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Lord English vs God Emperor of Mankind

I don't know much about Lord English, but I would give it to GEoM due to experence. Knowlege is power as the Blood Ravens say. It would provide him the edge to take him. Although it would be a very hard win.
 
Taking everything into account, LE and the GEoM should both operate on what is at least a 12-D level. Because of this, I really have no idea.
 
Knowing what we do now from the A7 animation, this is even more complicated. He has the normal conditional immortality of God-Tiers, which is enforced by paradox space, but he destroyed his judgment clock, leaving it unconditional. This very closely straddles type 5, since only objects infused with the omnicient spheres can override this immortality. This is enforced by Paradox Space itself.

Doing a semi-formal combinetric analysis:

Each Genesis Frog (equivalent to some definitions of a multiverse, but for simplicity i'm just refering to it as it's own thing here) in paradox space holds an entire universe (4-D), and every possible timeline of that universe, including failed ones (for every point T in the time dimension of the universe, there is an infinite variety of EACH physical dimension, bringing it up to 5-D, minimum).

Each of those resides in the Furthest Ring making it 7-D, (since those 5-D Genesis Frogs are embedded into a 3-D space within the furthest ring, requiring at least two extra dimensions other than the ones shown for them to expand into)

The Furthest Ring itself is embedded in Paradox Space, which contains an infinite amount of THOSE as well. So for Paradox Space, we come to an infinite amount 8-D configurations.

I'm not sure how either of them got classified as 12-D, to be honest. That's never supported by any feats in Homestuck, so LE is definitely not. And unless GEoM has command of a Multiverse outside a Multiverse outside a Multiverse, he isn't either. As far as I have read, the WH40K verse is only at most 5-D, or even simply two 4-D realms. Remember, a dimension from a combinetrical perspective (what is typically enforced here) is an infinite amount of 0-D points, not just 2 seperate states. Unless there's an infinite 'depth' to the warp instead of just being in/out of it, (apart from the heavily distorted 4-D spacetime it holds), I don't think that would count. Someone correct me if i'm wrong though, i'm curious about the possible higher-dimensionality of it.
 
@Voidchimera

The Warp is a 8-12 dimensional space filled with 8-12 dimensional beings. The specifics are uncertain.

LE is Low 1-B for existing outside the totality of what is likely a string-theory multiverse.
 
Promestein said:
@Voidchimera
The Warp is a 8-12 dimensional space filled with 8-12 dimensional beings. The specifics are uncertain.

LE is Low 1-B for existing outside the totality of what is likely a string-theory multiverse.
Click to expand...
But Homestuck doesn't use the string theory multiverse. It isn't even a concept. It is entirely replaced by paradox space (hence why I didn't use multiverse to describe it), which is it's own entity, and is even hinted at having some form of sentience.

Also can you link the calc's for the 8-12 dimensional feats? I can't find that on the wiki, or anywhere else for that matter. All i've seen it refered to is 'higher', and they use the word 'dimension' often in a way that conflicts with the mathmatical defintion that this website uses.
 
@Voidchimera

Actually, the String Theory multiverse is likely supposed to be a thing in Homestuck. Back in Problem Sleuth, which iirc, Hussie stated was supposed to have the same laws of physics and such, DMK ripping the universe in half revealed the extradimensional strings behind it.

As for the Emperor, the Warp does not function in the same way as the space we perceive. It's been referred to as containing a various number of dimensions, though the lowest I've seen is 8. And yes, this is dimensions used in the proper context, as it was being talked about in comparison to realspace's 4 dimensions. In the same story, the moment there is a Warp-realspace overlap, the Warp essentially "assimilates" the 4 dimensions of realspace and the overlap becomes 12-D space. Obviously this is not how real life works, but the Warp is unbound by physics and laws as we know them, so this whole "assimilation" process falls in line with its overall idea.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
@Voidchimera
Actually, the String Theory multiverse is likely supposed to be a thing in Homestuck. Back in Problem Sleuth, which iirc, Hussie stated was supposed to have the same laws of physics and such, DMK ripping the universe in half revealed the extradimensional strings behind it.

(Snipped warp dimensionality bs)
Click to expand...
A) That's PS, not Homestuck. They have VERY different rules, mythos, etc, to the point they actually barely overlap at all. Just because they're by the same guy does not mean they follow anywhere near the same rules. Paradox Space isn't even mentioned in PS. And finally, Feats > Statments. Normal string-theory multiverse is NEVER shown, and the -verses we do get are VASTLY different in both scope and rules.

B) I actually explained this in a private message, but i'll restate it here.

Turns out, if you calculate dimensionality the ******** WH40K way, it makes LE MORE overpowered, since it means that Paradox Space would be 15-D (a 5-D embedded in another 5-D embedded in another 5-D), and literally nothing GoEM can do will override Paradox Space's enforcement of his immortality, which was the only slight fighting chance GoEM had before (which still seems like a streach for him, even if PS is the same dimensionality of Rift Space). Now, LE either kills him, or gets mindraped by GoEM, but it still doesn't matter because he's immortal and GoEM will eventually die when humanity does. Since the WH40K universe still has a finite amount of energy (warp space is just an extension, and relies on sentient life, so isn't a limitless power source), the second law of thermodynamics still applies. He's bound to humanity and will die when they inevitbly do when the last star burns out.


So, those are your options. Calculate dimensionality the real life/HS way, and put them on relatively equal ground (with LE still having a pretty much unbeatable advantage), or calculate it the WH40K way and make LE a god compared to GEoM.
 
A. The mythos is very different and the rules of SBURB are new, but that doesn't mean the world itself is entirely different. There's a pretty good number of overlapping elements that point to more of a connection than just "it was written by the same guy".

B. Cool. Doesn't really matter if it doesn't work that way in real life. It works that way in 40k, because that's just what the Warp is. Attempting to say "you can't do that" when it's exactly what happened in the story doesn't change things.

Also, don't really know where you got the idea the Warp was finite when it is explicitly stated to be infinite in scope pretty much every single time it's referred to as well as connecting to countless worlds. Hell, in the Warp new universes can simply be created with a stray thought.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
A. The mythos is very different and the rules of SBURB are new, but that doesn't mean the world itself is entirely different. There's a pretty good number of overlapping elements that point to more of a connection than just "it was written by the same guy".
B. Cool. Doesn't really matter if it doesn't work that way in real life. It works that way in 40k, because that's just what the Warp is. Attempting to say "you can't do that" when it's exactly what happened in the story doesn't change things.

Also, don't really know where you got the idea the Warp was finite when it is explicitly stated to be infinite in scope pretty much every single time it's referred to as well as connecting to countless worlds. Hell, in the Warp new universes can simply be created with a stray thought.
Click to expand...
A) Doesn't matter, Homestuck canon >> PS canon. Where they conflict (like here), HS overrides it every time. Not even sure why this is up for debate? Homestuck very clearly has a vastly different -verse structure. Infinite unconventional multiverses (it's almost a misnomer to even call them multiverses, really) inside another 'multiverse'.

B) That's why I gave both explianations, depending on what -verse they were fighting in. The result is pretty similar either way. LE's time powers stomp, he can just travel to a point trillions of years in the future (or however long it takes) where GEoM is dead.

C) From what I understand, the Warp is a result of sentient life, and where it doesn't exist (ie deep intergalactic space), neither does the warp, not in that form anyway. It may be infinite, but if that is the case, it is not eternal, because our universe itself is not. Again, kinda a null point because of his time powers anyway, but it's something to think about.
 
A. That's the thing, though. They don't conflict. Especially when we're shown the Furthest Ring is higher dimensional space linked to all universes, and Horrorterrors are shown to appear in both Problem Sleuth and Homestuck. It's clear they have some kind of link, especially since not only does one of the exact same Horrorterrors appear in both (in person in PS and described via lore in HS), but other mechanics of the universes are shown to be similar as well. It's not like Problem Sleuth showing allusions to String Theory means Homestuck does not also share that basic cosmology, especially when the two appear to be linked via higher dimensional structures.

B. The Emperor doesn't die of old age, actually. He's perpetual. Every time he dies, he comes back.

C. The Warp is the result of sentient life, yes. Sentient life from countless times in an infinite number of realities, all feeding a group of beings unbound by the nature of causality. The emotions of life in 40k's galaxy fuels the Chaos Gods, but so do an infinite number of other beings from other worlds completely disconnected to theirs.
 
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Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
A. That's the thing, though. They don't conflict. Especially when we're shown the Furthest Ring is higher dimensional space linked to all universes, and Horrorterrors are shown to appear in both Problem Sleuth and Homestuck. It's clear they have some kind of link, especially since not only does one of the exact same Horrorterrors appear in both (in person in PS and described via lore in HS), but other mechanics of the universes are shown to be similar as well. It's not like Problem Sleuth showing allusions to String Theory means Homestuck does not also share that basic cosmology, especially when the two appear to be linked via higher dimensional structures.
B. The Emperor doesn't die of old age, actually. He's perpetual. Every time he dies, he comes back.

C. The Warp is the result of sentient life, yes. Sentient life from countless times in an infinite number of realities, all feeding a group of beings unbound by the nature of causality. The emotions of life in 40k's galaxy fuels the Chaos Gods, but so do an infinite number of other beings from other worlds completely disconnected to theirs.
Click to expand...
A) That makes LE even MORE overpowered then. Also, if the furthest ring and associated area is 12-D, and paradox space still contains every alt-version of THAT (since failed timelines are still a thing there), doesn't it make Paradox space 13-D minimum?

B) What brings him back? Can he survive the end of the universe? Because nothing's stopping LE from just going there.

C) Oh, cool. So that means, since there are an infinite number of realities, at any time T into the future of the universe, there's still an infinity/(some f(T)) amount of ones that still have sentient life, so the warp IS truely eternal. Guess that's settled haha.
 
Voidchimera said:
A) That makes LE even MORE overpowered then. Also, if the furthest ring and associated area is 12-D, and paradox space still contains every alt-version of THAT (since failed timelines are still a thing there), doesn't it make Paradox space 13-D minimum?

B) What brings him back? Can he survive the end of the universe? Because nothing's stopping LE from just going there.

C) Oh, cool. So that means, since there are an infinite number of realities, at any time T into the future of the universe, there's still an infinity/(some f(T)) amount of ones that still have sentient life, so the warp IS truely eternal. Guess that's settled haha.
Click to expand...
A) Presumably just a higher end of 12-D, I would assume.

B) Nothing in particular. He just comes back, as far as I know. The exact mechanics of the perpetuals are never really touched on. In fact, one of the few things made certain is that only a substance called "fulgurite" can kill them off, permanently. However, Vulkan (another perpetual) was stabbed in the heart with a shard of fulgurite and still eventually revived, so even that may just be misinformation.

C) Pretty much, yeah.
 
Just wanted to add that as far as we know the Emperor cannot die of old age, so he could survive to the end of the universe. And he can come back from any wounds or injury that would have slain him due to him being a Perpetual (that would have taken alot anyway because it took a Chaos Corrupted Horus to wound him, and the Emperor was not even trying and could have won that one if he did not care for Horus).
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
A) Presumably just a higher end of 12-D, I would assume.

B) Nothing in particular. He just comes back, as far as I know. The exact mechanics of the perpetuals are never really touched on. In fact, one of the few things made certain is that only a substance called "fulgurite" can kill them off, permanently. However, Vulkan (another perpetual) was stabbed in the heart with a shard of fulgurite and still eventually revived, so even that may just be misinformation.
Click to expand...
How would it not be? If the Furthest Ring itself is 12-D, and there is an infinite variation of all timelines in it, does that not require an extra dimension? That's quite literally some defintions of a multiverse.

That makes it kinda tough. We know LE can destroy universes on a whim (his command over his power is even versitile enough to bind the life of the Alternian's universe to Snowman, he didn't even need to be there personally to do it), would that perpetuality allow him to survive even that? And if not would GEoM be able to survive in the Warp indefinitely? And even then, would THAT be resistant to LE's absurd powers? Lots of questions, but if the answer to any of them is no this might be a stomp.
 
Voidchimera said:
How would it not be? If the Furthest Ring itself is 12-D, and there is an infinite variation of all timelines in it, does that not require an extra dimension? That's quite literally some defintions of a multiverse.

That makes it kinda tough. We know LE can destroy universes on a whim (his command over his power is even versitile enough to bind the life of the Alternian's universe to Snowman, he didn't even need to be there personally to do it), would that perpetuality allow him to survive even that? And if not would GEoM be able to survive in the Warp indefinitely? And even then, would THAT be resistant to LE's absurd powers? Lots of questions, but if the answer to any of them is no this might be a stomp.
Click to expand...
Because presumably the timelines within the Furthest Ring are not on the same level as the Furthest Ring. The Ring should be the highest dimensional thing in the entire structure since most of it seems to exist beyond the rest of the multiverse.

The GEoM can presumably survive quite a lot, especially since he's not going to need his body to do so. That's what makes this so tough.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Voidchimera said:
How would it not be? If the Furthest Ring itself is 12-D, and there is an infinite variation of all timelines in it, does that not require an extra dimension? That's quite literally some defintions of a multiverse.

That makes it kinda tough. We know LE can destroy universes on a whim (his command over his power is even versitile enough to bind the life of the Alternian's universe to Snowman, he didn't even need to be there personally to do it), would that perpetuality allow him to survive even that? And if not would GEoM be able to survive in the Warp indefinitely? And even then, would THAT be resistant to LE's absurd powers? Lots of questions, but if the answer to any of them is no this might be a stomp.
Click to expand...
Because presumably the timelines within the Furthest Ring are not on the same level as the Furthest Ring. The Ring should be the highest dimensional thing in the entire structure since most of it seems to exist beyond the rest of the multiverse.
The GEoM can presumably survive quite a lot, especially since he's not going to need his body to do so. That's what makes this so tough.
Click to expand...
This is kinda hard due to the fact that the Emperor does not need his body to survive. This is closer than I originaly thought it was. Kinda undecided now. But the Emperor himself is holding back legions of demons and the four gods of Chaos himself on Terra (All of them and their forces at once). I do belive that would be a sign that he can survive forces that are cappble of destroying universes with his powers.
 
Also, Id like to point out that Uh The emperor was able to withstand Horus (Amped up by ALL Four chaos gods) for a good while.. And Chaos gods are like.. Really powerful cosmic entities.. So I dunno if He could actually survive Lord Englishes attack

GeoM on the golden throne however...
 
G2E said:
Ultrasnip!
Click to expand...
It's not really just universe-killing though, it's Multiverse killing. Plus, since GEoM's trans-universality is up in the air, there is another factor that kinda ignores that. LE bends time to his whim, entering a Universe at the end, then traveling back to the beginning to ensure his arrival. Who says he couldn't just stop GEoM from being born? Or, if the timeline doesn't allow such direct altercations, I don't see how GEoM could stop LE from just starting a SBURB session, 'Scratching' the WH4K universe, and editing THAT new timeline to stop him from ever being born (it's shown that a scratch gives him a chance to take nearly total control of a timeline, and there's no reason he couldn't just do it himself)? That strategy alone....
 
GeoM trans-universality up in the air? what do you mean?

creating and destroying universes with a random thought doesnt warrant to this?
 
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