- 1,322
- 94
The problems
So, currently, the LOTR pages are a bit of a mess.
The problem mainly comes from the downgrade being performed without any coherent plan.
Lets just start:
Gandalf
Gandalf the Grey is likely 6-B for fighting the Balrog.
Notice, not one of these ratings are likely 6-B. The Balrog (Who Gandalf scales to) is likely 6-B via scaling from a group of people, not one of which is likely 6-B or even legitimately 6-B.
Gandalf the White is 6-B for easily defeating Saruman and driving off Sauron in a mental battle.
Saruma
Saruman's true form is 6-B for being stronger than his Istari incarnation.
So, Saruman's true form is 6-B for being stronger than a 6-B character, which would make him at least 6-B.
Also, an Istari's unrestricted form, and his true, Anulindale form, are not the same.
Gothmog
Gothmog is 6-B via scaling from the average Balrog, who he is apparently far stronger than.
So, Gothmog is 6-B for being far stronger than a likely 6-B character.
Possible solutio
Some possible solutions to the power scaling problems.
Tier and AP
All the characters needing revision ranked in a rough order of power:
A list of all the characters needing revision ranked in a rough order of speed:
A list of all the characters needing revision ranked in a rough order of lifting strength:
A list of all the powers of various characters (Mostly Ainur with the Nazgul as well).
Respective powers of the (Good) Ainur
Note: Universal in parenthesis means all Ainur, not just good ones, have it.
The powers of the different (Good) Ainur, with all the characters that have it in parenthesis:
The powers of the different (Evil) Ainur, with all the characters that have it in parenthesis:
The powers of the different Nazgul, with all the characters that have it in parenthesis:
So, currently, the LOTR pages are a bit of a mess.
The problem mainly comes from the downgrade being performed without any coherent plan.
Lets just start:
Gandalf
Gandalf the Grey is likely 6-B for fighting the Balrog.
- The Balrog is likely 6-B for fighting Ungoliant and scaling to Sauron.
- Ungoliant is "At least 4-A, likely 3-B."
- Sauro is at least 6-B for being superior to Osse.
- Osse is 6-B via raising Numenor from the sea (Which was calced atCountry level+) and scaling from Arien
- Arie is 6-B for being one of the strongest Maiar.
- Osse is 6-B via raising Numenor from the sea (Which was calced atCountry level+) and scaling from Arien
Notice, not one of these ratings are likely 6-B. The Balrog (Who Gandalf scales to) is likely 6-B via scaling from a group of people, not one of which is likely 6-B or even legitimately 6-B.
Gandalf the White is 6-B for easily defeating Saruman and driving off Sauron in a mental battle.
- Saruman is 6-B for being stronger than Gandalf the Grey and comparable to Gandalf the White...Who, and I quote from Gandalf's page, "effortlessly dispatched Saruman". He also scales to Osse for some reason.
Saruma
Saruman's true form is 6-B for being stronger than his Istari incarnation.
So, Saruman's true form is 6-B for being stronger than a 6-B character, which would make him at least 6-B.
Also, an Istari's unrestricted form, and his true, Anulindale form, are not the same.
Gothmog
Gothmog is 6-B via scaling from the average Balrog, who he is apparently far stronger than.
So, Gothmog is 6-B for being far stronger than a likely 6-B character.
Possible solutio
Some possible solutions to the power scaling problems.
Tier and AP
All the characters needing revision ranked in a rough order of power:
- Weakened Saruman (After his staff is broken): Unknow
- The Nazgul (Excluding the Witch-King): At least Town level (Created a large fire on Weathertop), likely Country level at night (Matched Gandalf the Grey)
- The Balrogs (Including Gothmog): At least City level (Durin's Bane managed to do considerable damage to a large mountain during his fight with Gandalf. Durin's Bane is possibly one of the weaker, if not the weakest, Balrog, given that he fled from the War of Wrath), likely Country level (The Balrogs were consistently stated to be exceptionally powerful and dangerous, and should be comprable to the likes of Ossë)
- Glorfindel: At least City level, likely Country level (Fought of the Nazgul. Killed a Balrog, though dying himself in the process)
- Gandalf the Grey: At least City level (Managed to do considerable damage to a large mountain), likely Country level (Eventually managed to defeat Durin's Bane, despite dying in the process)
- Glaurung: Unknow. Likely Country level (One of the strongest creatures in Morgoth's army. Should be comparable to the Balrogs)
- Caracharoth: Unknow. Likely Country level (One of the strongest servants of Morgoth. Should comparable to the Balrogs)
- Ancalagon the Black: At least Mountain level (Destroyed the towers of Thangorodrim just by falling), likely Country level (One of the strongest servants of Morgoth. Dragons where the only creatures stronger than Balrogs, and Ancalagon was the strongest dragon)
- Galadriel: At least Country level, possibly higher with Nenya (The power of Nenya was so strong that only Sauron himself could breach it)
- Full power Saruman: At least Country level, possibly higher (As the White, he should be stronger than Galadriel)
- Osse: At least Country level, possibly higher (Rose Numenor from the sea, though the effort he put into it is unknown)
- The Witch-King: At least Country level, possibly higher at night (Gandalf the Grey stated that his power was not measured against the Witch-King, and was uncertain about who would win. Would have fought the White were it not for the arrival of the forces of Rohan)
- Gandalf the White: At least Country level, likely higher (Considerably stronger than before. Easily defeated Saruman. As the new White, he sould be stronger than Galadriel)
- Unrestricted Gandalf: At least Country level, likely far higher (Even stronger than before. As an Istari, he should be quite powerful, even among the Maiar)
- Unrestricted Saruman: At least Country level, likely far higher (Far stronger than before. Superior to Olorin)
- Arien: Unknow (Moves around the sun, though it is likely smaller than the real one)
- Eonwe: At least Country level, likely far higher (Was originally the strongest Maiar, though Sauron eventually surpassed him. Should be superior to Necromancer Sauron)
- Sauron: At least Country level, likely far higher (Even while practically crippled, he still terrified Olorin. Easily the strongest Maiar)
- Silmiral Carcharoth: At least Country level, likely far higher (Matched Huan, who had earlier defeated Sauron. Was fueled by one of the Silmirals, which was powerful enough to rekindle the Two Trees)
- Fingolfin: At least Multi-Solar System level, likely Multi-Galaxy level (Fought a weakened Morgoth, though even at this time his might was still "greatest of all things on earth", making him superior to the Valar)
- Feanor: At least Multi-Solar System level, likely Multi-Galaxy level (Was the strongest elf, making him superior to Fingolfin)
A list of all the characters needing revision ranked in a rough order of speed:
- Weakened Saruman: Unknow
- The Balrogs: Supersonic+ to High Hypersonic
- Glorfindel: Likely Supersonic+ to High Hypersonic (Fought a Balrog, presumably dodging his attacks)
- Gandalf the Grey: At least Peak Human (Fought the Nazgul), likely Supersonic+ to High Hypersonic (Fought against Durin's Bane, presumably dodging his attacks)
- Nazgul (Including the Witch-King): At least Peak Human, likely Supersonic+ to High Hypersonic (Fought against Gandalf the Grey, presumably dodging his attacks)
- Glaurung: Unknow. Likely Supersonic+ to High Hypersonic (One of the strongest creatures in Morgoth's army. Should be comparable to the Balrogs)
- Caracharoth: Unknow. Likely Supersonic+ to High Hypersonic (One of the strongest servants of Morgoth. Should comparable to the Balrogs)
- Osse: Unknow
- Full power Saruman: At least Peak Human, likely Supersonic+ to High Hypersonic, possibly higher (Superior to Gandalf the Grey)
- Gandalf the White: At least Peak Human, likely Supersonic+ to High Hypersonic, possibly higher (Easily defeated Saruman. At least as fast as before)
- Ancalagon the Black: Unknow. Possibly Supersonic+ to High Hypersonic, likely higher (One of the strongest servants of Morgoth. Should be faster than the Balrogs. Large enough to fall on an entire mountain range)
- Unrestricted Gandalf: Unknow
- Unrestricted Saruman: Unknow
- Eonwe: At least Supersonic+ to High Hypersonic, likely higher (Superior to the Balrogs). Likely Massively FTL+ reactions (Fought Morgoth)
- The Valar (Not including Varda and Manwe): Unknow. Likely Massively FTL+ attack speed (Comparable to Varda)
- Varda: Unknow. Likely Massively FTL+ attack speed (Lifted countless stars at presumably FTL speeds)
- Sauron: At least Supersonic+ to High Hypersonic, likely higher (Superior to the Balrogs). Likely Massively FTL+ reactions (Fought Manwe)
- Manwe: Unknow. Likely Massively FTL+ attack speed (Superior to Varda)
- Morgoth: Unknow. Likely Massively FTL+ attack speed (Superior to Manwe and Varda)
A list of all the characters needing revision ranked in a rough order of lifting strength:
- The Balrogs: Likely Class T (The Ainur shaped the world, including the mountains. In the Anulindale Morgoth pulled down mountain ranges made by other Ainur, including, presumably, the Balrogs)
- Glorfindel: Likely Class T (Comparable to the Balrogs)
- Gandalf the Grey: Likely Class T (Was able to grapple and physically contend with the Durin's Bane)
- Glaurung: At least Class K via sheer size, likely Class T (Should be physically superior to the Balrogs)
- Full power Saruman: Likely Class T, possibly higher (Superior to Gandalf the Grey)
- Osse: At least Class E, possibly higher (Lifted the full weight of Numenor)
- Ancalagon the Black: At least Class E, possibly higher via sheer size (The size of a small country)
- Gandalf the White: Possibly Class T, likely Class E (Should be physically superior to Osse)
- Untrestricted Gandalf: Likely Class E, possibly higher (far stronger than before)
- Unrestricted Saruman: Possibly Class E, likely higher (Superior to Olorin)
- Eonwe: At least Class E, likely far higher (Stronger than Curumo and Olorin)
- Sauron: At least Class E, likely far higher (Should be far stronger than Curumo and Olorin and at the very least comparable, if not superior, to Eonwe)
- The Valar: At least Steller, likely Universal (Comparable to Varda)
- Varda: At least Steller, likely Universal (Lifted all the stars into the sky, which constitute the overwhelming majority of the weight of the universe. At the very least lifted one star at a time)
- Manwe: At least Steller, likely Universal (Superior to Varda)
- Morgoth: At least Steller, likely Universal (Superior to Manwe and Varda)
A list of all the powers of various characters (Mostly Ainur with the Nazgul as well).
Respective powers of the (Good) Ainur
Note: Universal in parenthesis means all Ainur, not just good ones, have it.
The powers of the different (Good) Ainur, with all the characters that have it in parenthesis:
- Type 1, 3 and 4 immortality (Universal): Types one is obvious, as the Ainur never age, type 4 is from protection from Eru, and type three is from Regenerationn.
- Low-godly Regenerationn (Universal): The Ainur are body-less spirits who can create physical forms for themselves. Sauron also displayed the ability to regenerate from just a spirit (Twice), and he is never stated to be an exception.
- Resurrection (Universal): Both Sauron and Gandalf showcased the ability to come back from the dead. Ainur can create knew bodies for themselves after death, allowing them to come back.
- Transmutation (Universal): The Ainur forged Arda from a formless rock, which implies the ability to change its substance. The LOTR wiki also touches on this.
- Telekinesis (Universal): Connected to the above, the Ainur had to have some form of telekinesis to perform their feats such as raising mountains or making valleys.
- Hindsight and foresight (Universal): "All that was past they could fully perceive". Additionally, in Morgoth's ring it was stated that they could see the future.
- Shapeshifting (Universal): Another obvious one, for similar reasons as regen. The Ainur are immortal spirits that can take any form they so desired, though it should be noted most dark Ainur lost this ability.
- Size alteration (Universal): An application of shapeshifting. Given how Morgoth can alter his size and Yavana can turn into a huge tree it seems fair to give this to them.
- Flight (Universal): The Ainur traveled through empty space to reach Arda.
- Reality warping (True forms): The true forms of the Ainur literally built reality and warped the physical laws of it with their voice alone.
- Conceptual manipulation (True forms): The Ainur made the laws of reality, and the current reason for the Valar's Low 2-C rating is creating concepts.
- Intangibility/Non-corporeality (Universal): The Ainur are consistently stated to be non-corporeal spirits, with the Valar being accepted as such. In addition Sauron regenerated from a sprit. They are definitely intangible/non-corporal at least in spirit form, likely in physical form, and definitely in their true, Low 2-C selves.
- Elemental manipulation (Universal): The Ainur built all of Arda and each one of them have control over various aspects of it, such as Osse controlling the water and Ilmare controlling the light.
- Water manipulation (Osse, Uinen, Ulmo and Gandalf): Each of these Ainur (Except for Gandalf) have control over the element of water, with Uinen even embodying it to some extent and Osse has complete control over it, only limited by Ulmo. Gandalf also helped create and shape the wave that defeated the Nazgul.
- Weather manipulation (Osse, Ulmo, Manwe and possibly Gandalf): Osse was able to create waves and storms in the ocean, and Ulmo was very similar to Osse, just to a higher degree. It should also be noted that weather manipulation and storm manipulation are not the same (Though Osse can do both). Waves and volcanos are just as much weather as lightning and rain. Manwe is also the god of the air and the skies. Gandalf created thunder and lightning during his fight with Durin's Bane which might be weather manipulation.
- Fire manipulation (Arien, Gandalf and Aule): Arien is the embodiment of the Sun, which is pretty much a ball of fire, and was even refered as an island of fire in earlier versions. Also, in fiction, the Sun is usally considered a ball of fire, despite not being. Gandalf has used fire several times, and Aule controls the earth, naturally having the powers of Sauron, his inferior.
- Light manipulation (Gandalf, Ilmare and Varda): Gandalf has shown the ability to create light before, such as during his expedition into Moria. Ilmare is a servant of Varda, even so far as to be one of her handmaidens. Varda herself created the stars and is pretty much the embodiment of light
- Illusion creation (Melian and Irmo): Melian created a shield known as the Griddle of Melian around Doriath causing confusion in invaders. Irmo is the god of dreams and even controls an entire realm of dreams. He should also have the powers of inferior Maiar like Melian.
The powers of the different (Evil) Ainur, with all the characters that have it in parenthesis:
- Magma manipulation (The Balrogs and probably Sauron): The Balrogs are creatures of fire and shadow (Darkness), to the point that they wield weapons made of lava. These weapons can obviously not be made normally and have to be fueled by some character to maintain their shape, i.e. the Balrogs. Sauron is described as their utter superior, and repeatedly stated to be either the greatest of Morgoth's servants with names, or just the greatest in general
- Fire manipulation (The Balrogs and Sauron): Fire manipulation is obvious, since the Balrogs where creatures made out of fire and wielding weapons of fire and magma. Sauron also has fire manipulation, being magically superior to the Witch-King, who lit a sword on fire.
- Darkness manipulation (The Balrogs and probably Sauron): Connected to the above, the Balrogs also consist of shadow, which moves with them. Sauron is considered their superior, with presumably similar powers.
- Fear manipulation (Sauron and possibly the Balrogs): The Balrogs and Sauron where both surrounded by an aura of unnatural fear, such as when Sauron terrified the defenders of first age Minas Tirith. The Balrogs also terrified both the Dwarves and goblins, though this could be simple intimation.
- Metal manipulation (Sauron): Sauron is magically superior to the Witch-King, who could rust and weaken the metal gate of Minas Tirith.
- Illusion creation (Sauron): Sauron can create illusions and phantoms to terrify and confuse his opponents, such as when he created a vision of Gorlim's wife.
- Necromancy (Sauron): By definition Sauron possesses this, being the Necromancer. even if he cannot raise the dead, whatever Sauron practices is necromancy.
The powers of the different Nazgul, with all the characters that have it in parenthesis:
- The Black Breath (The Nazgul): The Black Breath is a deadly aura that surrounds the Nazgul. It is a cross between fear and poison manipulation, weakening enemies and terrifying them.
- Metal manipulation (The Witch-King): The Witch-King could rust and weaken the metal gate of Minas Tirith.
- Fire manipulation (The Witch-King): The Witch-King lit his blade on fire during the battle of Pelennor fields, as well as causing the gate of Minas Tirith to explode.
