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Should we add links to the Valar pages in the verse page?
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Lotr tiering revision 2.0
- Thread starter MasterOfArda
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- #43
Done.
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- #45
No problem. Can I fix the non-cannon information on the Galadriel page, like her banishing Sauron?
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Done
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What do you think of the 3-B feat and MFTL+ speed.Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
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Oh. Alright
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- #53
Should we add Low-Godly regen to the Ainur
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Loc 5040
Silmarillion: "yet his spirit arose out of the deep"
Here Sauron, after having his physical form destroyed, rise out of the ocean and, same loc "wrought himself a new form"
That's a solid Low-Godly feat
Silmarillion: "yet his spirit arose out of the deep"
Here Sauron, after having his physical form destroyed, rise out of the ocean and, same loc "wrought himself a new form"
That's a solid Low-Godly feat
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I was reading the Silmarillion yesterday and found a Star-level feat for low-tier Maia: Arien is pushing the sun until evening, at which point "the Sun was drawn down by the servants of Ulmo and went then in haste under the Earth, and so came unseen to the east and there mounted the heaven again." So we have servants of Ulmo, who don't even have names, pulling the Sun out of the sky.
I originally regarded the planet-level Balrogs as just PIS, but this actually supports that and may even increase it, as well as possibly scale to Gandalf and the other Istari.
I originally regarded the planet-level Balrogs as just PIS, but this actually supports that and may even increase it, as well as possibly scale to Gandalf and the other Istari.
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Awesome.
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The main issue would probably be the fact Arien wouldn't exactly be a low-tier Maia, and we don't know how many of Ulmo's servants there were, so I'm not sure on that one.
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Azathoth, can i ask a couple qeustions.
1. Should Ainur have Low-Godly regen?
2. Is the 3-B feat for the Valar valid?
3. Should the Ainur have MFTL+ speed for moving through space?
1. Should Ainur have Low-Godly regen?
2. Is the 3-B feat for the Valar valid?
3. Should the Ainur have MFTL+ speed for moving through space?
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1. I don't know, honestly. Quite possible, but I wouldn't say for certain.
2. Probably, yeah.
3. Do you mean when they were spirits and entered Ea? I would assume so.
2. Probably, yeah.
3. Do you mean when they were spirits and entered Ea? I would assume so.
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Alright.
The big one here is the 3-B feat. Should it be added to their pages?
The big one here is the 3-B feat. Should it be added to their pages?
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Obviously Arien is at least 4-C and Tilion is at least 5-C. However, it may be difficult to scale other Maiar to them, as power seems to have little relation to occupation separate from which Vala they served: Tilion was a hunter in Orome's company but was far weaker than Arien, who watered flowers in the gardens of Vana. It seems that each Vala has a "court" of Maiar individually suited to them and their powers, with a few very powerful named spirits and hosts of weaker, nameless Maiar; Manwe and Varda had Eonwe, Ilmare, Olorin and the bird-spirits, Orome had Tilion and other, certainly comparable, Maiar hunters; Aule had Sauron and Saruman, Ulmo had Osse, Uinen and his nameless servants who pulled the freaking sun out of the sky, Yavanna had Melian (who was strong enough to drive away Ungoliant)...
Moon level is starting to be on the low side for named Maiar once we realize that a number of lower-tier Maiar mentioned only once can pull a collective Star level feat. I'm starting to think that the Balrogs driving away a hungry Ungoliant is increasingly less PIS and more representative of how powerful an average Maia really is.
Also, Arien is likely much higher than 4-C, according to this passage from Of The Sun And Moon. "Then (Morgoth) assailed Tilion, sending spirits of shadow against him, and there was strife in Ilmen beneath the paths of the stars; but Tilion was victorious. And Arien Morgoth feared with a great fear, but dared not come nigh her, having indeed no longer the power." Keep in mind that this was relatively early in Morgoth's power dispersal, so his avatar was still incredibly dangerous and capable of withstanding the combined energies of all three Silmarils for thousands of years at a time.
Overall, 6-B seems far too low a baseline for the named Maiar we have, especially the Istari. Manwe treated Olorin with a great amount of respect in their councils, which indicated he was one of the greater spirits as well as wisest, and Cirdan perceived that Olorin did in fact possess the "greatest spirit" out of the Istari. Add to that how the original 6-B scalings for the Istari were based on Osse, who should be at least comparable to Tilion and likely far higher--Tilion, after all, was just one of Orome's hunters while Osse is Ulmo's right-hand man--and it becomes clear that pretty much all of the Maiar pages need to be upgraded significantly.
Moon level is starting to be on the low side for named Maiar once we realize that a number of lower-tier Maiar mentioned only once can pull a collective Star level feat. I'm starting to think that the Balrogs driving away a hungry Ungoliant is increasingly less PIS and more representative of how powerful an average Maia really is.
Also, Arien is likely much higher than 4-C, according to this passage from Of The Sun And Moon. "Then (Morgoth) assailed Tilion, sending spirits of shadow against him, and there was strife in Ilmen beneath the paths of the stars; but Tilion was victorious. And Arien Morgoth feared with a great fear, but dared not come nigh her, having indeed no longer the power." Keep in mind that this was relatively early in Morgoth's power dispersal, so his avatar was still incredibly dangerous and capable of withstanding the combined energies of all three Silmarils for thousands of years at a time.
Overall, 6-B seems far too low a baseline for the named Maiar we have, especially the Istari. Manwe treated Olorin with a great amount of respect in their councils, which indicated he was one of the greater spirits as well as wisest, and Cirdan perceived that Olorin did in fact possess the "greatest spirit" out of the Istari. Add to that how the original 6-B scalings for the Istari were based on Osse, who should be at least comparable to Tilion and likely far higher--Tilion, after all, was just one of Orome's hunters while Osse is Ulmo's right-hand man--and it becomes clear that pretty much all of the Maiar pages need to be upgraded significantly.
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And here are some quotes indicating that the high-tier Maiar are nearly as powerful as the avatars of the Valar.
"And the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves." (Ainulindale)
"Ungoliant fled from the north and came into the realm of King Thingol, and a terror of darkness was about her; but by the power of Melian she was stayed." (Of The Sindar)
"Queen Melian was of the kindred of Valar..." (Of The Sindar)
Note that Melian driving away Ungoliant was before she created the Girdle, so she just fought her off when even Morgoth couldn't and it took an entire army of Balrogs. That's insane power for a Maiar and it shows that the power gaps are really not that large. So of Melian is comparable to the physical form of Morgoth, it would greatly upgrade the high-tier Maiar as well as scale up the mid-high tiers like the Istari and the Balrogs.
"And the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves." (Ainulindale)
"Ungoliant fled from the north and came into the realm of King Thingol, and a terror of darkness was about her; but by the power of Melian she was stayed." (Of The Sindar)
"Queen Melian was of the kindred of Valar..." (Of The Sindar)
Note that Melian driving away Ungoliant was before she created the Girdle, so she just fought her off when even Morgoth couldn't and it took an entire army of Balrogs. That's insane power for a Maiar and it shows that the power gaps are really not that large. So of Melian is comparable to the physical form of Morgoth, it would greatly upgrade the high-tier Maiar as well as scale up the mid-high tiers like the Istari and the Balrogs.
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I think that their striking strength needs some revisions. In the Valaqeunta Morgoth spilled oceans. If he through them out into the void then that would have been Moon Class, so that's a good low end. A high end would be Arien moving the sun, a Large Star Class feat. It is high end because we don't know if she used her strength alone to move it. A sort of super high end uses scaling from the 3-B feat performed by all the flowers of Teleprion to get the weight of the Moon via mass energy conversion, and then uses the moons speed to calc for KE. That's Multi-Solar System Class
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So is are the Valar's tier "4-A to 3-B" or just plain 3-B
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I am uncertain. I am still waiting for Azathoth to reply. However, if the Valar can withstand attacks from 4-A or 3-B beings, I think that they should logically have similar striking strength levels.
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That causes probelms.
If the striking strength is as high as their attack potency, then things get ridiculous with Maiar scaling. It would be impossible to scale them without getting questions like:
Why didn't the Balrog's punches destroy the planet?
Why didn't Sauron's fight with Gil-Galad destroy the Solar System?
See the problem
If the striking strength is as high as their attack potency, then things get ridiculous with Maiar scaling. It would be impossible to scale them without getting questions like:
Why didn't the Balrog's punches destroy the planet?
Why didn't Sauron's fight with Gil-Galad destroy the Solar System?
See the problem
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3-B post-Ea Valar should be fine, due to shaping the universe after entering the space-time continuum they created, with the only one this would not apply to being heavily weakened Morgoth
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@MasterOfArda
We call that area of effect. It is a very common plot convenience for fiction that characters capable of projecting and withstanding universal power, or similar, are able to harm each other with physical strikes that seemingly only collapse buildings. Hence, we have to consider their strikes as just as powerful as their energy blasts, but focused to a much smaller area, even though it does not technically make sense.
@Azathoth
Okay. Thank you for the reply. I suppose that it should be fine if somebody competent is willing to edit the Valar then.
However, we still have the problem of how we should appropriately scale the Maiar.
We call that area of effect. It is a very common plot convenience for fiction that characters capable of projecting and withstanding universal power, or similar, are able to harm each other with physical strikes that seemingly only collapse buildings. Hence, we have to consider their strikes as just as powerful as their energy blasts, but focused to a much smaller area, even though it does not technically make sense.
@Azathoth
Okay. Thank you for the reply. I suppose that it should be fine if somebody competent is willing to edit the Valar then.
However, we still have the problem of how we should appropriately scale the Maiar.
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We could base it off of how we originally scaled the 6-B Maiar from Osse, only an upgraded version. So Saruman, Sauron,Gandalf, the Balrogs, and other powerful Maiar would all be upgraded, as well as the elves proven to be on a similar level (Fingolfin, Feanor, Glorfindel, Galadriel, Elrond). Possibly Ancalagon as well, since Earendil took a day and a night to kill him with a Silmaril.
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At least 5-C (probably higher, but it would be difficult to determine who to scale to Arien), since Tilion wasn't a Maia with any special rank or recognition until he volunteered to take care of the Moon, while the Istari were especially strong and were some of the prize pupils of their respective Valar (Olorin for Manwe, Radagast for Yavanna, Saruman for Aule). Sauron at his peak however should be safe to scale to Arien, as he's certainly a top-tier Maia.
Note about Sauron: In The Two Towers Gandalf the White defeated Sauron in a mental contest, which means his White form might deserve a 4-C buff as well.
Note about Balrogs: They weren't low-tier Maiar. The Silmarillion states that they were "dreadful among the spirits of Melkor," so Balrogs were really quite powerful as far as spirits went.
Note about Sauron: In The Two Towers Gandalf the White defeated Sauron in a mental contest, which means his White form might deserve a 4-C buff as well.
Note about Balrogs: They weren't low-tier Maiar. The Silmarillion states that they were "dreadful among the spirits of Melkor," so Balrogs were really quite powerful as far as spirits went.
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