Lupin III: Gambling Update

[Detective_Blizzard]

Howdy folks, welcome back to your irregularly scheduled program of updating a famous verse you never herd of! On today's episode of "Blizzard's Bad Decisions" we have the Lupin III Pachinko games and the related media to them. The games utilize the TMS Versions of the characters with it being animated and approved by them, and because of the fact that the franchise composites itself on anything relating to TMS that means these are viable for usage.
TLDR: It's canon, only abilities, powers, and stat upgrades need to be approved so there's no need to be familiar with the verse (Hopefully we can finish this in less than a month) Apparently there are still issues regarding what is and isn't canon for some, staff input on this situation would be greatly appreciated. Mostly resolved in another thread. Thank you

Due to the nature of these feats, many of the clips used will have varying qualities since it's gambling machines and all of it's source material is scattered among countless random oddities and can be subject to the scenes skipping themselves. What will be qualified as a legitimate feat is if they characters are portrayed doing/using something themselves and it's not considered the machine doing it itself (For example, it's very common for the machines just to put fire particles all over the screen. This wouldn't count as fire resistance as the machine is creating dramatic effects).

Due to the large number of different Pachinko machines, I will not be listing out each individual reference for the feats in order to save space (And make this look somewhat readable) and will only do so for substantial things. The games that will be used is the 'Zenigata is the Main Character' game series and 'Resurrection of Mamo' to start off with, any others will be mentioned next to the brief usage of it and will have closer examination on a future revision.


Entire Main Cast - These are for feats that apply to everyone, either because they all accomplish these feats or due to everyone being relative enough to qualify it

Non-Physical Interaction and 4th Wall Breaking - Characters from the entire cast (even the sword) are repeatedly shown to literally break the 4th Wall and interact with their environment with said ability, which is actually consistent with the franchise since it's practically a stable for the characters to interact in such a way, such as the Lupin's famous examples of him shooting his own title screens (He does this in moments other than the openings, though it's typically in eyecatchers during the episodes) or Zenigata and Lupin directing mentioning the audience in Episode 100 of Part 2

• Optional Addition - Give this to everyone in the verse, I've seen a lot of the side cast interacting in this way with even Nyx having his own moment so it's not unreasonable to argue just everyone in the verse has these traits. (If Fujiko can do it, SO CAN YOU)

Resistance to Extreme Cold and Cosmic Radiation with Self Sustenance (Type 1) as optional equipment - The cast is capable of surviving and swimming in space, specifically the exosphere, with nothing but their normal attire and a bowl on their heads.

Elasticity Toon Force - Capable of surviving being flattened (Other characters pop up for this event but this is the only on-screen examples I can find of it working), Zenigata can survive being deflated

Dimensional Travel and Immersion - The cast are capable of physically breaking into a digital world

Resistance to Transmutation - The entire cast is unaffected when the surrounding area gets transmuted into gold including the moon

Resistance to Fire Manipulation - Characters are shown completely unaffected by magical fire Even when the blood moon shows and Fujiko gets something cool it's for a general ability

More evidence supporting relativistic speed - Honestly the verse should just be Relativistic at this rate, even if the calcs haven't ever been accepted there are more than enough examples of it to solidify the idea that the rating is accurate, so I prepose we remove the 'possibly' category and just make everyone Relativistic in combat speed so we don't have a cluttered mess for a speed section.

Zenigata - As the star of his own 4 games, our good ol Pops here has quite a selection of abilities to utilize thanks to him being depicted as biblically accurate

Resistance to Electricity Manipulation - Can survive being stuck by natural lighting and can keep going like nothing happened

Metal Manipulation, Thread Manipulation, and Danmaku - Zenigata is capable of generating handcuffs and sending them out to restrain objects/people, with him even being capable of effecting the text on screen. He's capable of sending them out in multiple ways such as through danmaku rope

Social Influencing (Instigating Fear) - Zenigata is capable of instilling so much fear, that he can make Lupin pass out (Also kinda works on Goemon to a lesser degree)

Fire Manipulation - Zenigata is capable of generating fire through sheer force of will, with the heat extending to his baton. Can apply this effect to his rope to create flaming improvised weapons out of objects

Toon Force - Capable of staying afloat in mid-air, being able to semi-fly/float similarly to how Lupin can even in space. Can jump from outside the frames in order to re-enter the fight.

Optional Flight via a Jetpack and Plane

Optional Planetary Information Analysis and Clairvoyance - Using ICPO Tech, Zenigata is capable of tracking and finding people from across the entire planet at a highly precise level (The End). He's even capable of tracking people located in the exosphere

Vehicle Mastery, Water Walking, and Surface Scaling - Zenigata has killer skateboard skillz, capable of biking up vertically what appears to be the Eiffel Tower, can fly a plane, can ride his bike on water

Transformation, Statistics Amplification, Sound Manipulation and Large Size (Type 0) - By drinking Muscle Z, Zenigata is capable of transforming into....... The Infraggable Krunk from Dexters Lab?!?!?!, creating an earth shattering scream as all his physical stats dramatically improve!

Weapon Mastery - Shown to be skilled in swordsmanship

Zenigata-Robo - In the 'Zenigata is the Main Character' game series, Zenigata creates a robotic mech named Zenigatarobo. It'd classify as optional equipment/prep time and has a few abilities of its own.

• Large Size (Type 1) - Dats a huge robot
• Energy Manipulation - Is capable of firing energy beams strong enough to create island sized explosions
  • Lupin surviving this will be considered an outlier unless we accept this alongside the later mentioned Weather Negation as viable
• Heat Manipulation, Limited Electricity Manipulation, and Limited Smoke Manipulaion alongside a resistance to all of it - The Zenigata-Robo passively generates these simply by powering up
• Explosion Manipulation and Limited Ressurection - Zenigata-Robo is capable of firing missiles from it's mouth and reviving itself if it sustains too much damage
  • Note: I've never actually seen the revive animation, however once successful Zenigata-Robo will enter Super Arrest Rush
• Information Analysis - Has a full 3d hud that shows the surroundings as well as the status of the robot
• Hive Mind - Has an orbital satellite to shoot lasers down onto enemies
• Flight and Instinctive Actions - Capable of flying and operating without a pilot
• Awakened Power, Transformation, Light Manipulation, Probability Manipulation, and all abilities and stats dramatically increased - Zenigata-Robo is capable of entering Super Arrest Rush which dramatically increases Zenigata's odds of success to the point of fighting and overpowering game overs alongside creating new probabilities, empowers all of his abilities and stats, and causes the robot to glow golden with a rainbow aura.

Lupin III: - He's the one, everybody's waiting for! Scream for him, a romantic modern hero. We need a hero, someone we can look up to. HE'S A SUPER-HERO!!!

Lupin-Robo - Lupin has his own version of the Zenigata-Robo in the 'Zenigata is the Main Character' series, scales to the other robot and should have all of it's basic abilities including Super Arrest Rush but without the orbital satellite. Only difference is that Lupinrobo can be Summoned

Optional Magic Reflection - By utilizing a magic mirror, Lupin is capable of reflecting magical attacks back at the opponent

Additional Optional Fire Manipulation alongside Enhanced Fire Resistance - With a magic artifact, he's capable of generating pillars of fire capable of instantly burning Mamo as well as withstanding the heat

Probability Manipulation - He is shown to alter chances and odds in a variety of ways

Optional Electricity Manipulation - By using two metal rods, Lupin was able to send electrical strikes towards his opponent

Negation of Weather Manipulation, Illusion Creation, and Lightning Manipulation - Lupin, through sheer force of will, was capable of completely destroying Mamo's catastrophe and his Illusionary Head

• Alternatively, we treat this as an legit AP feat and we would need calculations made for Lupin does this alongside Lupin surviving this explosion which would massively bump everyone in the verse's tier

Information Analysis and Superhuman Precision - Despite never being told and only having a brief interaction with him, Lupin was able to figure out Oda Nobunaga was a robot and was able to hit a specific weak point that couldn't be seen that dismantled him (Message to God)

Additional Optional Adhesive Manipulation - Can fly a remote control helicopter which has adhesive firearms (Erased Lupin)

Resistance and Negation of Time Manipulation - BEHOLD, MY ANTI-SLY COOPER-INATOR-uh, I mean, Lupin is capable of resisting and combating against Mamo's temporal abilities, which can pause, rewind, resume, and even accelerate it (Side note, would Mamo get a layer of Time Manipulation due to the fact that he can out counter Lupin's countering?)

Resistance to Telepathy and a few alterations to Lupin's resistances - Ok, so this one is a bit more complex due to the fact that I'm using resources outside of the Pachinko machines. Firstly the resistance to telepathy comes from him being able to shut his brain off against an opponent who could predict his actions though thought reading alongside his already credited resistance to Mind Manipulation "Countered Rasputin's mind reading by turning off his mind". He should get an Immunity to Dream Manipulation however because in The Mystery of Mamo movie proper, it's directly stated that Lupin III doesn't dream and that it's just an empty void in that section of his head. Something which Mamo, the smartest thing in the world, says is a sign of a complete idiot or an absolute God. I won't show the clip for it due to the fact that the entire scene is one big epilepsy warning, however any of the knowledgeable members will know the scene and anyone who wants to personally find it can see it at the 59:00 mark of the movie. Lupin's current Dream Manipulation resistance should instead be moved to his Sleep Manipulation resistance (and upgrade it to a full resistance) alongside a Memory Manipulation and Possession resistance due to Wataru Uraga's cipher not being a normal dream but instead implants the creator's own dreams into other people, which alters their mind to turn them into personifications of the creator.

Jigen - Old reliable doesn't get much in these games, thanks to his consistency in nature. Though he's not out of complete luck yet since his profile still lacks things common for him and he'll get more in The Modern Update

Optional Flight - Can fly a plane

Optional Limited Rope Manipulation via grappling hook gun

Pure Skill - This isn't even a power, this is just a pure flex that needs to be respected. Could also be argued as relevant to the Relativistic Section above since Jigen is spinning somewhat in tandem with the lasers

Goemon - Wait a minute..... Lupin and Zenigata have reached Island Level and have dethroned the Honored One from his throne, I MUST BUFF GOEMON AGAIN!!!!!

Easily the biggest alteration in the verse: Goemon will be upgraded to Moon Level for his blade's potency and durability with planetary range on it, this feat is found in 'Resurrection of Mamo'. There is supporting evidence for this as the Detective Conan crossover is canon for the Lupin Verse since it's not only approved but directly made by TMS, which make Goemon doing this consistent. The only thing in the verse that gets buffed by this is Hawk due to the Zantetsuken being a god-tier weapon that has no direct equal, Hawk scaling to it however isn't an outlier thanks to additional information from the series that, while not technically confirmed thanks to the final instalment being in limbo, gives us all the information we need.

Hawk, alongside Bincam and Yael, are all connected by a mysterious benefactor (sorry for the low quality, was the best image I could find for that source) who is connected to all the evil in the world with an immeasurable amount of wealth and influence...... with us already knowing the man thanks to Jigen's Gravestone directly showing us that it's Mamo, who fits this description like a T! This is important because Mamo is connected to every advancement in human history, which would include several, if not every single variation of the Zantetsuken's creation! While the blade's origin has been altered time and time again, it's typically always been tied to some scientific advancement that gets lost to time, most notably the Alchemist Scroll in Episode 0 which was a formula made to create Zantetsuken steel that turned the tide of World War 2 before being lost. Because of this, and the fact that Mamo already has a history of giving this type of metal to his underlings, there is an absurdly high chance that Hawk's axes are made of similar metal which grant them such absurd statistics.
(Note to knowledgeable members - Should we change Hawk's regeneration over time with the resurrection methods that Mamo used for this reason, since he was confirmed dead this would lead to strong evidence that he is in fact resurrecting instead of simply regenerating)

Surface Scaling - Capable of running up vertically what appears to be the Eiffel Tower

Limited Elemental Manipulation and Resistance to Lava - Alright, to start off the Isekai Manga feats we have Goemon using his blade to utilize his surrounding elements in order to deliver special attacks that-huh? You're telling this isn't the Isekai Manga and Goemon has been doing this shit a year before it even happened...... WELL THEN! Jokes aside, his elemental manipulation is only applicable to elements that the blade is capable of resisting/interacting with, which will be addressed in a future revision.

Fujiko Mine: Alright, it's Fujiko's time to shine, let me just check my record of feats gathered from over 5 separate games. Honestly the Fujiko profile should just be dele-

Fujiko: BANKAI: Senbonzakura Kageyoshi - By utilizing custom roses, she can Summon countless petals to conceal herself, Barrier against attacks, as well as Danmaku thorns.

Higher Durability - Wears bulletproof attire underneath her clothing (Last Gold)

Agree: @Homie890, @Emerald (Explicitly agrees with the storm feat being AP), @Stefano4444 (Neutral about AP), @OrangeFR, @Tonygameman

Disagree: @DimeUhDozen

Neutral:

 

[Homie890]

The only thing in the verse that gets buffed by this is Hawk

Damn,he is badass.

agree.

 

[Emerald]

Non-Physical Interaction and 4th Wall Breaking - Characters from the entire cast (even the sword) are repeatedly shown to literally break the 4th Wall and interact with their environment with said ability, which is actually consistent with the franchise since it's practically a stable for the characters to interact in such a way, such as the Lupin's famous examples of him shooting his own title screens (He does this in moments other than the openings, though it's typically in eyecatchers during the episodes) or Zenigata and Lupin directing mentioning the audience in Episode 100 of Part 2

• Optional Addition - Give this to everyone in the verse, I've seen a lot of the side cast interacting in this way with even Nyx having his own moment so it's not unreasonable to argue just everyone in the verse has these traits. (If Fujiko can do it, SO CAN YOU)

Does this qualify as NPI? I thought it was just 4th Wall Breaking

Resistance to Extreme Cold and Cosmic Radiation with Self Sustenance (Type 1) as optional equipment - The cast is capable of surviving and swimming in space, specifically the exosphere, with nothing but their normal attire and a bowl on their heads.

You can just list this as Space Survival

Negation of Weather Manipulation, Illusion Creation, and Lightning Manipulation - Lupin, through sheer force of will, was capable of completely destroying Mamo's catastrophe and his Illusionary Head

• Alternatively, we treat this as an legit AP feat and we would need calculations made for Lupin does this alongside Lupin surviving this explosion which would massively bump everyone in the verse's tier

Seems more like AP ngl

Pure Skill - This isn't even a power, this is just a pure flex that needs to be respected. Could also be argued as relevant to the Relativistic Section above since Jigen is spinning somewhat in tandem with the lasers

Homie didn't have to flex that hard


Eitherway, I agree with the rest

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Does this qualify as NPI? I thought it was just 4th Wall Breaking

NPI - Users can both see and interact with intangible, or non-corporeal, abstract, and nonexistent objects or life-forms and entities, allowing them to make physical contact and possibly cause harm.

While you could argue that the text itself is physical based on looks alone, it is meant to be game text which has also been shown to just be translucent at times (currently trying to find a specific example of this rn), them being able to break the glass on the screen or breaking the scenery would count as those fundamentally shouldn't be physically possible

You can just list this as Space Survival

Unironically forgot this was there, every profile I've seen doesn't use it LOL

Seems more like AP ngl

I 100% agree with this, but since the verse isn't accepted anywhere near currently I presented it as an ability first. Gonna need to get someone to calculate that and the Robot Cannon to figure out where the new standards are assuming it's accepted as AP

 

[Homie890]

Pure Skill - This isn't even a power, this is just a pure flex that needs to be respected. Could also be argued as relevant to the Relativistic Section above since Jigen is spinning somewhat in tandem with the lasers

Dang,that's epic.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Does this qualify as NPI? I thought it was just 4th Wall Breaking

While you could argue that the text itself is physical based on looks alone, it is meant to be game text which has also been shown to just be translucent at times (currently trying to find a specific example of this rn)

Found the example, the 9 and 1 at the end are both completely see through

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

You can just list this as Space Survival

Oh yeah, there is actual reason on why it's like that. The abilities are separate due to the characters needing bowls on their head for Self Sustenance which is optional equipment. While the resistances themselves are innate

 

[Stefano4444]

If TMS has officially approved this Pachinko, then I don’t see any issue with using it.

I'm fine with upgrading Powers/Abilities and Speed, especially as reacting to lasers or light beams is very consistent in the series. However, I’m less certain about AP and Durability scaling you are proposing.

Island level durability for Lupin III seems significantly higher than anything he's been shown to survive. Assuming the explosion in the clip is truly that large, as its difficult to determine its exact scale based on the gif. Additionally, we don’t see exactly how Lupin survived the explosion, and even if he did he likely only took a portion of it. This would mean that, even if applicable, Lupin would still have only endured a fraction of the explosion.

Moon level for Goemon its also something i'm not sure about and they could be argued as an outliers too. If these feats are legitimate, i still think it might be better to reserve them solely for Goemon’s Zantetsuken. Even if the sword is that powerful, I can’t really see the rest of the cast scaling to it.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Island level durability for Lupin III seems significantly higher than anything he's been shown to survive. Assuming the explosion in the clip is truly that large, as its difficult to determine its exact scale based on the gif. Additionally, we don’t see exactly how Lupin survived the explosion, and even if he did he likely only took a portion of it. This would mean that, even if applicable, Lupin would still have only endured a fraction of the explosion.

The verse would also additionally have the hurricane storm feat for additional evidence for feats of a much higher calibur. If we accept it as AP

As for the explosion feat, we outright see Lupin get fully engulfed by the beam which isn't shown to be that large on it's own. Plus he was literally flying on a plane meaning there isn't much room for it to miss in the first place. He'd more or less be dead center of the explosion

As for consistency, there are more moments in the verse which indicate higher levels of power than what we have. For example Mamo has been manipulating the weather ever since the first movie (notice how the cloud comes to a grinding halt once he realized he's been duped), the Oda Nobunaga feat shows the surrounding area he's in being completely destroyed (additional context: It's a pocket dimension created by Pandora's egg, which is seemingly held together by the Nobunaga robot and completely dismantled itself once destroyed), and off the top of my head I've seen a calculation for a mountain level feat for something in Last Job, but I've yet to confirm how valid the feat it.

If these feats are legitimate, i still think it might be better to reserve them solely for Goemon’s Zantetsuken. Even if the sword is that powerful, I can’t really see the rest of the cast scaling to it.

The feat 100% will only be applied to the blade, the only other characters who would get scaling to it are Hawk and Mamo (whenever his profile is finished) due to the reasoning I gave since they just have the means of logically creating metals on par with it

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Bump

 

[OrangeFR]

Agree

 

[Tonygameman]

Very agree.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Heavy disagree. There have been a lot of Pachinko games that were officially animated and licensed but we have literally no reason to say they’re canonical. They haven’t been referenced in future material nor are they relevant to the series as a whole.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Heavy disagree. There have been a lot of Pachinko games that were officially animated and licensed but we have literally no reason to say they’re canonical. They haven’t been referenced in future material nor are they relevant to the series as a whole.

Most Lupin media has never been referenced in future material nor been relevant to the series as a whole, it's a largely episodic series which has very few examples of continuity (which even then it stays pretty episodic and has little to no relevance in future content that occur after the fact). The only example where continuity played a noticeable role in the entire franchise is part 5 which is a pretty big outlier in that fact, to the point of contradictory information.

The pachinkos include various TMS characters like Morgana, Nyx, Ami, Yatagarasu, Rebecca, and even Mamo himself (which the that game also just confirms that Mamo will return at some point eventually). The main and only real criteria that me and the other knowledgeable members agree on for what makes something good enough to be canon is if it was made/approved by TMS in a significant aspect, due to just how episodic the grand bulk of the franchise is. Which 25 years and 30 games worth of content, various of which contain actual stories is far more than significant enough to warrant usage of, the only main concerns there have been with this have been the actual usage of Pachinko (a very underused and unorthodox source from a western point of view, but not something unheard of especially around here) and the validity/consistency of the more high end feats that were found which is not a problem right now on account of the Last Job providing a feat of similar scale and I'm currently looking for more examples that can be used for it. (The franchise has quite a bit of high end tech/abilities that usually just end up disregarded for one reason of another)

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Most Lupin media has never been referenced in future material nor been relevant to the series as a whole, it's a largely episodic series which has very few examples of continuity (which even then it stays pretty episodic and has little to no relevance in future content that occur after the fact). The only example where continuity played a noticeable role in the entire franchise is part 5 which is a pretty big outlier in that fact, to the point of contradictory information.

The pachinkos include various TMS characters like Morgana, Nyx, Ami, Yatagarasu, Rebecca, and even Mamo himself (which the that game also just confirms that Mamo will return at some point eventually). The main and only real criteria that me and the other knowledgeable members agree on for what makes something good enough to be canon is if it was made/approved by TMS in a significant aspect, due to just how episodic the grand bulk of the franchise is. Which 25 years and 30 games worth of content, various of which contain actual stories is far more than significant enough to warrant usage of, the only main concerns there have been with this have been the actual usage of Pachinko (a very underused and unorthodox source from a western point of view, but not something unheard of especially around here) and the validity/consistency of the more high end feats that were found which is not a problem right now on account of the Last Job providing a feat of similar scale and I'm currently looking for more examples that can be used for it. (The franchise has quite a bit of high end tech/abilities that usually just end up disregarded for one reason of another)

I am begging you to stop using the series’ failures at attempting continuity as an excuse to make literally everything canon. Multiple cartoons have this issue and yet we still need concrete proof to establish canon. Video game spin-offs that have animated cutscenes BY the studio still need to prove their canonicity outright by word of god, or an interview, or whatever. A comic spin-off is one thing but a freaking casino gambling game is where I draw the line with this ridiculousness.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

I am begging you to stop using the series’ failures at attempting continuity as an excuse to make literally everything canon. Multiple cartoons have this issue and yet we still need concrete proof to establish canon.

To my knowledge TMS themselves have never made any official statements of the canon franchise, and using their own works (part 5 again and to a more unusual degree Red vs Green) they prefer to completely composite the franchise in order to keep it's episodic nature. If the official owners of the franchise have significant input on the media, put their own characters in it and continue previous stories that they've made in it, and have been consistent in their lack of reference to past media in the grand majority of the franchise (Part 4 is when the series started being somewhat consistent with it's verse, and that's 40 years after it's been created vs the 10 years it's existed for)

Video game spin-offs that have animated cutscenes BY the studio still need to prove their canonicity outright by word of god, or an interview, or whatever. A comic spin-off is one thing but a freaking casino gambling game is where I draw the line with this ridiculousness.

You are severely underestimating by what I mean by how much they put into these games, there are legit entire stories in these things. Lupin just isn't a franchise that's concerned with continuity and the most it gets are winks and nods in-universe that effectively goes "Remember when we made that? Good times man!". You are putting the verse and it's media on a criteria list which would invalidate the majority on it based on just arbitrary reasonings which would discredit the grand bulk of over 50 years worth of content that's directly made by the owners of Lupin III.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

To my knowledge TMS themselves have never made any official statements of the canon franchise, and using their own works (part 5 again and to a more unusual degree Red vs Green) they prefer to completely composite the franchise in order to keep it's episodic nature. If the official owners of the franchise have significant input on the media, put their own characters in it and continue previous stories that they've made in it, and have been consistent in their lack of reference to past media in the grand majority of the franchise (Part 4 is when the series started being somewhat consistent with it's verse, and that's 40 years after it's been created vs the 10 years it's existed for)

The fact that they’ve made an effort to make canon a thing in the verse and attempt some form of consistency invalidates the idea that Lupin is just exempt from the rules of this wiki because clearly there are some things to work with that don’t include forcing puzzle pieces to fit. If you prefer to make Lupin a character that does not abide by our rules, then it would be a failure of the wiki to allow this CRT to go through. Even with your argument that the series contradicts it’s own canon (vaguely), that’s not an excuse to avoid making what we have fit altogether and cutting the fat on what definitely does not work with this character.

You are severely underestimating by what I mean by how much they put into these games, there are legit entire stories in these things. Lupin just isn't a franchise that's concerned with continuity and the most it gets are winks and nods in-universe that effectively goes "Remember when we made that? Good times man!". You are putting the verse and it's media on a criteria list which would invalidate the majority on it based on just arbitrary reasonings which would discredit the grand bulk of over 50 years worth of content that's directly made by the owners of Lupin III.

Guess what? Silly comic spin offs in cartoons have legit stories in them too. That doesn’t make them a part of the character’s entire skillsets because what if we did what you were proposing then the character would be a complete mishmash of feats, portrayals, and contexts that would contradict each other making it hell for it to work in a Versus matchup. Or just making him overpowered for the sake of him being overpowered.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

The fact that they’ve made an effort to make canon a thing in the verse and attempt some form of consistency invalidates the idea that Lupin is just exempt from the rules of this wiki because clearly there are some things to work with that don’t include forcing puzzle pieces to fit.

Their attempts of consistency amounts to compositing the franchise regardless of how contradictory it may be, which by that logic makes these perfectly viable.

If you prefer to make Lupin a character that does not abide by our rules, then it would be a failure of the wiki to allow this CRT to go through. Even with your argument that the series contradicts it’s own canon (vaguely), that’s not an excuse to avoid making what we have fit altogether and cutting the fat on what definitely does not work with this character.

Of course, so let's see what our wiki's rules are on the subject

"The generally agreed-upon definition is that the work by the original author and creator of the fictional setting is canonical, unless the author or the copyright holder declares otherwise."

Monkey Punch is the original author and creator of the franchise, his versions of the characters aren't what we use and he's given full control and ownership of the medium to TMS who are credited as the copyright owners holders of 99% of the Lupin III media and the things involving it. Since they've created everything the profiles use and own the copyright for it, that means anything they've worked on is the original work

"The primary canon is the source material first released (with few possible exceptions), with the other author works being secondary canon. When different source materials give different versions of the same feat, and by that they contradict each other in the depiction of the feat, the primary canon takes precedence over the secondary canon."

The grand bulk of these machines are either their own stories or sequels to others, meaning they would still be primary canon while pachinko machine versions of Last Job and The First would be considered secondary canon.

"In addition a tertiary canon will be allowed. The tertiary canon consists of official adaptations not overseen by the author, which do not modify or contradict source material."

Due to the nature of TMS, this is basically non-existent

The need for out of universe statements of things being canon is a concept that you are trying to apply to the series which isn't a requirement for canon by our rules. The franchise treats every version of Lupin as the exact same guy, with the only outright alternative version of him being the original one created by Monkey Punch.

Even with your argument that the series contradicts it’s own canon (vaguely), that’s not an excuse to avoid making what we have fit altogether and cutting the fat on what definitely does not work with this character.

The grand bulk of it are things that either have been seen or are similar to things we have seen in the verse, with most of the more controversial stuff just outright having examples from the movies and tv specials which validate the usage of it or existing in similar levels of power to things seen before.

Guess what? Silly comic spin offs in cartoons have legit stories in them too. That doesn’t make them a part of the character’s entire skillsets because what if we did what you were proposing then the character would be a complete mishmash of feats, portrayals, and contexts that would contradict each other making it hell for it to work in a Versus matchup. Or just making him overpowered for the sake of him being overpowered.

Great, now where's the part that proves these are non-canonical side stories? These aren't just silly comic spin offs and instead are another form of medium that are used officially by the recognized creators of the TMS versions of characters we use, to continue and tell new and different stories for the same cast of characters which have existed and been made for decades. The TMS versions themselves are a complete mishmash of feats, portrayals, and contexts however the verse considers all of it occurring through the exact same versions of the characters despite the fact. Trying to argue island and moon level feats when the franchise has had island and moon level feats isn't making a character overpowered for the sake of him being overpowered, it's solidifying a consistent line throughout a very inconsistent franchise.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Their attempts of consistency amounts to compositing the franchise regardless of how contradictory it may be, which by that logic makes these perfectly viable.

Your logic is that they are trying to composite every single thing in the franchise when in actuality, it's just the select works that they chose. While they are plentiful, you are making an assumption that they are compositing everything.

Of course, so let's see what our wiki's rules are on the subject

"The generally agreed-upon definition is that the work by the original author and creator of the fictional setting is canonical, unless the author or the copyright holder declares otherwise."

Monkey Punch is the original author and creator of the franchise, his versions of the characters aren't what we use and he's given full control and ownership of the medium to TMS who are credited as the copyright owners holders of 99% of the Lupin III media and the things involving it. Since they've created everything the profiles use and own the copyright for it, that means anything they've worked on is the original work

An author and a company are two very different things. An author has the authority to drive the narrative of their work by what they deem consistent and correct to their version. A company does not care about consistency and narrative, and is only responsible for getting this stuff out. So in that respect, we can only trust the narrative itself given what it references in-story unless the director/writer/etc. says that they are canonical themselves. You are using this loose freedom you've been given to make it so everything is canon, and that simply does not work.

"The primary canon is the source material first released (with few possible exceptions), with the other author works being secondary canon. When different source materials give different versions of the same feat, and by that they contradict each other in the depiction of the feat, the primary canon takes precedence over the secondary canon."

The grand bulk of these machines are either their own stories or sequels to others, meaning they would still be primary canon while pachinko machine versions of Last Job and The First would be considered secondary canon.

Then by that logic, wouldn't these machines belong to the pachinko canon of these characters since by definition they are secondary canon, not meant to be mainline in any respect? There are multiple comics (Resurrection of Doom), video games (Rise of the Underminer), and otherwise spin-off material that are direct sequels to the source material, but unless the author (non-applicable) or series itself acknowledges these as canonical, then they are non-canon. Oogie's Revenge would have been still just a spin-off if it were not for Tim Burton's involvement. And even without the author's involvement, series like Scooby-Doo with their creators long dead need to have the narrative itself connect pieces of the series together in their place as a cohesive series. So some random video game sequel of Scooby-Doo would not be considered canonical. Maybe if it were mainline, but this is a panchiko machine and I need you to understand how ridiculous it is that you are proposing that a CASINO GAME would be considered mainline canon to the series.

"In addition a tertiary canon will be allowed. The tertiary canon consists of official adaptations not overseen by the author, which do not modify or contradict source material."

Due to the nature of TMS, this is basically non-existent

Again, being very loose here.

The need for out of universe statements of things being canon is a concept that you are trying to apply to the series which isn't a requirement for canon by our rules. The franchise treats every version of Lupin as the exact same guy, with the only outright alternative version of him being the original one created by Monkey Punch.

Again, this is a treatment that you are making based on assumptions. Yes, the series does make reference to multiple Lupin projects being canonical across several different works. That is fine. But when you extend that to EVERYTHING, that's what makes it extremely messy.

The grand bulk of it are things that either have been seen or are similar to things we have seen in the verse, with most of the more controversial stuff just outright having examples from the movies and tv specials which validate the usage of it or existing in similar levels of power to things seen before.

Yes, and then you would apply stuff from Lupin IIIrd into this canon despite it being a grounded series that does not portray anything like the level of power you are describing, and making it direct evidence for scaling. That is extremely troublesome.

Great, now where's the part that proves these are non-canonical side stories? These aren't just silly comic spin offs and instead are another form of medium that are used officially by the recognized creators of the TMS versions of characters we use, to continue and tell new and different stories for the same cast of characters which have existed and been made for decades. The TMS versions themselves are a complete mishmash of feats, portrayals, and contexts however the verse considers all of it occurring through the exact same versions of the characters despite the fact. Trying to argue island and moon level feats when the franchise has had island and moon level feats isn't making a character overpowered for the sake of him being overpowered, it's solidifying a consistent line throughout a very inconsistent franchise.

First of all, that moon is clearly not the size of our actual moon. That is nowhere near moon level, and the island link doesn't even work.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Your logic is that they are trying to composite every single thing in the franchise when in actuality, it's just the select works that they chose. While they are plentiful, you are making an assumption that they are compositing everything.

If we used the logic of them only compositing selective things then that'd still remove a very large bulk of the franchise because while Part 5 mentions a lot of things, most of the movies and tv specials are still not shown there

An author and a company are two very different things. An author has the authority to drive the narrative of their work by what they deem consistent and correct to their version. A company does not care about consistency and narrative, and is only responsible for getting this stuff out. So in that respect, we can only trust the narrative itself given what it references in-story unless the director/writer/etc. says that they are canonical themselves. You are using this loose freedom you've been given to make it so everything is canon, and that simply does not work.

Narrative says island level destruction and moon destruction are completely in reason for these characters. I have no idea what you mean by "trust the narrative itself" when the franchise is just showing these things outright, everything I used is straight from it as it was directly created by what we consider to be the narrative. You are claiming that these things don't work when every single knowledgeable member that has looked at it agrees that anything TMS has approved and made is considered canon. The only issues that arose with this was the usage of pachinkos itself since they are an unusual form of medium and the higher AP feats used due to the dramatic ramp up from the current status, both of which were resolved as pachinkos have been viable content for use in previous cases and the franchise has shown Lupin withstanding similar levels of destructive force before.

Then by that logic, wouldn't these machines belong to the pachinko canon of these characters since by definition they are secondary canon, not meant to be mainline in any respect? There are multiple comics (Resurrection of Doom), video games (Rise of the Underminer), and otherwise spin-off material that are direct sequels to the source material, but unless the author (non-applicable) or series itself acknowledges these as canonical, then they are non-canon. Oogie's Revenge would have been still just a spin-off if it were not for Tim Burton's involvement. And even without the author's involvement, series like Scooby-Doo with their creators long dead need to have the narrative itself connect pieces of the series together in their place as a cohesive series. So some random video game sequel of Scooby-Doo would not be considered canonical.

No, because by definition they are primary canon as they are made by the official creators of TMS Lupin. It's effectively as canon as you can get in this franchise as everything used in them were animated and written by TMS. By your own logic "Oogie's Revenge would have been still just a spin-off if it were not for Tim Burton's involvement", these games would be different versions if not for TMS' direct involvement. The only ones that would be secondary canon would be the pachinko games that act as a different adaptation of pre-existing content (which I mentioned) and that would be a case by case issue since they could be completely faithful adaptations of the movies and make them viable for feats as "If the feat is correctly depicted over multiple canons any of these can be used to judge the feat. Should different results be reached by judging the feat through multiple canons, the result of the primary canon will have priority."

The pachinko machines used here however do not fall under those rules as each one follows it's own plot much like any other Lupin TV Special or movie

Maybe if it were mainline, but this is a panchiko machine and I need you to understand how ridiculous it is that you are proposing that a CASINO GAME would be considered mainline canon to the series.

Unironically this is not unprecedented in media, Tekken and Guilty Gear off the top of my head have canon pachinko machines, one of which have been accepted here for over a year now. These things are entirely case by case but for the Lupin franchise this is perfectly viable for every example used in this CRT

Again, being very loose here.

That's because TMS is very hands on with basically all of it's productions, it's actually pretty difficult to find something they had that little involvement with for the thief unless you want to count actual commercials and advertisements which I'm not doing in a billion years.

Again, this is a treatment that you are making based on assumptions. Yes, the series does make reference to multiple Lupin projects being canonical across several different works. That is fine. But when you extend that to EVERYTHING, that's what makes it extremely messy.

But I'm not extending it to everything, just the things that directly relate to and have the TMS specific versions of the characters in it. Just because that applies to a large amount of content doesn't discredit the fact that they are viable by the wikis rules and by the knowledgeable members of the verse.

Yes, and then you would apply stuff from Lupin IIIrd into this canon despite it being a grounded series that does not portray anything like the level of power you are describing, and making it direct evidence for scaling. That is extremely troublesome.

That entire logic has so many holes in it. Castle of Cagliostro is a grounded movie but the level of power completely changes for The First Contact as Goemon is going around slicing lighting, which has a different level of power to Mystery of Mamo which has Goemon fail to cut a metal alloy despite the fact that his sword is supposed to cut through anything (makes sense when using everything TMS tho) alongside Mamo just casually being able to control the weather with his power, which is a different level of power to The Columbus File which has him slicing a massive waterspout, which is a completely different level of power which has Lupin holding and withstanding the immense force of an artifact capable of destroying entire islands, which is a completely different level of power to the moon feats that I mentioned here, which is a completely different level of power to Part 1 where they just have guns. Trying to argue "this part of the franchise is grounded therefore the rest is unusable" fundamentally doesn't work for the series when practically every single installment of the franchise from the individual parts, the movies, the TV Specials, ect all have different levels of grounding to them, that doesn't change our criteria at all for these things.

First of all, that moon is clearly not the size of our actual moon. That is nowhere near moon level, and the island link doesn't even work.

There are other problems with the moon feat which is why I always opted to avoid using it, however the new one solidifies the usage of it and I was going to give precedent to it as that has a lot more ground to stand on. It's there to support the idea that the pachinko feat is consistent for TMS rather than act on it's own two feet.

No clue why the island link isn't working, it's from the Last Job movie, I put a different link earlier on that just says that the item in question is capable of completely obliterating an island whereas the one I used initially was Lupin actually withstanding the recoil and destructive power of it (wouldn't be as potent as taking the attack directly to the face, but he was still being effected by it and it works as wonderful supporting evidence to this level of power being consistent).

 

[DimeUhDozen]

If we used the logic of them only compositing selective things then that'd still remove a very large bulk of the franchise because while Part 5 mentions a lot of things, most of the movies and tv specials are still not shown there

Then leave them out.

Narrative says island level destruction and moon destruction are completely in reason for these characters. I have no idea what you mean by "trust the narrative itself" when the franchise is just showing these things outright, everything I used is straight from it as it was directly created by what we consider to be the narrative. You are claiming that these things don't work when every single knowledgeable member that has looked at it agrees that anything TMS has approved and made is considered canon. The only issues that arose with this was the usage of pachinkos itself since they are an unusual form of medium and the higher AP feats used due to the dramatic ramp up from the current status, both of which were resolved as pachinkos have been viable content for use in previous cases and the franchise has shown Lupin withstanding similar levels of destructive force before.

These feats both have issues, and I'll get to them soon.

No, because by definition they are primary canon as they are made by the official creators of TMS Lupin. It's effectively as canon as you can get in this franchise as everything used in them were animated and written by TMS. By your own logic "Oogie's Revenge would have been still just a spin-off if it were not for Tim Burton's involvement", these games would be different versions if not for TMS' direct involvement. The only ones that would be secondary canon would be the pachinko games that act as a different adaptation of pre-existing content (which I mentioned) and that would be a case by case issue since they could be completely faithful adaptations of the movies and make them viable for feats as "If the feat is correctly depicted over multiple canons any of these can be used to judge the feat. Should different results be reached by judging the feat through multiple canons, the result of the primary canon will have priority."

That still is making TMS's involvement feel way more personal than it actually is. I highly doubt that the company has a consistent vision of the works that is comparable to an author's say, at least on the level on which you're speaking of, and even then, it would have to specify the canonicity of the subject like how Warner Bros would request specifically that content should be consistent with other works. If you really want something to give it consistency, then look up if the directors and the writers from the installments that are canon worked on it, and then maybe you'd have some ground to stand on.

The pachinko machines used here however do not fall under those rules as each one follows it's own plot much like any other Lupin TV Special or movie

That is still not an excuse.

Unironically this is not unprecedented in media, Tekken and Guilty Gear off the top of my head have canon pachinko machines, one of which have been accepted here for over a year now. These things are entirely case by case but for the Lupin franchise this is perfectly viable for every example used in this CRT

This is very different because Tekken actually had some grounds on proving that the panchiko machine was canon, as it followed up with evidence from the proceeding material in Tekken 8. No Lupin media that proceeds this states that these machines are canon.

That's because TMS is very hands on with basically all of it's productions, it's actually pretty difficult to find something they had that little involvement with for the thief unless you want to count actual commercials and advertisements which I'm not doing in a billion years.

Which makes it even more ridiculous to say that the projects it produces are canon without direct statements or narrative evidence since you could easily make the claim that some commercials it worked on are "canon" and making the rules on what you can and can't conclude loose and reckless as hell.

But I'm not extending it to everything, just the things that directly relate to and have the TMS specific versions of the characters in it. Just because that applies to a large amount of content doesn't discredit the fact that they are viable by the wikis rules and by the knowledgeable members of the verse.

The knowledgable members of the verse is something you bring up frequently, but not staff. Ultimately, they have the final say on what can be accepted as canon, as said with the last CRT, which you still have not removed your changes to despite you being told that the second staff member had no stance on the validity of the canonicity.

That entire logic has so many holes in it. Castle of Cagliostro is a grounded movie but the level of power completely changes for The First Contact as Goemon is going around slicing lighting, which has a different level of power to Mystery of Mamo which has Goemon fail to cut a metal alloy despite the fact that his sword is supposed to cut through anything (makes sense when using everything TMS tho) alongside Mamo just casually being able to control the weather with his power, which is a different level of power to The Columbus File which has him slicing a massive waterspout, which is a completely different level of power which has Lupin holding and withstanding the immense force of an artifact capable of destroying entire islands, which is a completely different level of power to the moon feats that I mentioned here, which is a completely different level of power to Part 1 where they just have guns. Trying to argue "this part of the franchise is grounded therefore the rest is unusable" fundamentally doesn't work for the series when practically every single installment of the franchise from the individual parts, the movies, the TV Specials, ect all have different levels of grounding to them, that doesn't change our criteria at all for these things.

First of all, slicing lightning is more of speed feat than anything and has been relatively consistent with the wacky things that Lupin has done like the laser feats etc. The metal alloy thing can be explained by just PIS or maybe it was just that strong + we don't know if Mamo's weather powers scale to his physical AP + Mystery of Mamo's entire canonicity is dubious as a whole. And we will get to the problems with those feats you mentioned soon.

There are other problems with the moon feat which is why I always opted to avoid using it, however the new one solidifies the usage of it and I was going to give precedent to it as that has a lot more ground to stand on. It's there to support the idea that the pachinko feat is consistent for TMS rather than act on it's own two feet.

You are really downplaying just how much of a problem the feat has because I just calculated the feat based on the size of the moon, and it just barely got up to wall level. It really does not look all that consistent.

No clue why the island link isn't working, it's from the Last Job movie, I put a different link earlier on that just says that the item in question is capable of completely obliterating an island whereas the one I used initially was Lupin actually withstanding the recoil and destructive power of it (wouldn't be as potent as taking the attack directly to the face, but he was still being effected by it and it works as wonderful supporting evidence to this level of power being consistent).

The file that you used on Dropbox has an error stating that it does not exist. And even then, we would have to account for things like surface area and all of that which can massively effect the calculation. If you haven't made a calculation for this feat and it hasn't been approved by staff, then you do not have legs to stand on here, and it would make the pachinko feats massive outliers.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Then leave them out.

None of the knowledgeable members, including myself, would agree with that. TMS media is legitimate for the profiles.

That still is making TMS's involvement feel way more personal than it actually is. I highly doubt that the company has a consistent vision of the works that is comparable to an author's say, at least on the level on which you're speaking of, and even then, it would have to specify the canonicity of the subject like how Warner Bros would request specifically that content should be consistent with other works. If you really want something to give it consistency, then look up if the directors and the writers from the installments that are canon worked on it, and then maybe you'd have some ground to stand on.

They quite literally do have that constant vision, you again are trying to create random hoops to jump through for a franchise that doesn't require it nor does it ever do things like that. If you have an problem then you can make your own CRT to establish specific rules that the verse needs to follow that clarifies everything that is canon and what isn't and elaborates exactly what separates each and every individual form of media from one or the other. Everyone who's a supporter of the verse that has spoken on it is in agreeance that anything TMS is considered legitimate as they are the ones creating and producing everything in the franchise. Trying to argue on why X doesn't work just because you don't agree with the form of media is not a viable argument when literally everyone agrees that it fits with our current definition and vision of 'canon'

This is very different because Tekken actually had some grounds on proving that the panchiko machine was canon, as it followed up with evidence from the proceeding material in Tekken 8. No Lupin media that proceeds this states that these machines are canon.

Most Lupin media doesn't have proceeding material that states it past content is canon, Tekken has it's own case by case rules and so do we. It's just that the pachinko machines fit our guidelines for canonicity

Which makes it even more ridiculous to say that the projects it produces are canon without direct statements or narrative evidence since you could easily make the claim that some commercials it worked on are "canon" and making the rules on what you can and can't conclude loose and reckless as hell.

No, we couldn't use that because those are far less under direct control, things not created by TMS, and have little to no grounding to them at all. As opposed to actual forms of media like movies, tv specials, pachinko, or manga which have their own direct writing, input, influence and standing to use. Literally every piece of TMS Lupin media has the exact same grounds to stand on to each other with the singular exceptions of Part 5 and Red vs Green, both of which contradict themselves in their own writings within themselves and against themselves. There is no reason to discredit everything in the franchise when these things are created and have been officially recognized by TMS for decades

The knowledgable members of the verse is something you bring up frequently, but not staff. Ultimately, they have the final say on what can be accepted as canon, as said with the last CRT, which you still have not removed your changes to despite you being told that the second staff member had no stance on the validity of the canonicity.

I forgot about that one and I'll fix it in a bit (was waiting for someone to respond to the conversation we had since it was a bit vague but it didn't happen and I got sidetracked with other things). But the reason why I mentioned the knowledgeable members repeatedly is because there have yet to be any mention to staff on any of this and you are literally the only I've seen one who directly opposes these things.

First of all, slicing lightning is more of speed feat than anything and has been relatively consistent with the wacky things that Lupin has done like the laser feats etc.

It is a speed feat, but it's also just non-physical interaction which isn't consistent with everything in the verse

The metal alloy thing can be explained by just PIS or maybe it was just that strong + we don't know if Mamo's weather powers scale to his physical AP + Mystery of Mamo's entire canonicity is dubious as a whole.

Various things in the franchise have several means of the getting metal alloy being that strong, Mamo's weather powers are more consistent with the higher end stuff we've seen both in pachinko and out of pachinko (he also does more of it in the pachinko game more directly), and the Mystery of Mamo just as dubious canon as literally everything else in the franchise, hell it even popped up in Part 5 as well!

You are really downplaying just how much of a problem the feat has because I just calculated the feat based on the size of the moon, and it just barely got up to wall level. It really does not look all that consistent.

Wow, congrats, you calculated a feat that never happened because it's just a character describing the characters......... like I said that feat had issues and was meant to be supporting evidence for the character being depicted as doing such feats in the verse. The pachinko variation just holds more validation behind it and the actual destructive output of the feat would be decided when/if it's accepted.

The file that you used on Dropbox has an error stating that it does not exist. And even then, we would have to account for things like surface area and all of that which can massively effect the calculation. If you haven't made a calculation for this feat and it hasn't been approved by staff, then you do not have legs to stand on here, and it would make the pachinko feats massive outliers.

Fixed the links, and again I'll get calculations for them if they are accepted. Those entire things were there to showcase examples of these happening in the verse and to either be accepted as legit feats or considered outliers/alternative abilities with the potential of having further evidence supporting it later on as more of the franchise is explored. I don't intent to just slap moon level on the feat alone and call it a day based on pure eyeballing and I just said that as a general idea based on the presentation of the feats.

There are 3 examples of the characters directly showing examples of attack potency or durability on a massive example from just a few examples from the franchise that I found in a short period of time. I expect to find more examples of higher end stuff since the more I look in the franchise the more I find more and more signs of higher levels of power. Hell the Oda Nobunaga feat would already be an example of the characters going up in tiers since he's maintaining an entire pocket dimension with his power which gets destroyed when he does.

If the staff is fine with the profiles being TMS versions of the characters, then so be it. If the staff have problems with it and need some highly specific criteria that specifies on what can and can't be considered viable, then I'll see what can be accommodated but I don't have a high expectation for that due to most things that would apply to one thing in franchise would also just apply to almost anything else involving it besides just being specific spots in it.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

None of the knowledgeable members, including myself, would agree with that. TMS media is legitimate for the profiles.

That doesn't matter because the staff members give that ultimate say.

They quite literally do have that constant vision, you again are trying to create random hoops to jump through for a franchise that doesn't require it nor does it ever do things like that. If you have an problem then you can make your own CRT to establish specific rules that the verse needs to follow that clarifies everything that is canon and what isn't and elaborates exactly what separates each and every individual form of media from one or the other. Everyone who's a supporter of the verse that has spoken on it is in agreeance that anything TMS is considered legitimate as they are the ones creating and producing everything in the franchise. Trying to argue on why X doesn't work just because you don't agree with the form of media is not a viable argument when literally everyone agrees that it fits with our current definition and vision of 'canon'

That should be on YOU as a knowledgable member of the verse to do. Without these kinds of rules, you could never hope to get a CRT like this off the ground. As for me, I'm just trying to nip this in the bud as this freaking casino game that hasn't had any official statements of being canon other than assumptions that you've made based on the fact that it was created from a massive conglomerate of people with no definitive say on what is canonical from a narrative point of view, and the fact that it throws a massive wrench in the consistency of the dozens of projects that Lupin has been in; how many plot threads it would effectively unravel, and when you don't have the absurdity of a surreal cartoon to fall back on, this becomes a problem.

Most Lupin media doesn't have proceeding material that states it past content is canon, Tekken has it's own case by case rules and so do we. It's just that the pachinko machines fit our guidelines for canonicity

You just literally said the Part 5 era did that. There is no excuse.

No, we couldn't use that because those are far less under direct control, things not created by TMS, and have little to no grounding to them at all. As opposed to actual forms of media like movies, tv specials, pachinko, or manga which have their own direct writing, input, influence and standing to use. Literally every piece of TMS Lupin media has the exact same grounds to stand on to each other with the singular exceptions of Part 5 and Red vs Green, both of which contradict themselves in their own writings within themselves and against themselves. There is no reason to discredit everything in the franchise when these things are created and have been officially recognized by TMS for decades

And yet there are multiple Lupin projects and films that call back to each other and establish some continuity. The fact that Red Vs Green exists, is made by TMS and massively contradicts everything else downright waves massive red flags onto why we can't say that everything it puts out is canonical, and why we need official statements. Because if you do, then the character you're arguing for will not make sense, the abilities will not make sense, the in-character arguments will not make sense, and most importantly -- the power levels will not make sense.

I forgot about that one and I'll fix it in a bit (was waiting for someone to respond to the conversation we had since it was a bit vague but it didn't happen and I got sidetracked with other things). But the reason why I mentioned the knowledgeable members repeatedly is because there have yet to be any mention to staff on any of this and you are literally the only I've seen one who directly opposes these things.

That doesn't mean that staff wouldn't be opposed if they knew. They're probably more focused on bigger threads and CRTs than this. The staff responses that you've gotten thus far have been lenient.

It is a speed feat, but it's also just non-physical interaction which isn't consistent with everything in the verse

Yes it is. Gomon's sword has very frequently been shown to disobey the laws of physics. It's portrayed as a superpower if anything to the point where in Lupin III The First, when Goemon is tied up, he outright says that things would have been different if he had his blade with him. It's frequently portrayed to be a higher level than anything else in the verse.

Various things in the franchise have several means of the getting metal alloy being that strong, Mamo's weather powers are more consistent with the higher end stuff we've seen both in pachinko and out of pachinko (he also does more of it in the pachinko game more directly), and the Mystery of Mamo just as dubious canon as literally everything else in the franchise, hell it even popped up in Part 5 as well!

It really doesn't. It is only portrayed as powerful as it is in the pachinko game and the only island level feats you have to stand on is the one from Last Job, which would still make it a massive outlier among the countless movies that have Tier 9 feats.

Wow, congrats, you calculated a feat that never happened because it's just a character describing the characters......... like I said that feat had issues and was meant to be supporting evidence for the character being depicted as doing such feats in the verse. The pachinko variation just holds more validation behind it and the actual destructive output of the feat would be decided when/if it's accepted.

You have literally just proved why it cannot be used as supporting evidence for anything. If this showing is anything to go by, it's that this level of strength is how Goemon is portrayed. I'm pretty sure the actual moon feat from pachinko could go even lower too.

Fixed the links, and again I'll get calculations for them if they are accepted. Those entire things were there to showcase examples of these happening in the verse and to either be accepted as legit feats or considered outliers/alternative abilities with the potential of having further evidence supporting it later on as more of the franchise is explored. I don't intent to just slap moon level on the feat alone and call it a day based on pure eyeballing and I just said that as a general idea based on the presentation of the feats.

It looks like the device's power is able to destroy the island over time. An argument could even be made for deconstruction hax rather than outright AP considering that it takes a really long time just to destroy the helicopter that they're both on. It doesn't seem like Lupin scales to island-level destruction outright, which makes this feat incredibly dubious.

There are 3 examples of the characters directly showing examples of attack potency or durability on a massive example from just a few examples from the franchise that I found in a short period of time. I expect to find more examples of higher end stuff since the more I look in the franchise the more I find more and more signs of higher levels of power. Hell the Oda Nobunaga feat would already be an example of the characters going up in tiers since he's maintaining an entire pocket dimension with his power which gets destroyed when he does.

So far, the higher end feats in question are extremely debunkable with the pocket dimension being the only thing that I maybe believe because I haven't even seen it yet. Everything you've brought up is either an outlier or built upon logic that just can't support itself. If you add these feats up and put them up against what is portrayed across the hundreds of episodes of the anime and the dozens of films, then the ratio of that is overwhelmingly in Tier 9-8's favor.

Edit: The pocket dimension scaling has it’s own problem. Why would he need the device to destroy the island if he’s above island level? The logic contradicts itself.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

That doesn't matter because the staff members give that ultimate say.

Ok..... then it also doesn't matter what you say for the same logic

That should be on YOU as a knowledgable member of the verse to do. Without these kinds of rules, you could never hope to get a CRT like this off the ground. As for me, I'm just trying to nip this in the bud as this freaking casino game that hasn't had any official statements of being canon other than assumptions that you've made based on the fact that it was created from a massive conglomerate of people with no definitive say on what is canonical from a narrative point of view, and the fact that it throws a massive wrench in the consistency of the dozens of projects that Lupin has been in; how many plot threads it would effectively unravel, and when you don't have the absurdity of a surreal cartoon to fall back on, this becomes a problem.

You have also tried to argue the same thing for movies and tv specials which have decades of media for a franchise that has barley ever followed such rules. Trying to fall behind "it's a casino game" doesn't qualify as viable and trying to argue it being a massive conglomerate of people invalidates it also doesn't work since we literally have profiles dedicated entirely to characters that are the conglomerate's version. Lupin being his TMS counterpart doesn't change the status of the profile itself.

You just literally said the Part 5 era did that. There is no excuse.

Yes, the part 5 era which only makes up an incredibly small amount of content of the entire franchise, stands out specifically because it showcases a bunch of past material (Which for the record it's only doing because it was made to celebrate the 50th anniversary) and on all accounts in any other verse it would be considered non-canon due to how contradictory it is. There is plenty of excuse when the moments on continuity are so spread thin that the ones that include it directly goes against itself.

And yet there are multiple Lupin projects and films that call back to each other and establish some continuity. The fact that Red Vs Green exists, is made by TMS and massively contradicts everything else downright waves massive red flags onto why we can't say that everything it puts out is canonical, and why we need official statements. Because if you do, then the character you're arguing for will not make sense, the abilities will not make sense, the in-character arguments will not make sense, and most importantly -- the power levels will not make sense.

Red vs Green has a bunch of problems besides that fact and contradicts far more than any other examples in the franchise could. It specifically doesn't involve Lupin himself, it had production issues, the actual placement of the movie in the timeline is weird, ect ect. If we want to discredit something purely because it contradicts so much of what came before and ends up a confusing mess, then Part 5 has got to go...... so does Part 3 and 6, a lot of weird things happen in parts 3 and 6 that do not mesh well with everything in parts 1, 2, and 4 which clearly have the most clear canon out of the franchise because................... it's grounded IG?

That doesn't mean that staff wouldn't be opposed if they knew. They're probably more focused on bigger threads and CRTs than this. The staff responses that you've gotten thus far have been lenient.

And if that's so, then that is fine. I am doing my part currently and am trying to figure this whole thing out. But that also doesn't just mean the staff is just going to agree with you.

Yes it is. Gomon's sword has very frequently been shown to disobey the laws of physics. It's portrayed as a superpower if anything to the point where in Lupin III The First, when Goemon is tied up, he outright says that things would have been different if he had his blade with him. It's frequently portrayed to be a higher level than anything else in the verse.

No actually, most cases of Goemon's sword defying the laws of physics are in the movies and TV specials. In fact you using The First goes against your own arguments because it has nothing confirming it's canon, no future media to validate it nor anything to validate it other than being another TMS movie. The only real moments where he's shown to do so specifically in the TV series is during part 3 to my knowledge outside of some very specific moments in part 2 like the shooting star feat, in every other part it's just really strong sword (I've seen Fujiko clash and beat Goemon with it using just a scimitar). While it's usually at a higher level then everything else around it that doesn't change the fact that most of the things involving it which we hold to a higher standard aren't fitting your oddly specific criteria.

It really doesn't. It is only portrayed as powerful as it is in the pachinko game and the only island level feats you have to stand on is the one from Last Job, which would still make it a massive outlier among the countless movies that have Tier 9 feats.

Not exactly since other movies, like the First you mentioned, alongside some other things in the franchise like Part 4 have other machines that have shown things on similarly large scale. I just haven't gotten to them yet since this is 50 years worth of content that needs to be sorted out. Hell the verse was originally 8-C but you specifically argued that because the canon is so loose literal core cast members could die in an episode or that a random villain with no discernable physical traits could be monumentally stronger than the main cast. There are plenty of things in the verse that go above Tier 9, especially in the movies, you just deny it at every corner.

You have literally just proved why it cannot be used as supporting evidence for anything. If this showing is anything to go by, it's that this level of strength is how Goemon is portrayed. I'm pretty sure the actual moon feat from pachinko could go even lower too.

How? If a character in-verse from a direct TMS work is saying something and believes it, then it works as supporting evidence. It's not primary evidence specifically because it didn't happen

It looks like the device's power is able to destroy the island over time. An argument could even be made for deconstruction hax rather than outright AP considering that it takes a really long time just to destroy the helicopter that they're both on. It doesn't seem like Lupin scales to island-level destruction outright, which makes this feat incredibly dubious.

I'm not going into the specifics of that entire thing right now, we are just going into circles and I'm sure this will happen again during the next revision and it'd require too much mental energy for me to focus on it....

So far, the higher end feats in question are extremely debunkable with the pocket dimension being the only thing that I maybe believe because I haven't even seen it yet. Everything you've brought up is either an outlier or built upon logic that just can't support itself. If you add these feats up and put them up against what is portrayed across the hundreds of episodes of the anime and the dozens of films, then the ratio of that is overwhelmingly in Tier 9-8's favor.

And if we put those hundreds of episodes and the dozens of films against your own criteria, wow non-canon scattered all across the board. You can't argue "this is all non-canon because it doesn't fit XYZ" and then say "We have all this evidence of XYZ which goes against it" with things in XYZ also agreeing it it. You are trying to argue everything is both canon and not-canon which results in everything being unusable because of your own personal vision.

I'm not going to respond if you post another response, because these entire arguments go nowhere and effectively amount to your word vs my word (arguably also the knowledgeable members word). I will wait for staff input on it because that is the only reasonable way that this can be resolved, since it's clear I'm not going to agree with you and you're not going to agree with me.

Edit: Lupin never wanted to destroy an island? The main villain wanted to so that he could completely kill and wipe out any evidence of Lupin, the gang, and the Fuma clan (Even if they did want to, we literally have standards that separate AP and range as not all forms of attacks have the range needed to do so. The only time we've seen a character use that much range is with Lupin's cloud dispersal or Goemon's long range slashes, both of which would be air manipulation exclusive). Also Lupin didn't want to destroy the pocket dimension either since that was literally filled with gold and loot, it's just that killing Oda Nobunaga caused the entire thing to fall apart due to it maintaining it.

 

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Reinvigorating bump