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Magnus (Supernatural) vs Randall Flagg

Really leaning both ways on this one, but I think Flagg has the edge, seeing as he can read minds. (And does so a lot while IC) He'll most likely see Magnus's moves ahead of time, and while he's somewhat slower in terms of combat speed, he should be capable of ending things fairly quickly anyway. Flagg has access to memories when he reads minds also, as shown during his appearance in the flashback portion of Wizard & Glass.

Power null in Supernatural works on younger beings IIRC. Magnus has no way of knowing Flagg's true age, seeing as A) the guy's abuse of time-travelling makes it incredibly hard to pin down how old he is, and B) it's implied at a couple of different points that Flagg himself doesn't even know his true age anymore. More than that, the guy believes "a sheaf of centuries ago" to be a relatively recent time in his life, so he's definitely not young in any sense of the word.

I'm also positive that Flagg's mindhax are way more potent than Magnus's. The latter took a fairly long time just to brainwash Dean due to his willpower IIRC, whereas a person who tried resisting Flagg's mindhax with will alone fell unconscious after the strain caused her to bleed. On top of that, he's calmed down an entire bar and forced them to watch two people kill each other (who he had also mind controlled) with bare minimum effort on his part, can mindhax people from multi-universal distances and can force people into a dream-state with psychic attacks, all of which are also things that Magnus can't do.

Beyond that, Flagg has a number of Magnus's options beaten. He can pierce illusions (as he was able to see Mia, whose very appearance is an illusion as per the nature of succubi in DT), can see invisible beings (as he can see the demon of Maerlyn's Grapefruit, who's portrayed as invisible to everyone else and didn't even have a known appearance until a story which was depicted from Flagg's perspective), and has access to most of the same offensive powers that Cuthbert does. The latter's means of BFR is useless thanks to Flagg's teleportation and mindhaxing range (in fact, if Magnus tries to BFR, he's basically handing Flagg the win), and he really has no way of defending himself against the Walkin' Dude's transmutation and offensive commands. I forget if he has access to Molecular Combustion like most of the rest of the SPN cast does, but even if he has that, he's much less likely to start off with it before Flagg breaks out his hax powers. They're both manipulators rather than straightforward fighters, but when it comes to the ones he doesn't want around, Flagg has a history of just flat-out murking people before a fight can even start.

Also, with speed unequalized, a summoned cloud-to-ground lightning bolt (which Flagg doesn't need a hand motion in order to bring down) will kill Magnus before he can pull up a forcefield.
 
I was gonna go with Magnus, but King's gotten me to change over for now.
 
I'll need to answer later, as there are wrong things in this argument. But, for now, I'll count your vote - but not Aeyu's, as it is based on your argument.

Also bump.
 
Power null in supernatural isn't necessarily based on age. That's just the rule of thumb. Lily Sunders in Supernatural can nullify Angels despite being only over 100 years old while Angels are billions of years old.

It's all about spell work, Death had been bound by a spell and he was a 3-A. If you've got the right spell it takes affect on practically anyone (unless you have resistance).

About Magnus' mind control, there's a note on the profile stating that it only took long because of Dean's Indomitable Will. Dean's been in Hell for 30 years straight being tortured endlessly, so yeah Magnus's mind control can still work on someone who hasn't shown such will.
 
Nico-v11 said:
Power null in supernatural isn't necessarily based on age. That's just the rule of thumb. Lily Sunders in Supernatural can nullify Angels despite being only over 100 years old while Angels are billions of years old.

It's all about spell work, Death had been bound by a spell and he was a 3-A. If you've got the right spell it takes affect on practically anyone (unless you have resistance).

About Magnus' mind control, there's a note on the profile stating that it only took long because of Dean's Indomitable Will. Dean's been in Hell for 30 years straight being tortured endlessly, so yeah Magnus's mind control can still work on someone who hasn't shown such will.
Click to expand...
I that a vote?
 
Voting inconclusive. They've both got like a hundred different ways to one shot each other. Randall says goodbye, Magnus dead. Magnus BFR's (he literally lives in what can be called a spatial box separated from Earth).
 
Flagg is almost guaranteed to start off the fight with something instantly lethal or incapacitating, so unless Magnus does the same right off the bat, he's likely to lose.

As I mentioned before, Flagg's mindhax can work on victims who are in a completely different universe from him, so even if Magnus BFRs him, he should still be able to pull out a win from wherever he is. And he has fairly good resistance to mindhax on his profile now, so Magnus's mind control is almost certainly a no-go even without factoring in whether or not it can be resisted with pure will.

You're right about the powernull, though. My bad on that.
 
Voting Magnus for his insane versatility and hax advantage, i just dont see Flagg dealing with all that stuff, whats Flag going to do to resist Morality Manip or his BFR or his Death Manip or Transmutation. Plus Mags could just Null Randall's powers if need be.
 
Transmutation won't work on a guy who can shapeshifting as easily as Flagg.

Already explained why the BFR wouldn't be enough to take Flagg out of the fight.

Morality Manipulation is a subset of Mind Manipulation, which Flagg has resistance to.

Unless Magnus uses Death Manipulation or Power Nullification right out of the gate, Flagg cuts off his breathing or turns him into a howling dog. Both of which are in-character for him to do before a fight can even happen.
 
Men of Letters were trained to stop their threats quickly. Albeit he was a rogue Man of Letters, he was yeat more "violent" - if we can call it that way - than the average, as we can see in his page's quote. He liked to end potential enemies before they could give him trouble.
 
And which of his powers is he likely to do first?

It's not so much that I doubt he'd be willing to end the fight right away (I don't), but some of his options won't work to stop Flagg, as I've said above. Meanwhile, Flagg's two favorite powers are certain to work, and he's almost guaranteed to use them right away, since he also likes to end potential enemies before they give him trouble.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
And which of his powers is he likely to do first?
Click to expand...
Most likely BFR. It's one of his favourite techniques (and one of mine too. See, it's very practical: you'll simply send what bothers you away.).

I've seen that your argument to counter BFR was Flagg's telepathy, but I'll need to tell you that most of the - if not all - High-Ranked witches/sorcerers in Supernatural do have Mental resistance - even Crowley, a very powerful adept of Telepathy, couldn't read his mother's mind (actually, not even Lucifer could) - and in Crowley's case, she was depowered by Olivette's spell.

But, if he doesn't start with BFR, he'll most certainly start with Willpower Manipulation.

Anyway, that's simply to clarify.

The score is 1x1 + 1 inconclusive. This comment could also be used as a huge bump.
 
Willpower Manipulation is another form of Mind Manipulation, and it's actually even closer to the mind manip Flagg was able to resist. His verse has a sphere which causes people to become infatuated by it the moment they so much as touches it, and said sphere completely failed to affect him at any point despite him handling it numerous times. Moreover, as far as their mind control goes, Magnus needs to recite a spell. Flagg can do it just by saying 1-2 words. Or by simply smiling.

As for his telepathy/mind manip, Flagg's feats in that area are nothing to take lightly. He bent an entire bar full of people to his will with just a few words, forced a woman to broadcast her memories to him against her will, and in The Gunslinger, he was able to plant a vision in Roland's mind that forced the latter to perceive the entire universe trapped inside of a single atom of a blade of grass. Roland's willpower (which is ridiculous) was the only thing that prevented him from losing his mind while he was having that vision.

What's the best mind manip that Magnus (or those comparable to him) can resist?
 
Hmm i'm not sure of Magnus' best feat but if he's anywhere comparable to Rowena this match gets even more interesting.
 
He should be at or above her level. He was pretty much the most brilliant Man of Letters and they had way more resources than Rowena ever had
 
Hellbeast1 said:
Hmm i'm not sure of Magnus' best feat but if he's anywhere comparable to Rowena this match gets even more interesting.
Click to expand...
He's actually way above her. He was likely the strongest and smartest Man of Letters of history. Do you know the Bunker? Where no angel, demon etc can enter when it's closed? Magnus projected every single warding spell. Do you remember the Werther Box? Where the Men of Letters hid Nadia's Codex? Magnus created it. And Rowena needed the codex to use de Book of the Damned. Also, IIRC, Magnus could understand both, the Codex and the Book, while Rowena needed a time to understand the Codex and a long time to decipher the Book.

Magnus was deemed a Master of Spells soon after his initiation and, although Rowena - and almost every other witch or sorcerer in the series is way much older than Magnus - he is still much more powerful. As Crowley states, witches/sorcerers are naturally below demons. Well, Crowley went with his best demons to look after Magnus and he wasn't able to sense him while being at his door. Anyway, his page mentions Rowena. Now, I'll answer King.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
Willpower Manipulation is another form of Mind Manipulation, and it's actually even closer to the mind manip Flagg was able to resist. His verse has a sphere which causes people to become infatuated by it the moment they so much as touches it, and said sphere completely failed to affect him at any point despite him handling it numerous times. Moreover, as far as their mind control goes, Magnus needs to recite a spell. Flagg can do it just by saying 1-2 words. Or by simply smiling.
Click to expand...
Well, Willpower Manipulation is actually a variation of Empathic Manipulation. But, if you mean Flagg could resist it, then Magnus would not use it. Why? Well, because he knows the strengths of his enemies - as we could see when he identified that Dean had an indomitable will that would take hard work to bypass.


MrKingOfNegativity said:
As for his telepathy/mind manip, Flagg's feats in that area are nothing to take lightly. He bent an entire bar full of people to his will with just a few words, forced a woman to broadcast her memories to him against her will, and in The Gunslinger, he was able to plant a vision in Roland's mind that forced the latter to perceive the entire universe trapped inside of a single atom of a blade of grass. Roland's willpower (which is ridiculous) was the only thing that prevented him from losing his mind while he was having that vision.

What's the best mind manip that Magnus (or those comparable to him) can resist?
Click to expand...
Well, there aren't people comparable to him. He is likely the most powerful sorcerer in the series - at least until they show us a new character - and is superior to basically anything I'm going to say here.

First I have to point out an important detail: his warding spells. As I said in the comment above, Magnus's wards were ridiculous. He could keep angels, demons, Knights of Hell, Princes of Hell and very likely any other creature outside the Bunker. Can you imagine what would he put on his house? Or on his mind?

Yeah, on his mind. It is very common to shield one's mind in Supernatural. As we can see when the Winchester shield themselves against demonic possession. Or when Death shields Sam's mind from his own memories (not comparing Magnus to Death, obviously, but it appears that Death's wall inside Sam's mind was not all that powerful, as Castiel blowed it up with a single move).

Even the latter (Castiel), a big layman when talking about magic, (by the gods, this guy's magic is very poor when comparing to at least Rowena's and Crowley's) could hide both Sam and Dean from both Lucifer and Michael.

You know, even while caged, Lucifer telepathy was immense. He could enter Sam's mind - whose will is comparable or even superior to Dean's - and create so big hallucinations that he was losing his mind. Same Sam who endured years of torture in Hell. Also, the hallucinations were so strong that when Castiel took them, he became crazy - and angels have resistance, if not immunity, to telepathy, as we saw with Oliver Pryce.

And Michael is even more powerful.

Yet, Castiel's spell hid both the Winchesters from both the Archengels.

Well, in case you argue that Magnus didn't shield his mind - although that would be very improbable - I'll point out the natural mind resistance of witches and sorcerers.

You do know Rowena, don't you? Well, remember when she was in Hell? When she hid her thoughts from every single demon (any demon can read minds)?

Rowena also hid her thoughts from Lucifer. Twice! And Lucifer feats are not low-leveled, as I pointed out above.

Anyway, I do think a warding spell would do the trick.

OBS: He was also immune to Oliver Pryce's telepathy, as very likely all the other Men of Letters were (as they trained him in usage of his powers).

He also was immune to his own mind-cheating spell, which he put on the Werther Box and which cheated many powerful Men of Letters and even cheated Sam and Dean - and could even affect the bearer of the Mark of Cain, albeit the Mark managed to overpower the spell.

Well... that's it.
 
I'm not sure why I'm only just now getting a notification for this, but whatever.

On one hand, I think there needs to be proof that Magnus "always knows the strengths of his opponents", since the exact context of him identifying Dean's willpower is important. I don't see precognition (that's what that qualifies as) on his page, either.

I also wouldn't compare Lucifer's hallucinations to Flagg's visions unless they're specifically as complex as the one Flagg hit Roland with. Flagg was forcing him to perceive an entire universe, trapped inside of an atom, within a blade of grass located on a higher plane of existence. While also perceiving the entirety of that blade of grass on a subatomic level.

On the other hand, there's some other valid evidence of Magnus being able to block out Flagg's mindhax, so I suppose I'll switch to inconclusive. It's a "who fires first" situation at this point.
 
Yeah. Sad to say, you picked one of the least-used Dark Tower characters we have. Which is a shame, seeing as he has far and away the highest number of feats.

I don't suppose Magnus is as popular on this site as he should be either. Actually, I'm not sure if anyone in SPN gets any regular use save for Lucifer.
 
I think they're interesting for fights (and interesting in general), so I use them on occasion. But yeah, nobody else really touches them.
 
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