Lucifer and Michael Multiversal or Universal?

[Thesuperor]

Is there any evidence to support the statement that Lucifer and Michael are multiversal? Or are they just Universal characters? So should they be tier 3-A if so?

 

[Antvasima]

As far as I have been informed, Michael Demiurgos created the totality of a multiverse by exploding his whole body.

In addition, Destiny was displayed at the top of the 11-dimensional multiversal hierarchy map in Multiversity, and Lucifer and Michael should scale.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

In addition, Destiny was displayed at the top of the 11-dimensional multiversal hierarchy map in Multiversity, and Lucifer and Michael should scale.

This is correct. It is also important to note that Death, the most powerful of the Endless, is still below Lucifer, as she has no claim over him, and despite keeping up her normal collected and slightly condescending demeanor in one of their confrontations, I recall Lucifer threatens to destroy her if she gets in his way, and I'm fairly certain she doesn't deny that he could.

I'm also almost certain Dream straight up said Lucifer could destroy him, but I will look for the scan.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Found them.

Lucifer states Death has no claim over him.

Later in the same story, Lucifer directly threatens Death, implying that since he plans to survive this ordeal, he is not above getting rid of her to do so.

Dream straight up admits he is scared of Lucifer, who actually has to promise him that he will not harm Dream before they both talk.

In another instance, Dream states that Lucifer is more powerful than he is by a substantial amount.

Whereas Michael and Lucifer are direct creations of the Presence and regarded as the finest beings he has ever made, the Endless are merely a side-effect of creation, which is something far less impressive.

There's probably more I'm forgetting, but to my knowledge, Lucifer and Michael have always been portrayed as the superiors to the Endless. The only thing they don't exceed the Endless in is, on occasion, knowledge, but their superior power has always been a fact.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Here's Michael exploding into a new creation, btw. Keep in mind there was absolutely nothing left to make something new from, so it's not like only a single universe was gone.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I was aware that Lucifer and Michael are above the Endless, but thank you for the scans.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, I was aware that Lucifer and Michael are above the Endless, but thank you for the scans.

This was more clarification for the OP, to confirm why Lucifer and Michael are Tier 1 instead of low Tier 2.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Thesuperor]

Here's Michael exploding into a new creation, btw. Keep in mind there was absolutely nothing left to make something new from, so it's not like only a single universe was gone.

How do we now what he created was a multiverse/megaverse and not just a single universe?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

How do we now what he created was a multiverse/megaverse and not just a single universe?

Because it was supposed to replicate the beginning of their father's creation, which was everything, out of an otherwise endless nothingness where nothing new could be created.

However, I can understand your skepticism. Originally, Michael and Lucifer were likely planned to be Universe level+ beings strictly from earlier showings, but the changes to the Endless and additions to DC's multiverse have placed them on top of a very powerful hierarchy, and essentially retroactively made many of their feats more impressive via clarification. In short, what was originally only able to be confirmed as a universal+ feat was essentially retconned into a multiversal feat via the larger changes to DC's multiverse and the characters themselves.

 

[Thesuperor]

How do we now what he created was a multiverse/megaverse and not just a single universe?

Because it was supposed to replicate the beginning of their father's creation, which was everything, out of an otherwise endless nothingness where nothing new could be created.
However, I can understand your skepticism. Originally, Michael and Lucifer were likely planned to be Universe level+ beings strictly from earlier showings, but the changes to the Endless and additions to DC's multiverse have placed them on top of a very powerful hierarchy, and essentially retroactively made many of their feats more impressive via clarification. In short, what was originally only able to be confirmed as a universal+ feat was essentially retconned into a multiversal feat via the larger changes to DC's multiverse and the characters themselves.

I understand, I view them as multiversal beings myself. I was debating with others about this over at another forum. I had some truble proving to them that Michael and Lucifer are multiversal beings, but hoepfully I can convince them now with some of the scans acquried here.( Side note: Do you think Lucifer is stronger than the likes of the Living Tribunal and Thanos with the Infnity Gauntlet?)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I understand, I view them as multiversal beings myself. I was debating with others about this over at another forum. I had some truble proving to them that Michael and Lucifer are multiversal beings, but hoepfully I can convince them now with some of the scans acquried here.( Side note: Do you think Lucifer is stronger than the likes of the Living Tribunal and Thanos with the Infnity Gauntlet?)

I'd say he's without a doubt stronger than Thanos, though I'd consider TLT at his peak to be superior to Lucifer, as that is "1-B" by our scale. However, in the vast majority of instances, his power is shown to be on much lower levels, whereas Lucifer, to my knowledge, seems to have some of the more consistent power I've seen from DC and Marvel.

No idea how strong current Tribunal is (the Warlock one), as I don't believe he's really had any solid showcase of power.

 

[Antvasima]

The new LT does not make any sense, as he supposedly acquired his power from "absorbing the old LT from a parallel universe", even though there was explicitly just supposed to be one single Tribunal across the multiverse, as the character was its embodiment.

 

[Thesuperor]

The new LT does not make any sense, as he supposedly acquired his power from "absorbing the old LT from a parallel universe", even though there was explicitly just supposed to be one single Tribunal across the multiverse, as the character was its embodiment.

Do you have a scan of that?

 

[Antvasima]

It was stated in "The Infinity Entity" and "The Infinity Finale".

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am a big fan of DC Dark / Vertigo, and I think I can help.

The Presence is the creator of the 11-D DC Multiverse. The Demiurgic Archangels and The Endless are the closest to him in power, and they have a variety of feats / statements that colaborate for their High 1-C rating.

- Through Michael Demiurgos' power, Lucifer shaped a complete Multiverse, of scale equal to his father's.

- Elaine Belloc accidentaly created a third creation, equal to The Presence's in size.

- Destiny of the Endless carries the entirety of the universe / multiverse / creation in his book.

- Lucifer Morningstar flew beyond the Multiversal Source Wall.

- While the canonicity is debatle, Dream of the Endless defeated the 10th Dimensional Ultimator by speaking.

- Death can kill anything, even Higher Spatial Dimensions and reality itself. She will be the last living being when all finally ends, and she will "lock" the universe's door before fading. She also takes Lex Luthor to outside of space-time and into a rolled up higher dimension in a storyline.

- Mere manifestations of The Presence (Godhead, The Voice...) have shown superiority over 2-A and High 2-A beings, such as Cronus at his peak and The Specter + The Phantom Stranger, who were going to destroy "all of creation" if they fought.

- Also, The Dreaming can ignore causality and reshape reality completely according to the dreams and imaginations of living beings. According to Lucifer's writer, it was the dreams and imaginations of every human which formed The Presence, so originally there was likely only The Endless, yet humanity's desire for a Creator rewrote reality.

There are probably other feats I can't think of. Hope this helps.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. That was quite a good summary. However, given that this is a rather old and concluded thread, perhaps we should close it?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Thank you. I think it's best to close this.