rubro said:
BlackAstaSenpai said:
Chapter 228, the Heart Queen states that it is Yami's magic type that can damage Wevil NOT just the Dimension slash.
Click to expand...
The term "dark magic" is vague, Jigen Giri itself is a dark magic, it can defeat even characters like Son Goku but Yami himself is far below Low 2-C.
@BlackAstaSenpai

He was surprised by their efforts but it implied that all they could do was scratch his arm. It is different from a real damage like Black Divider when he shouted in pain.

Objects like this hurting characters that can withstand megaton bursts is usually what we call PIS but, if you really think the rock had a 6-C AP, show me it hurting a character at that level.
Click to expand...
Okay, can't tell if bias or troll. We are talking about a Devil from a higher dimension that can create PHYSICAL objects that can damage people like Lumiere. But sure.... The swords and rocks are just swords and rocks....

It isn't PIS. It is also Ignoring that the Devil like three other spells on them besides the rock spell.
 
@Epsilon R

No, to do that you need to show feats that make sense of what you are saying. Licht is treated as the strongest Elf, above all others, where only the first Magic Emperor was on the same level. Other series do wrong not we give the right to do wrong either.

@BlackAstaSenpai

He only injured Lumiere with his trident which is cleary his strongest handed-weapon. Try show a scan where the devil himself hurts them and doesn't use stones to do that and he just used one spell (The rock falling attack).
 
Dude... he made physical matter that could casually bind Licht...

The preponderance of evidence supports that both the MAGICAL and PHYSICAL objects that wevil creates are extremely powerful. He could also casually bind Elf Patry, and could create a spear that could kill Licht. The burden of proof would actually be on you to prove the physicals from the devil are weak. No he literally used multiple spells. "Vacuum wall". "Be Crushed". "Smashed". "Broken to Pieces". "Riddled With Holes".

There are actually people willing to debate you on Discord on this subject if you are interested.
 
Rei Rubro said:
@Epsilon R

No, to do that you need to show feats that make sense of what you are saying. Licht is treated as the strongest Elf, above all others, where only the first Magic Emperor was on the same level. Other series do wrong not we give the right to do wrong either.

@BlackAstaSenpai

He only injured Lumiere with his trident which is cleary his strongest handed-weapon. Try show a scan where the devil himself hurts them and doesn't use stones to do that and he just used one spell (The rock falling attack).
Click to expand...
Then a huge amount of verses in this wiki should be downgraded too...

And once again, there's nothing stating that Licht is that far above them. So if anything, they would be at least Low 7-B, likely/possibly 6-C


Also:

Patry took hits from the Devil.

He became stronger in Dark Elf

Asta was still able to parry some of Patry's strikes


Meaning Asta is significantly weaker but still comparable to the Devil. And let's not forget that the Devil is above Demon Licht.


It's time to sleep for me now
 
@BlackAstaSenpai

Nothing proves that a mere stone would have the same power as his spear or his trident also, when Devil create both of it he have acess to his Grimoire which amp his magic. The same goes for these off-screen "attacks" which he even know how works.

You can call me on Discord but currently i'm a little busy so i can take a long time to answer.

@Epsilon R

There's also nothing stating that they are close to him. So they should be only Low 7-B until you show me a feat or statement that prove the oposite.

Patry took hits but Devil didn't want to kill him, just bring despair to create his grimoire.
 
"Possibly: Should be used to list a hypothetical statistic for a character, but inconclusive due to lack of feats or viable power-scaling. Probability of said hypothetical statistic should also be indeterminate."

So yeah, they can be "At least Low 7-B, possibly 6-C"

Now, what's the conclusion for the normal Captains?
 
Rei Rubro said:
@BlackAstaSenpai
Nothing proves that a mere stone would have the same power as his spear or his trident also, when Devil create both of it he have acess to his Grimoire which amp his magic. The same goes for these off-screen "attacks" which he even know how works.

You can call me on Discord but currently i'm a little busy so i can take a long time to answer.

@Epsilon R

There's also nothing stating that they are close to him. So they should be only Low 7-B until you show me a feat or statement that prove the oposite.

Patry took hits but Devil didn't want to kill him, just bring despair to create his grimoire.
Click to expand...
Can you stop missing the point? The point is that The devil hit them with four spells. You are focusing too much on this rock spell. Also, since every other physical attack is well above what would be rock level, yes we can assume that this physical attack is too since it damaged Elf Spirit Dive Yuno and Black Asta. I am not arguing they are the same power as the trident. It still proves their durability though. The Devil was able to bind Elf Patry, Licht, and even about to kill Licht all without the use of his grimoire.

I will post later, probably tomorrow, proving that most of the apostles are comparable to Licht.
 
also asta have reg-negation(high mid) based on this, but devil Regenerationn comes from his heart, which asta destroy, basically, asta didnt null his regeneraion. he destroy his heart which cause Regenerationn.
 
If that's the case, then Regenerationn Negation shouldn't be on his profile. It's the same with Boros, basically. He doesn't regen from Saitama's SS:SP because he overtaxxed his regen by destroying the jewel.
 
From devil profile: Regenerationn (At least High-Mid, likely higher. As long as the heart inside it's soul is intact, it can simply grow a mouth and use it's word magic to regenerate itself.)

Asta destroy his heart with his sword
 
The thing is, his heart isn't in his soul. If it is, then Asta should have soul manip

Also f* you Auto-corrector
 
Epsilon R said:
The thing is, his heart isn't in his soul. If it is, then Asta should have soul manip
Also f* you Auto-corrector </div>
Click to expand...
asta didnt destroy his soul either, he just attack his heart
 
That's a crt for abilities which have nothing to do with downgrades tbh. That should jsut have a different story bread because this thread here has been getting derailed by so much unnecessary stuff
 
asta didnt destroy his soul either, he just attack his heart

What I meant is if Devil's Heart was in his soul, Asta would need to have soul manip to interact with the heart
 
AstralKing7 said:
His regen doesn't come from his heart bruh wtf
Click to expand...
1)Licht destroy him completely, only his heart remains https://v217.**********.com/manga/Black-Clover/0207-013.png

2)he speaks from his heart, and regenerate https://v217.**********.com/manga/Black-Clover/0207-014.png
 
3)https://v217.**********.com/manga/Black-Clover/0207-015.png he was able to heal because he make a mouth and then speak from it.
 
Asta attempt to destroy his heart but he missed- https://v217.**********.com/manga/Black-Clover/0209-006.png

https://v217.**********.com/manga/Black-Clover/0209-007.png

@eps i didn't find any statememt where it say that devil heart in intact it his soul. Devil have a physical body,not spiritual body
 
He grew a mouth on his heart to regenerate and say "Heal", that doesn't mean he can only regenerate from his heart. Also the Devil can grow mouths anywhere on his body hence why his regen description (which changed for no reason btw) was "As long as a part of him remains, he can simply grow a mouth and use his word magic to heal himself"
 
Devil body didn't have any healing power, he need to speak to heal himself(because of his word magic)

In chapter 211, yami cut him in half using DS so he can able to speak with his mouth,then asta cut his heart so the devil can't able to speak with his heart either. Since he can't speak, he can't heal himself, that's how he died
 
His healing doesn't come from his mouth but his word magic. Asta regen negation is based on magic power source being the energy for the regen that he negates

He literally doesn't need a heart to say regen he jsut needs words and to speak wth lol it's called Word Power magic
 
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