Lotr tiering revision 2.0

[MasterOfArda]

I noticed some problems with The Aiunr's tiers. Namely the enurmous disparity between Valar and Maiar.

Here is my suggestion:

Durin's bane and the Balrogs: The Balrogs should be somewhere around Planet Level. Given that there were a thousand balrogs pitted against Ungoliant, we can divide the accepted energy value per second by a thousand and Voila, small planet level Balrogs. But that still leaves the Ringwraith problem. So maybe just knock down the nazgul given that it took all nine of them to just fight Gandalf?

Arien: Arein should probably be Large star level for accelerating the sun. To orbit the earth it would have to be moving at 3% the speed of light. Its weight is 2 decillion kg so some simple math would tell us the energy to accelerate it to that speed would be 8*10^43 joules.

Sauron, Gothmog and Eonwe: These three are all high tier Maiar and should probably scale to the Valar. Other than that, there is really nothing to say.

 

[Promestein]

Definitely no to the first. That makes no sense.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Any other suggestions?

What do you think of the other two points?

 

[Antvasima]

I will ask Azathoth for input.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Source for a thousand balrogs? I heard at maximum there were 7 balrogs: "In the margin my father wrote: 'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed.'" -Christopher Tolkien

 

[MasterOfArda]

Well that is pretty conclusive. The result with seven balrogs is 8.6*10^32 joules per hit or planet level.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Alright. I think I know the best way to balance all this.

The low tier Maiar should be around small star level. The Balrogs, fighting Ungoliant is a small star level feat. Technically it is large star level, but given the length of the fight and Morgoth's presence potentially making it easier I think small star level is good. A questionable interpretation could knock it up to "At least Solar system level, possibly Multi-solar system level". The logic behind this is that the stars where made of the dew from Teleperion, which doing mass-energy conversion get us multi-galactic level, but like I said, it's questionable.

The mid-tier Maiar should have Large star level from the Arien feat. Gandalf would probably count as a mid tier Maiar, as well as Tillion and Osse.

The high-tier Maiar and Valar should have "At least Multi-Solar system level, at most Multi-Galactic" The Multi-Galactic rating is because of the aforementioned Teleperion feat, and multi-solar system comes from the Varda feat, which every way you look at is at least Multi-solar system. They should also have "Possibly MFTL+" speed from Varda scaling.

All Ainur should have low-godly Regenerationn. Sauron regenerated from fleeing as a spirit which is the requirement for low-godly

The main problem I noticed is the ringwraiths. I think the problem can be fixed by giving them a night form and day form, with "possibly as high as Multi-continent" at night and their current stats in the day.

Please tell me if there are any problems you notice.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am not informed enough to make a call. I am still waiting for Azathoth to get the time to evaluate this,

 

[MasterOfArda]

Sounds good.

In the meantime, what about the infinite speed ratings?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that Matthew was going to edit the profiles regarding the infinite speed ratings, but then his computer broke, so he can currently only use his phone.

Perhaps I can handle it after all, in lack of better options. Just post a list of all the LotR profiles that need to be edited on my message wall.

 

[Antvasima]

Just as an update, I adjusted all of the speed descriptions.

 

[Kaltias]

Isn't the enormous disparity justified by the fact that the Valar are actually supposed to be that much stronger?

Even at his absolute weakest and having lost almost all of his powers, Morgoth was still immensely stronger than Sauron, who is a very powerful Maiar.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we rate the Valar so high in their true forms because they are abstract concepts of the universe, and in their regular forms due to Varda creating multiple solar systems. I do not think that any of the Maiar have remotely displayed feats on that level.

 

[MasterOfArda]

I think you are forgetting that in the Akallabeth Sauron contended with the winds of Manwe.
Also, keep in mind that even the low-tier Balrogs where capable of Star Level feats, and just mid-tier Maiar like Arien have Large star Level feats like moving the sun.
And the fact that Osse caused problems for Ulmo, which wouldn't have happened if the gap was so big.
And these two from me:
1. On kindle, loc 402 "then the voices of the Anuir, like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and violas and organs, began to fashion the theme of illuvatar to a great music"
2. Loc 627 "With the valar came other spirits, of the same order as the Valar, but of less degree"
And this from the Vividen:
Ainundale Page 11, Del Rey 2nd Edition (2001): "And the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves."
This seems hard to attribute to PIS.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. There is, of course, the possibility that the Low 2-C ratings for the Valar are simply too high and based on speculation. Perhaps they are simply supposed to be "At least 4-A" period?

I will ask Azathoth for input.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Well, the Anulindale definitely counts as some sort of feat for all the Ainur. The question is what type?

I think this is best.

"At least High 3-A, possibly 2-C to 2-B"

Let me explain my reasoning.

If the Ainur shaped part of the universe by making physical laws that effect all of reality, which is what seems to be happening here, it would be a High 3-A.

If however, thy where shaping deeper concepts (like time and energy), then it would be Low 2-C.

They are also implied to have a disparity in power ("some well nigh as great as themselves"), then it could be 2-C to 2-B

 

[Antvasima]

That is not how this works. There is a massive gap between Low 2-C and 2-C, and the latter requires being able to destroy or create multiple universes at the same time.

 

[MasterOfArda]

I see what you mean.


What do you think?

 

[Jucaslucas]

Don't really buy star level Airen. At that point, LoTR's sun moved around the Earth, so it should be way smaller than the real one.

 

[The_Everlasting]

That sounds like a non-sequitur.

 

[Jucaslucas]

It was a ship that flew around the flat Earth and went under the sea back to Valinor, where she rested. Don't see how it can be as big as the real thing.

 

[MasterOfArda]

First, we need to decide on the Valar's stats.

I vote:

Speed: At least Hypersonic to High Hypersonic+ (was far superior to the Balrogs), probably Massively FTL+ (comparable to Varda, who could fly through the void of space)

Lifting strength: Stellar (Was comparable to Varda, who lifted the stars into the sky)

Striking strength: At least Small planet class (could spill oceans and vaporize enormous ranges during the Valaquenta)

Attack potency/Tier: At least Multi-Solar system level (was comparable to Varda, who created the stars), at most Multi-Galactic (also comparable to Yavana, who created Teleperion, which made the light that would be shaped into 300 septillion stars)

What do you think?

 

[The_Everlasting]

It was a ship that flew around the flat Earth and went under the sea back to Valinor, where she rested. Don't see how it can be as big as the real thing.

I'm pretty sure the LOTR Earth is round.

 

[Jucaslucas]

Only after the Numenorians tried to invade Valinor. It was flat beforehand.

Eru took the entire Valinor out of the world, so Airen and Tilion would be gone too. The sun and moon are probably real sized at that point though, but the Aunir shouldn't scale since it was Eru who did it.

 

[MasterOfArda]

I think we need to handle the Valar first

 

[Jucaslucas]

I mean, it's a geocentric universe with a flat Earth. Don't think the stars would be the same as real life either.

 

[MasterOfArda]

It is supposed to be before real life, so everything HAS to be the same scale.

 

[Jucaslucas]

Not really. Eru reshaped everything in the second age.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Everything? As far as i understood it he just reshaped earth, not Ea.

 

[MasterOfArda]

So what tier do you think Valar should be?

 

[MasterOfArda]

Can someone add links to the Valar pages?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I didn't realize this was going on. Well since I made something similar that has some stuff that was not addressed here, I'm to shamelessly plug my thread to see what people think.

 

[Hat_mchat]

I think it's easier and more logical to assume the last fruit of Laurelin is equal in power to our sun, else it would be an insufficient light and heat source for even a flat world comparable in size to our own @Jucaslucas

 

[MasterOfArda]

Alright. I think I know the best way to balance all this.

The low tier Maiar should be around small star level. The Balrogs, fighting Ungoliant is a small star level feat. Technically it is large star level, but given the length of the fight and Morgoth's presence potentially making it easier I think small star level is good. A questionable interpretation could knock it up to "At least Solar system level, possibly Multi-solar system level". The logic behind this is that the stars where made of the dew from Teleperion, which doing mass-energy conversion get us multi-galactic level, but like I said, it's questionable.

The mid-tier Maiar should have Large star level from the Arien feat. Gandalf would probably count as a mid tier Maiar, as well as Tillion and Osse.

The high-tier Maiar and Valar should have "At least Multi-Solar system level, at most Multi-Galactic" The Multi-Galactic rating is because of the aforementioned Teleperion feat, and multi-solar system comes from the Varda feat, which every way you look at is at least Multi-solar system. They should also have "Possibly MFTL+" speed from Varda scaling.

All Ainur should have low-godly Regenerationn. Sauron regenerated from fleeing as a spirit which is the requirement for low-godly

The main problem I noticed is the ringwraiths. I think the problem can be fixed by giving them a night form and day form, with "possibly as high as Multi-continent" at night and their current stats in the day.

Please tell me if there are any problems you notice.

Do you agree with this Hat mchat?

 

[Antvasima]

Let's wait for Azathoth to reply.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Sounds good.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I personally don't see anything wrong with Low 2-C Valar.

"Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words, began to fashion the theme of Il├║vatar to a great music; and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depths and into the heights, and the places of the dwelling of Il├║vatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void."

^All the Ainur singing creates existence in the void.

"Some of these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straightway discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered; but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first. Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound. But Il├║vatar sat and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war one upon another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged."

^Melkor on his own alters the entire song with his thoughts, and Eru must intervene.

"Then Il├║vatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Il├║vatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

Then the Ainur were afraid, and they did not yet comprehend the words that were said to them; and Melkor was filled with shame, of which came secret anger. But Il├║vatar arose in splendour, and he went forth from the fair regions that he had made for the Ainur; and the Ainur followed him.

But when they were come into the Void, Il├║vatar said to them: 'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; arid they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. And as they looked and wondered this World began to unfold its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew."

^Eru shows the Ainur what they have created within the void of nothingness.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation. Perhaps you could clarify the reason for their statistics within the profiles, or in a section of the main verse page?

What do you think about the other issues?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I can definitely do so. I want to do some major cleanup on the pages.

Which of the other issues, in particular?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, is the 3-B feat mentioned earlier for their manifestations reliable?

In addition, there is the issue of how to rate the Maiar, and if we should give the Valar MFTL+ speed as a minimum due to supposedly moving through outer space.?