LOTR Cosmics downgrade

[ZacharyGrossman273]

First off, where does it say the valar are beyond time? Second, what makes the Valar Low 2-C anot not just High 3-A+?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that you can ask Azathoth and Matthew about this.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

It is i The Silmarillio. They display traits, and feats that show how in their verse that they are above normal cosmic tier feats. The Valar are not 3D dimensional beings that Eru created, like the Wizards, Men and Elves. They are like Eru, but much weaker in power. Hop will aquire a direct quote another time. Hop has to go now.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

HIgh 3-A+ then, not low 2-C

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

@Loyalservantoflnti Why are you answering like they agreed with this?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Hop said "they are like eru, but much weaker". They are 4D, but weak 4D.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, they embody universal concepts. Or so I have been told.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

That doesen't mean they can manifest power on a universal scale. Otherwise we would need a 2-C Melkor upgrade anyways.

 

[Antvasima]

You should inform Matthew and Azathoth about this thread.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

bump

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Valar created the universe for Eru. And they embody Universal Concepts. They are Low 2-C, at least this is my understanding.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's literally the first chapter of the Silmarilion:

"There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Il├║vatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of me mind of Il├║vatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unison and harmony.

And it came to pass that Il├║vatar called together all the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme, unfolding to them things greater and more wonderful than he had yet revealed; and the glory of its beginning and the splendour of its end amazed the Ainur, so that they bowed before Il├║vatar and were silent.

Then Il├║vatar said to them: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I win sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.'

Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words, began to fashion the theme of Il├║vatar to a great music; and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depths and into the heights, and the places of the dwelling of Il├║vatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void. Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Il├║vatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Il├║vatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Il├║vatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Il├║vatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased."

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Low 2-c COLLECTIVELY. Individually they'd be High 3-A.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That's not how it works. Even a collective Low 2-C is still Low 2-C.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Yes but individually they'd be High 3-A. Eru should be 2-C for being "vastly above Melkor" not for being stronger than the Valar.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Melkor is a Valar.

And no, a mere division by 12 from Low 2-C is still Low 2-C.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Each Valar is also the origin of a constant in the universe, meaning that said universe would not exist if not for each of them.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

1/7th of a universe is a full universe?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You are thinking in terms of physical matter. You can't quantify single space-time continuums via size. Separate continuums certainly, but not a single.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Together they did it. It's the same reason John Egbert is High 3-A rather than Low 2-C.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I will await more input.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Matthew. If each concept is of universal scale, we have to rate them as Low 2-C, much like we do with the universal versions of the Marvel cosmic entities.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Yes but they embody things like wind and the stars

 

[Antvasima]

That is actually a good point. I will ask Azathoth about this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Irrelevant. They existed before time and created the universe out of a void.

And some do rule over Winds or Waters, but some embody Crafts & Forgery, Judgement and the Underworld, one Ainur embodies both Dreams & Desires, while another embodies space itself (The stars in the sky). One is responsible for all life on the Earth. One literally embodies the emotions of grief and sadness. One Ainur in particular, weaves the story of the universe

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"In the beginning Eru, the One, who in the Elvish tongue is named Il├║vatar, made the Ainur of his thought; and they made a great Music before him. In this Music the World was begun; for Il├║vatar made visible the song of the Ainur, and they beheld it as a light in the darkness. And many among them became enamoured of its beauty, and of its history which they saw beginning and unfolding as in a vision. Therefore Il├║vatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä.

Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World at the beginning of Time; and it was their task to achieve it, and by their labours to fulfil the vision which they had seen. Long they laboured in the regions of Eä, which are vast beyond the thought of Elves and Men, until in the time appointed was made Arda, the Kingdom of Earth. Then they put on the raiment of Earth and descended into it, and dwelt therein."

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Okay but the one embodying water shouuld only be High 3A and Melkor should be 2C

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

They are all equal besides Melkor. So all Low 2-C.

And is there a Statement of how stronger is Melkor than the rest? Cause if not, he'd be At least Low 2-C.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Melkor's profile says

" Universe level+ (Significantly stronger than all 13 other Valar. Second strongest being in existence. Created the concept of discord with his thoughts.)"

So he and ungoliath should be 2-C.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You can be significantly stronger than Low 2-C and still be Low 2-C. It's very hard to quantify the difference in power to destroy two Space-Time Continuums rather than One.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

But he's stronger than 14 low 2C entries at once

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Oh, you're actually right. He fought all the Valar at once.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

So Melkor should be 2C

 

[Antvasima]

"At least Low 2-C" seems safest, given how hard the difference between Low 2-C and 2-C is to quantify.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Alright, I agree.

 

[Antvasima]

So, does anything need to be changed, or should we close this thread?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I have updated Morgoth's and Ungoliant's pages.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This is concluded now.