Lucifer (CW) Fear Resistance

[ByAsura]

No, I mean demons aren't scared by it, and since the Devil is an Angel, and Hell is his domain, it's all sort of connected to Lucifer's divinity.

Firstly, Hell is almost entirely composed of Demons. Secondly, you're the one connecting it to Lucifer's divinity. Give actual evidence.

That divine/demonic things aren't affected?

No, that it's even fear manipulation.

Literally just give me one statement (when you can, obviously, take your time) that Lucifer has fear manipulation, and everything'll be fine.

This line of logic doesn't work.

This debate was already meaningless because your entire argument is (for now, anyway) head canon.

If we assume we can't possibly determine a normal level of fear, then this entire debate is meaningless. We have to make some assumptions when scaling fictional characters, and we have not received any evidence that average people are anything other than average people in this universe.

As I said, most people would be ******* terrified of Lucifer's true form, let alone him shapeshifting into that form.

It's like if I said 'Chucky has fear manipulation, because nobody is that afraid of a doll with a knife.'

As for assumptions based on the average response, shapeshifting men (in the way that Lucifer does it) don't exist IRL, so yeah... idk what to tell you.

If we, like reasonable people, assume that these normal people have normal fear responses, then it's true that their reactions are extreme.

Literally the entire point of the argument we're having now is that most of the reactions are reasonable, and that only a few people have died.

All he says in that clip is that he's going to punish him. Regardless, this part is more speculative and a side point, so I'm not too attached to it.

That wasn't my point at all. You claimed that everyone instinctively knows who Lucifer after transforming, and I explained that almost all of the examples in the show were from people who already knew Lucifer Morningstar and thought his get-up was a façade.

The clip I gave was someone who didn't know that Lucifer was the Devil after transforming, which debunks your point outright.

It seems more clear in that scene that only the one person saw it, whether through PIS or supernatural means.

Half of them are scared upon seeing his face, so that's not true at all.

It wouldn't make sense for them to not mention it at all. They are excited because of the money going everywhere.

That literally makes no sense. They mention their powers and self-actualisation all the time, and it's a huge plot point that Lucifer hates how humanity projects their fears and sins onto him, so they'd have at least brought it up once.

What does money going everywhere even have to do with any of this?

I still don't see your point. What are you arguing, exactly, that Lucifer couldn't possibly have fear manipulation because he already can get people to say their desires? He's demonstrated many other powers, which have all varied via self-manifestation, this doesn't make any sense as an argument.

No, it's that Fear Manip explicitly isn't part of the specific power set you're trying to attribute it to. Maybe he has it in general or for some other reason (both via Devil Face in this scenario), but not what you're trying to attribute it to.

That mortal minds react strongly to divinity and are more malleable.

What you actually mean is that a man got tortured in hell, where time passes way faster than the normal universe, by Demons so he's no longer affected by scary shit. It's called emotional numbness.

That this power is supernatural in nature.

That he has already demonstrated levels of mind manipulation with his "mojo".

None of which is stated to do with drawing out fear, just desires.

That he is an angel, and can self-manifest powers.
That to most people he scares, he is just a guy in a suit, who then has a ******-up face for a second. A giant snake poses natural danger in the fact that it's a giant snake, ad could easily eat you.

My guy, he's not a person in a normal suit that's weird for a second, he's a demonic shapeshifter transforming right in front of a person in a manner that's physically impossible, and he often threatens violence and punishment. You're grossly downplaying the gravity of seeing someone do that right in front of you, especially when it comes to certain people.

 

[ByAsura]

On second thought, I think possibly makes sense.

There's no proof, but there's some evidence. Plus the editing choices are weird in some scenes.

 

[FinePoint]

Well we're obviously not going to find a statement like "Lucifer has fear manipulation as per the definition of the Vs Battles Wiki" where they lay out all our criteria. Having that be your only standard of evidence is just a bit ridiculous.
You can deduce it from the feats and context- it seems like they were going for a supernatural element. I can't definitively prove that, but we can't definitively prove 99% of the wiki, and from a stylistic perspective, as well as the context that he has a lot of other powers, notably some dealing with manipulating people's minds, in addition to what tends to be very extreme reactions, and that people who are also demonic/divine are immune, it just makes sense.

As for the mojo thing, I apologize, but I simply still don't see your point.
All of their powers are actualized. The fact that he calls the desire thing his mojo, and the Devil Face his Devil Face, is sort of irrelevant.
In what way at all does that prove he doesn't have fear manipulation?

 

[FinePoint]

Also apologies if my responses become less frequent and shorter. My flu is developing quickly, and I feel much worse now.
I think it would be wise to simply call for more opinions, since we appear to be at an impasse.
I wouldn't be mad at possibly.

 

[ImmortalDread]

On second thought, I think possibly makes sense.

There's no proof, but there's some evidence. Plus the editing choices are weird in some scenes.

Honestly, the timestamp you inserted, the dude just got scared, that's it. Not really comfortable for it to be fear manipulation, people may take opportunity and misunderstand the ability and give it to everyone who “got scared and made me fear from a goofy transformation”.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Also apologies if my responses become less frequent and shorter. My flu is developing quickly, and I feel much worse now.
I think it would be wise to simply call for more opinions, since we appear to be at an impasse.
I wouldn't be mad at possibly.

Take care of yourself! Health is your first priority. Have time with yourself and leave internet for a while! Hopes everything goes well for you!

 

[ByAsura]

Also apologies if my responses become less frequent and shorter. My flu is developing quickly, and I feel much worse now.
I think it would be wise to simply call for more opinions, since we appear to be at an impasse.
I wouldn't be mad at possibly.

Hope you get better soon.

Well we're obviously not going to find a statement like "Lucifer has fear manipulation as per the definition of the Vs Battles Wiki" where they lay out all our criteria. Having that be your only standard of evidence is just a bit ridiculous.

It's not my standard of evidence because it's not about evidence, it's about proof.

In what way at all does that prove he doesn't have fear manipulation?

I'm not the one who need to prove he doesn't, you need to prove it does. It can be explained by something else.

I won't bother going over the rest since I've already addressed the same arguments.

 

[FinePoint]

Hope you get better soon.

Thank you, friend.
I apologize if/that I came off as hostile in any way before, it seems as if I have, now that I reread my previous messages. I have been in a very poor mood due to the pain, and it likely skewed my tone.
Rest assured I ultimately view this site as a fun hobby, and these debates as a friendly discussion.

It's not my standard of evidence because it's not about evidence, it's about proof.

I'm not the one who need to prove he doesn't, you need to prove it does. It can be explained by something else.

I am aware of the burden of proof, friend, but I'm asking why you brought the names of particular powers up. If it isn't to disprove my point, then what was the goal? I understand it's probably frustrating that I'm unable to understand this particular point of yours, but I'd like to work together to resolve that. Perhaps you could try rewording it?

I won't bother going over the rest since I've already addressed the same arguments.

That is understandable. While there's a few things I feel like we need to clarify between the two of us, I feel like fresh perspectives are ultimately needed here.

 

[ByAsura]

I am aware of the burden of proof, friend, but I'm asking why you brought the names of particular powers up. If it isn't to disprove my point, then what was the goal?

Not really sure what you mean here.

If it's about the mojo stuff, I just disagreed with you on that specific point (much like characters knowing Lucifer is the devil via his face) because they strongly imply that's not the case in the series itself.