Mace Windu downgrade

[FrancoGYFV]

You're on a vs wiki that tries to apply numbers to its stats and you don't seem to even have a basic understanding of why, when a ****** like Opress or Ventress fails to break Kenobi's bones with singular stikes when matching blows in a Force rage, let alone neutral, that the bump can't be significant
Same when his ass gets ragdolled and he just walks it off fine and with no hampered mobility due to severe wounds he should be sporting

And yet you're wrong when he thinks to himself things like "sink back into Vapaad" during his fight in Revenge of the Sith in the narrative. Kind of indicates Vapaad is something, like most any psychic power, is something Windu needs to be concentrating on to draw from

So, other than ignorance and lies?

What arguments do you have that are worth my time buddy? :maybe

Because Kenobi is also a Force User, and usually they don't engage in a pure brawling fight? Every now and then they hit each other with direct contact, but that doesn't mean it will be strong enough to break one of the strongest Jedi of the Era easily. Also, you didn't read what I said as well. I never said that Forge Rage was a huge amp, first because generally is just an moment of anger (like with Savage and Ventress), like here:

"The style is based on chanelling the Dark Side of the force (that gets stronger with hate, anger, suffering), while not getting controlled by it. Usually it doesn't make a lot of difference bcause Mace is a Jedi, so he keeps his emotions in check."

I said that Windu's amp was greater than any other because he felt completely obliterated by the fact that Palpatine was a Lord Sith. He doesn't need to "sink into Vaapad", he always fight like that, but in that speciffic case he got way too deep into it - exactly because his anger at the time was like nothing he felt before.

Now it's my time to ask, what point do you have to say he wasn't amped from anger and rage, other than simply saying "because I don't think he was"?

 

[ChaosTheory123]

You're not saying it explicitly, but your ignorance leads to the implicit "this amp has to be a multiplier of several dozen times his base strength because my opinion" when it can't be more than a minor additive bump in the face of Force users of comparable power in rage not breaking necks or severing heads with Force chokes under a Force rage.

So, basically, you're saying his anger is so great, his amp is dozens of times normal because unsubstantiated reasons? :hmm

That's cute given general precedent doesn't support such a conclusion in the first place~

Pretty clear he has to come back into Vaapad clown. He slips out of it explicitly twice and implicitly a third time

Explicit

Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from alpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him.

- Revenge of the Sith

His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.

- Revenge of the Sith

Implicit

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source. Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain.

- Revenge of the Sith

Now the second time without the loop

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

"Ahhh—" Palpatine's roar above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair. The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge. "I... can't. I give up. I... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender."

Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease—"

"Wait—" Skywalker seized his lightsaber arm with desperate strength. "Don't kill him—you can't just kill him, Master—"

"Yes, I can," Mace said, grim and certain. "I have to."

"You came to arrest him. He has to stand trial—"

"A trial would be a joke. He controls the courts. He controls the Senate—"

"So are you going to kill all them, too? Like he said you would?"

Mace yanked his arm free. "He's too dangerous to be left alive. If you could have taken Dooku alive, would you have?"

Skywalker's face swept itself clean of emotion. "That was different—"

Mace turned toward the cringing, beaten Sith Lord. "You can explain the difference after he's dead." He raised his lightsaber.

"I need him alive!" Skywalker shouted. "I need him to save Padme!"

Mace thought blankly, Why? And moved his lightsaber toward the fallen Chancellor. Before he could follow through on his stroke, a sudden arc of blue plasma sheared through his wrist and his hand tumbled away with his lightsaber still in it and Palpatine roared back to his feet and lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on.

He had been so intent on Palpatine's shatterpoint that he'd never thought to look for Anakin's. Dark lightning blasted away his universe. He fell forever.

Anakin Skywalker knelt in the rain. He was looking at a hand. The hand had brown skin. The hand held a lightsaber. The hand had a charred oval of tissue where it should have been attached to an arm.

- Revenge of the Sith

As MACE stares at ANAKIN in shock, PALPATINE springs to life.

The full force of Palpatine's powerful Bolts blasts MACE. He attempts to deflect them with his one good hand, but the force is too great. As blue rays engulf his body, he is flung out the window and falls twenty stories to his death. No more screams. No more moans. PALPATINE lowers his arm.

- Scirpt from Revenge of the Sith

Makes it pretty easy to discern, without the loop, Windu wasn't passively and harmlessly reflecting Sidious' lightning

Ergo, he wasn't in vapaad after his hand was chopped off and shocked by Anakin's betrayal.

Top it off with the fact Lucas stated only Windu and Yoda could contend with Sidious? And the need for an amp and Sidious somehow holding back making those words lose any actual meaning? On top of the fact Lucas' words were spoken without any kind of qualifier like "but only under certain conditions"?

Makes this pretty cut and dry buddy~

 

[Salavtore]

Nah.

 

[FrancoGYFV]

You're not saying it explicitly, but your ignorance leads to the implicit "this amp has to be a multiplier of several dozen times his base strength because my opinion" when it can't be more than a minor additive bump in the face of Force users of comparable power in rage not breaking necks or severing heads with Force chokes under a Force rage.
So, basically, you're saying his anger is so great, his amp is dozens of times normal because unsubstantiated reasons? :hmm

That's cute given general precedent doesn't support such a conclusion in the first place~

Pretty clear he has to come back into Vaapad clown. He slips out of it explicitly twice and implicitly a third time

Explicit

Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from alpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him.

- Revenge of the Sith

His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.

- Revenge of the Sith

Implicit

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source. Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain.

- Revenge of the Sith

Now the second time without the loop

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

"Ahhh—" Palpatine's roar above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair. The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge. "I... can't. I give up. I... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender."

Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease—"

"Wait—" Skywalker seized his lightsaber arm with desperate strength. "Don't kill him—you can't just kill him, Master—"

"Yes, I can," Mace said, grim and certain. "I have to."

"You came to arrest him. He has to stand trial—"

"A trial would be a joke. He controls the courts. He controls the Senate—"

"So are you going to kill all them, too? Like he said you would?"

Mace yanked his arm free. "He's too dangerous to be left alive. If you could have taken Dooku alive, would you have?"

Skywalker's face swept itself clean of emotion. "That was different—"

Mace turned toward the cringing, beaten Sith Lord. "You can explain the difference after he's dead." He raised his lightsaber.

"I need him alive!" Skywalker shouted. "I need him to save Padme!"

Mace thought blankly, Why? And moved his lightsaber toward the fallen Chancellor. Before he could follow through on his stroke, a sudden arc of blue plasma sheared through his wrist and his hand tumbled away with his lightsaber still in it and Palpatine roared back to his feet and lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on.

He had been so intent on Palpatine's shatterpoint that he'd never thought to look for Anakin's. Dark lightning blasted away his universe. He fell forever.

Anakin Skywalker knelt in the rain. He was looking at a hand. The hand had brown skin. The hand held a lightsaber. The hand had a charred oval of tissue where it should have been attached to an arm.

- Revenge of the Sith

As MACE stares at ANAKIN in shock, PALPATINE springs to life.

The full force of Palpatine's powerful Bolts blasts MACE. He attempts to deflect them with his one good hand, but the force is too great. As blue rays engulf his body, he is flung out the window and falls twenty stories to his death. No more screams. No more moans. PALPATINE lowers his arm.

- Scirpt from Revenge of the Sith

Makes it pretty easy to discern, without the loop, Windu wasn't passively and harmlessly reflecting Sidious' lightning

Ergo, he wasn't in vapaad after his hand was chopped off and shocked by Anakin's betrayal.

Top it off with the fact Lucas stated only Windu and Yoda could contend with Sidious? And the need for an amp and Sidious somehow holding back making those words lose any actual meaning? On top of the fact Lucas' words were spoken without any kind of qualifier like "but only under certain conditions"?

Makes this pretty cut and dry buddy~

No, but because the circumstances lead anyone to think that way. Mace's level is roughtly around Dooku, who is so absurdly below Palpatine that it's not even funny.

No, its not "because unsubstatiated reason", but because Mace's love for the Republic was on that level. It's not me who is saying this, it's him:

Anakin Skywalker has nine words for him that shred his heart, burn its pieces, and feed him its smoking ashes. Palpatine is Sidious. The Chancellor is the Sith Lord. He doesn't even hear the words, not really; their true meaning is too large for his mind gather in all at once. They mean that all he's done, and all that has been done to him— That all the Order has accomplished, all it has suffered— All the Galaxy itself hasgone through, all the years of suffering and slaughter, the death of entire planets— Has all been for nothing. Because it was all done to save the Republic. Which was already gone. Which had already fallen. The corpse of which had been defended only by a Jedi Order that was now under the command of a Dark Lord of the Sith. Mace Windu's entire existence has become crystal so shot-through with flaws that the hammer of those nine words has crushed him to sand.

- Revenge of The Sith

And every other quote you posted just support my point: without the aid of Vaapad's power-up at the time, Mace couldn't do jack shit against Palpatine. He was totally dependent on it, because withouth chanelling the power of the Dark Side through it, he had no chance against the Sith Lord.

About that last big quote, let's see it again:

Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face. Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—" This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade

- Revenge of The Sith

Why the hell specify that it was beyond Vaapad, if it wasn't a major factor in the fight? Oh, and if he wasn't using Vaapad, why it was "beyond it"?

Also, let's say that Mace is as strong, if not stronger than Palpatine in a daily basis. So how strong does this make Anakin?!

This is Anakin Skywalker. The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace. He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it

- Revenge of The Sith

And what about this? Is Ventress on Sidious' level too?

Mace Windu had to use all his skills to defeat the dark side fighter Asajj Ventress.

- The Official Star Wars Fact File 108

And Lucas' words mean jack shit when they make no sense at all. Anakin was able to make The Son and The Daughter look like two puppies when he needed to, and Lucas said this:

Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful," he says. "But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn't what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You'll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.

- George Lucas

So this means that The Son and The Daughter, who could crush the fabric of reality itself are not even 2 times stronger than canon Sidious?

 

[Salavtore]

Question, how close to canon are the books and the movies?

 

[The_Everlasting]

Entirely canon as long as they line up with what's on screen.

 

[The_Everlasting]

And Lucas' words mean jack shit when they make no sense at all. Anakin was able to make The Son and The Daughter look like two puppies when he needed to, and Lucas said this:

Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful," he says. "But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn't what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You'll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.

- George Lucas

So this means that The Son and The Daughter, who could crush the fabric of reality itself are not even 2 times stronger than canon Sidious?

Anakin was heavily amped by tapping into the power of Mortis at that moment, and as a result that example isn't valid.

 

[Salavtore]

Entirely canon as long as they line up with what's on screen.

Thanks

 

[FrancoGYFV]

And Lucas' words mean jack shit when they make no sense at all. Anakin was able to make The Son and The Daughter look like two puppies when he needed to, and Lucas said this:

Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful," he says. "But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn't what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You'll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.

- George Lucas

So this means that The Son and The Daughter, who could crush the fabric of reality itself are not even 2 times stronger than canon Sidious?

Anakin was heavily amped by tapping into the power of Mortis at that moment, and as a result that example isn't valid.

It's not something that anyone could do, only The Chosen One as stated by The Father. It's really hard to believe Lucas' words in that matter, or at all. The other quote that I posted (Anakin being "The strongest" and "The fastest" is also Word of God, and by no means he is > Yoda.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

No, but because the circumstances lead anyone to think that way. Mace's level is roughtly around Dooku, who is so absurdly below Palpatine that it's not even funny.

No, Dooku's the clown that gets choked out from half way across the galaxy

Windu's the one that survives the Force Lightning where the fall kills him.

No, its not "because unsubstatiated reason", but because Mace's love for the Republic was on that level. It's not me who is saying this, it's him:

It is

Or are you going to quantify the difference between Savage's rage and Windu's for me?

I'd love to see numbers put to how mad someone can get :lmao

And every other quote you posted just support my point: without the aid of Vaapad's power-up at the time, Mace couldn't do jack shit against Palpatine. He was totally dependent on it, because withouth chanelling the power of the Dark Side through it, he had no chance against the Sith Lord.

They don't, but I get your confusion.

You're not used to anything more than simple thought for this hobby :maybe

A loss is a loss and nothing of value can be derived from the feats within

Just that's not the case and the fact Windu's body wasn't reduced to ashes and even negated enough of the Lightning to have it be so the fall killed him is a feat of amazing raw power.


Why the hell specify that it was beyond Vaapad, if it wasn't a major factor in the fight? Oh, and if he wasn't using Vaapad, why it was "beyond it"?

You confuse significance for massive. Nothing about the quote you left makes it necessary Windu is dwarfed by a substantial gap.

What reason do I have to believe anything going on in this fight is anything more than an additive to minor multiplicative boost?

Also, let's say that Mace is as strong, if not stronger than Palpatine in a daily basis. So how strong does this make Anakin?!

My, my~

So frustrated :maybe

The quote holds merit, but isn't without flaws. It's pretty obvious that Anakin's no Yoda and he's not the strongest Jedi of his day.

Arguably the strongest Jedi doesn't make him stronger or as strong as Yoda or Windu *shrugs*

And don't put words into my mouth clown, I never said Windu was equal to Sidious

I'm just not blind to the fact he possesses a decent fraction of his raw power by feats


And what about this? Is Ventress on Sidious' level too?

Why are you giving me C canon when G canon accolades are worth more on the scale of canon?


And Lucas' words mean jack shit when they make no sense at all. Anakin was able to make The Son and The Daughter look like two puppies when he needed to, and Lucas said this:

Translation "I don't like what the highest tier of canon has to offer when it contradicts my wanking of a geriatric" :maybe

That, and Anakin was drawing on Mortis, a nexus where all Force power in the universe converges upon. His feat wasn't a typical showing and he fails to replicate it the rest of the Trilogy of episodes.


So this means that The Son and The Daughter, who could crush the fabric of reality itself are not even 2 times stronger than canon Sidious?

Why are you bringing up power level nonsense?

Or is farmer with shotgun now continent level because Piccolo destroyed the moon?

Linear power levels are nonsense, and that's all what Lucas' quote amounts to there.

 

[FrancoGYFV]

No, but because the circumstances lead anyone to think that way. Mace's level is roughtly around Dooku, who is so absurdly below Palpatine that it's not even funny. No, Dooku's the clown that gets choked out from half way across the galaxy
Windu's the one that survives the Force Lightning where the fall kills him.

No, its not "because unsubstatiated reason", but because Mace's love for the Republic was on that level. It's not me who is saying this, it's him:

It is

Or are you going to quantify the difference between Savage's rage and Windu's for me?

I'd love to see numbers put to how mad someone can get :lmao

And every other quote you posted just support my point: without the aid of Vaapad's power-up at the time, Mace couldn't do jack shit against Palpatine. He was totally dependent on it, because withouth chanelling the power of the Dark Side through it, he had no chance against the Sith Lord.

They don't, but I get your confusion.

You're not used to anything more than simple thought for this hobby :maybe

A loss is a loss and nothing of value can be derived from the feats within

Just that's not the case and the fact Windu's body wasn't reduced to ashes and even negated enough of the Lightning to have it be so the fall killed him is a feat of amazing raw power.


Why the hell specify that it was beyond Vaapad, if it wasn't a major factor in the fight? Oh, and if he wasn't using Vaapad, why it was "beyond it"?

You confuse significance for massive. Nothing about the quote you left makes it necessary Windu is dwarfed by a substantial gap.

What reason do I have to believe anything going on in this fight is anything more than an additive to minor multiplicative boost?

Also, let's say that Mace is as strong, if not stronger than Palpatine in a daily basis. So how strong does this make Anakin?!

My, my~

So frustrated :maybe

The quote holds merit, but isn't without flaws. It's pretty obvious that Anakin's no Yoda and he's not the strongest Jedi of his day.

Arguably the strongest Jedi doesn't make him stronger or as strong as Yoda or Windu *shrugs*

And don't put words into my mouth clown, I never said Windu was equal to Sidious

I'm just not blind to the fact he possesses a decent fraction of his raw power by feats


And what about this? Is Ventress on Sidious' level too?

Why are you giving me C canon when G canon accolades are worth more on the scale of canon?


And Lucas' words mean jack shit when they make no sense at all. Anakin was able to make The Son and The Daughter look like two puppies when he needed to, and Lucas said this:

Translation "I don't like what the highest tier of canon has to offer when it contradicts my wanking of a geriatric" :maybe

That, and Anakin was drawing on Mortis, a nexus where all Force power in the universe converges upon. His feat wasn't a typical showing and he fails to replicate it the rest of the Trilogy of episodes.


So this means that The Son and The Daughter, who could crush the fabric of reality itself are not even 2 times stronger than canon Sidious?

Why are you bringing up power level nonsense?

Or is farmer with shotgun now continent level because Piccolo destroyed the moon?

Linear power levels are nonsense, and that's all what Lucas' quote amounts to there.

No, Dooku's the clown that gets choked out from half way across the galaxy

Windu's the one that survives the Force Lightning where the fall kills him.

Mace is the clown that claims that Anakin is stronger than him.

Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger.

- Mace Windu, Revenge of The Sith

It is

Or are you going to quantify the difference between Savage's rage and Windu's for me?

I'd love to see numbers put to how mad someone can get :lmao

Savage got enraged because he was getting his ass stomped, Windu was enraged because his very reason to live was just entirely crushed under his feet.

They don't, but I get your confusion.

You're not used to anything more than simple thought for this hobby :maybe

A loss is a loss and nothing of value can be derived from the feats withi

Just that's not the case and the fact Windu's body wasn't reduced to ashes and even negated enough of the Lightning to have it be so the fall killed him is a feat of amazing raw power.

So the fact that every time Windu got outclassed in the duel was at the exact same moment he wasn't amping himself wth Vaapad... is a coincidence? How convenient.

Of course is a amazing feat of raw power, I'm not debating that, I'm saying that he couldn't do it without the proper amp that he had.

You confuse significance for massive. Nothing about the quote you left makes it necessary Windu is dwarfed by a substantial gap.

What reason do I have to believe anything going on in this fight is anything more than an additive to minor multiplicative boost?

Vaapad was cited during the entire fight, multiple times. Oh, sorry, it's probably just a coincidence as well.

My, my~

So frustrated :maybe

The quote holds merit, but isn't without flaws. It's pretty obvious that Anakin's no Yoda and he's not the strongest Jedi of his day.

Arguably the strongest Jedi doesn't make him stronger or as strong as Yoda or Windu *shrugs*

And don't put words into my mouth clown, I never said Windu was equal to Sidious

I'm just not blind to the fact he possesses a decent fraction of his raw power by feats

Just... what? So the "Word of God" is invalid this time... because reasons?

Why are you giving me C canon when G canon accolades are worth more on the scale of canon?

And I am the one confused? LMAO.

C and G canon doesn't even exist anymore.

Translation "I don't like what the highest tier of canon has to offer when it contradicts my wanking of a geriatric" :maybe

That, and Anakin was drawing on Mortis, where nexus where all Force power in the universe converges upon. His feat wasn't a typical showing and he fails to replicate it the rest of the Trilogy of episodes.

So Ahsoka or Obi-Wan could just beat the hell out of them as well, just because the Nexus was there? The Daughter and The Son also drew out power of the Nexus, this isn't exclusive to Anakin.

Why are you bringing up power level nonsense?

Or is farmer with shotgun now continent level because Piccolo destroyed the moon?

Linear power levels are nonsense, and that's all what Lucas' quote amounts to there.

Just... what?

Power levels have nothing to do with this: Dragon Ball has system of power level that is not linear. You can't say that X with a PL of 10 is two times as strong as Y who has 5.

But "twice"? That's not even about power levels, it's a direct statement that Anakin could've been... well, TWICE as strong as Palpatine, which is clear BS.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

Mace is the clown that claims that Anakin is stronger than him.

Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger.

- Mace Windu, Revenge of The Sith

Arguably doesn't mean "definitively"

Savage got enraged because he was getting his ass stomped, Windu was enraged because his very reason to live was just entirely crushed under his feet.

Let me breathe buddy, you're killing me here :skully

What about any of this rebuttal was an objective metric that can accurately gauge anger from person to person?

Emotion in general is a subjective human experience. What sets off your thin skinned SJW won't even cause a Marine to flinch. Nothing you've offered can quantify Windu's rage better than Savage's. Emotions can't be put to numbers, not the way you're trying to bullshit

So the fact that every time Windu got outclassed in the duel was at the exact same moment he wasn't amping himself wth Vaapad... is a coincidence? How convenient.

Nothing convenient about it. I'm not arguing for absolute parity, just that he can contend.

Of course is a amazing feat of raw power, I'm not debating that, I'm saying that he couldn't do it without the proper amp that he had.

You're doing a rather poor show of it my friend

What with silliness like actually trying to compare emotion response from person to person and suggesting Windu's the ultimate rage o holic of Star Wars... you're just a corpse I get to continue to poke for my amusement~

He wasn't amped, its something he's capable of replicating or near replicating on his own

Vaapad was cited during the entire fight, multiple times. Oh, sorry, it's probably just a coincidence as well.

You're not really good at this whole "addressing the core of my post" thing

What about Vaapad seeing continued use in the figth suggests massive multipliers? Especially, when in disuse due to distraction or the like, he does just fine on his own merits.

Just... what? So the "Word of God" is invalid this time... because reasons?

That's not word of god, that's a character statement hidden as narrative exposition. Its from the novel IIRC, right? Why's it hold more weight than Lucas' direct word?

Omniscient narrative out of universe is the king of all accloades.

C and G canon doesn't even exist anymore.

They do as far as evaluating Legends go given feats between Disney and Legends are so disparate.

And given vs battles wiki basically copies the OBD of NarutoForums, my home forum, nigh verbatim on how they treat Star Wars?

They still use the old canon tiers for Legends my friend :maybe

So Ahsoka or Obi-Wan could just beat the hell out of them as well, just because the Nexus was there? The Daughter and The Son also drew out power of the Nexus, this isn't exclusive to Anakin.

So Kenobi's exposition and telling Anakin to just draw on the nexus is just going to be ignored as the reason Anakin suceeded at all? His being the chosen one is the sole reason he could draw on the entirety of the Force as completely as he could.

Just... what?

Power levels have nothing to do with this:

Once more, I sympathize with your confusion

As we've previously established, your thoughts on this hobby are, at best, simplistic

The aesthetic difference between random numbers and percentages must be incredibly overwhelming :maybe

I assure you though, they're one and the same kind of metric of measurement.

 

[FrancoGYFV]

Arguably doesn't mean "definitively"

"Arguably" also doesn't mean "I can beat the living crap out of him". In the fight with Palpatine, Anakin couldn't even see the two of them fighting clearly, they were just a blur for him.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once. The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine? Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear.

- Revenge of The Sith

Let me breathe buddy, you're killing me here :skully

What about any of this rebuttal was an objective metric that can accurately gauge anger from person to person?

Emotion in general is a subjective human experience. What sets off your thin skinned SJW won't even cause a Marine to flinch. Nothing you've offered can quantify Windu's rage better than Savage's. Emotions can't be put to numbers, not the way you're trying to bullshit

Emotions can't be put to numbers, but his rage was clearly bigger than a simple "wow, I got my ass kicked, hate that jerk". Besides, Windu is brutally better than Savage at controlling the force, and knows how to use Vaapad.

Nothing convenient about it. I'm not arguing for absolute parity, just that he can contend.

No, nothing at all, it's just a coincidence that the moment he stops using Vaapad, he gets outclasses.

You're doing a rather poor show of it my friend

What with silliness like actually trying to compare emotion response from person to person and suggesting Windu's the ultimate rage o holic of Star Wars... you're just a corpse I get to continue to poke for my amusement~

Gotta admit, I lol'd at the "Rage o Holic of Star Wars".

I'm not "trying" to compare emotion response: the books do that for me. Mace was completely devastating, there's no arguing about it.

You're not really good at this whole "addressing the core of my post" thing

What about Vaapad seeing continued use in the figth suggests massive multipliers? Especially, when in disuse due to distraction or the like, he does just fine on his own merits.

Just being used in the fight would mean nothing - but every time it says that the power chanelled through Vaapad, or that Vaapad amped him, or whatever. Multiple times it's stated that Vaapad can amp the user.

That's not word of god, that's a character statement hidden as narrative exposition. Its from the novel IIRC, right? Why's it hold more weight than Lucas' direct word?

Omniscient narrative out of universe is the king of all accloades.

So... the narrator now is a character, and that was a statement from said "mysterious character". Wow, that's a new one for me.

For the same reason that no one even consider the possibility of Luffy being as fast as the CP9 when he met Usopp, when Oda said that Kuro and the CP9 had the same speed.

They do as far as evaluating Legends go given feats between Disney and Legends are so disparate.

And given vs battles wiki basically copies the OBD of NarutoForums, my home forum, nigh verbatim on how they treat Star Wars?

They still use the old canon tiers for Legends my friend :maybe

That doesn't even make any sense.

Once more, I sympathize with your confusio

As we've previously established, your thoughts on this hobby are, at best, simplistic

The aesthetic difference between random numbers and percentages must be incredibly overwhelming :maybe

I assure you though, they're one and the same kind of metric of measurement.

No, they're not.

Goku claims that his speed multiplies when he uses the Kaioken. Therefore, if he is Mach 10 in base, with 4x Kaioken he is Mach 40.

In the Daizenshuu, his power-level is also linearly multiplied by the Kaioken. Does this mean that speed is linear with power levels?

No.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with ChaosTheory123 and The Everlasting. However, we are trying to keep a mostly friendly tone in this wiki, so please try to be polite to each other. Thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, do not quote long posts. It spams the page with unnecessary text.

 

[CinCameron20]

STOP. CLICKING. THE. QUOTE. BUTTON.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Please immediately and permanently do stop doing so. It is against the front page rules to spam the page with long quoted texts.

 

[FrancoGYFV]

Well, whatever. I give up, just let it be.

 

[Antvasima]

I will close this thread then.