LMK additions #2

[Arency]

1. Give concept AE to Chaos
While It has been accepted that Chaos governs the universe’s reality and being the opposite to Fate/Destiny, Chaos should have AE type 1 concept type 2 (However, users of this power is just gonna be limited to power) since it's accepted that Fate is a concept type 2.

2. Give fate users limited AE type 1 concept type 2 (only applies to power)
Since it has been accepted that the power of Fate is conceptual, any user who wields the power should gain limited AE type 1 concept type 2 (only for power).

3. Giving a mechanism to Sun Wukong’s invulnerability
Sun Wukong is the same as MK as they are born with the same stones that contain power of Fate here (2:38) so Sun Wukong’s invulnerability should be a result of his passive conceptual manipulation as the invulnerability is connected with his power which is accepted and it extends to his soul and mind which is accepted.
It should also extend to info2/data as it’s accepted that the power of Fate governs over the aspect, so the only way of bypassing Wukong’s invulnerabilities is via CM capabilities.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

You should post it here or atleast add a tag

Lego Monkie Kid General Discussion Thread

Since MK profile from Lego Monkie Kid created by me is deleted and I found that I am not the only person who has interest in the series, I decide to open this general discussion thread.

vsbattles.com

 

[Arency]

You should post it here or atleast add a tag

Lego Monkie Kid General Discussion Thread

Since MK profile from Lego Monkie Kid created by me is deleted and I found that I am not the only person who has interest in the series, I decide to open this general discussion thread.

vsbattles.com

I mean... I don't usually add tags to my crts ngl (Because I don't pay attention to it tbh)

But I'll prob add it next time (even tho... it's not written in the rules so....)

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

I mean... I don't usually add tags to my crts ngl (Because I don't pay attention to it tbh)

But I'll prob add it next time (even tho... it's not written in the rules so....)

The same thing happens to me. lol

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Why would the users get it? They'd need to show the become it in some capacity when using it to gain AE/CM.

Not sure on the Invulnerability one.

 

[CasperSenar]

Why would the users get it? They'd need to show the become it in some capacity when using it to gain AE/CM.

Not sure on the Invulnerability one.

It's AE just limited to the power, doesn't include their existence since it's accepted that their powers is conceptual

 

[LordGriffin1000]

It's AE just limited to the power, doesn't include their existence since it's accepted that their powers is conceptual

If I'm reading that right, that's not fully needed...

That's like me saying since this special fire is considered inorganic and conceptual and I can manipulate it, I should get limited inorganic physiology added to my powers because the fire I use has it.

The powers existence as abstract in nature wouldn't apply to the user in any capacity unless they become it in some way. For the characters who use it, you'd only need to write Chaos Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2)(Insert it's feats and how it's conceptual) but they don't need limited AE on their page just because their using the power.

 

[CasperSenar]

If I'm reading that right, that's not fully needed...

That's like me saying since this special fire is considered inorganic and conceptual and I can manipulate it, I should get limited inorganic physiology added to my powers because the fire I use has it.

The powers existence as abstract in nature wouldn't apply to the user in any capacity unless they become it in some way. For the characters who use it, you'd only need to write Chaos Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2)(Insert it's feats and how it's conceptual) but they don't need limited AE on their page just because their using the power.

I mean it's still useful to index it as such as someone with powernull/absorption/modification would need to have CM in order effect the user's power

 

[Arency]

If I'm reading that right, that's not fully needed...

That's like me saying since this special fire is considered inorganic and conceptual and I can manipulate it, I should get limited inorganic physiology added to my powers because the fire I use has it.

The powers existence as abstract in nature wouldn't apply to the user in any capacity unless they become it in some way. For the characters who use it, you'd only need to write Chaos Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2)(Insert it's feats and how it's conceptual) but they don't need limited AE on their page just because their using the power.

Assuming you agree with point 1 and 2 (but change ae to cm), what are your doubts on the mechanism invul?

 

[CasperSenar]

If I'm reading that right, that's not fully needed...

That's like me saying since this special fire is considered inorganic and conceptual and I can manipulate it, I should get limited inorganic physiology added to my powers because the fire I use has it.

The powers existence as abstract in nature wouldn't apply to the user in any capacity unless they become it in some way. For the characters who use it, you'd only need to write Chaos Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2)(Insert it's feats and how it's conceptual) but they don't need limited AE on their page just because their using the power.

I mean it's still useful to index it as such as someone with powernull/absorption/modification would need to have CM in order effect the user's power

bump

 

[CasperSenar]

If I'm reading that right, that's not fully needed...

That's like me saying since this special fire is considered inorganic and conceptual and I can manipulate it, I should get limited inorganic physiology added to my powers because the fire I use has it.

The powers existence as abstract in nature wouldn't apply to the user in any capacity unless they become it in some way. For the characters who use it, you'd only need to write Chaos Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2)(Insert it's feats and how it's conceptual) but they don't need limited AE on their page just because their using the power.

I mean it's still useful to index it as such as someone with powernull/absorption/modification would need to have CM in order effect the user's power

Sorry but do you still want to evaluate the thread? You can notify us if you are busy

 

[CasperSenar]

bump

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I mean it's still useful to index it as such as someone with powernull/absorption/modification would need to have CM in order effect the user's power

They wouldn't need CM, just show their nulling extend to conceptual stuff. Otherwise, I agree with Griffin on that point.

As for invulnerability... I don't see how they even have justification for having the ability looking at the profile, much less how MK being fated to have a monkey form like Wukong means fate/concept is the mechanism of said invulnerability. I would straight advocate for removing the ability ngl.

Which thread accepted these characters as having invulnerability in the first place?

 

[Arency]

They wouldn't need CM, just show their nulling extend to conceptual stuff. Otherwise, I agree with Griffin on that point.

As for invulnerability... I don't see how they even have justification for having the ability looking at the profile, much less how MK being fated to have a monkey form like Wukong means fate/concept is the mechanism of said invulnerability. I would straight advocate for removing the ability ngl.

Which thread accepted these characters as having invulnerability in the first place?

I believe they got it around 2023 for invul which I forgot which thread.

But what are your thoughts on the mechanism? Since Wukong's invulnerability allows him to tank an attack that's much more powerful than himself (like Azure's slash when he's still sealed) and when he loses his power (which is conceptual), he lost his invulnerability

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That his powers have an origin of concept does not mean he has a conceptual invulnerability. Specially when it's seemingly not even elaborated, judging with how it is applied in the profiles.

 

[Arency]

That his powers have an origin of concept does not mean he has a conceptual invulnerability. Specially when it's seemingly not even elaborated, judging with how it is applied in the profiles.

Well, we did saw when Azure Lion got the power of fate (which is the same as Wukong's) he's able to regenerate himself from reality erasure which means they can use their conceptual power on themselves here (8:44)

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

But that immediately goes against invulnerability and would instead be regen from EE

 

[CasperSenar]

But that immediately goes against invulnerability and would instead be regen from EE

I mean we now know that fate users can use their power on themselves. Wukong should still have invul since there's multitude of statements that he has it + tank hits from characters much stronger than him. And then the one time Sun Wukong loses his power, his invulnerability also disappears. Which can only mean his conceptual power was the one providing his invulnerability

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I mean we now know that fate users can use their power on themselves. Wukong should still have invul since there's multitude of statements that he has it + tank hits from characters much stronger than him. And then the one time Sun Wukong loses his power, his invulnerability also disappears. Which can only mean his conceptual power was the one providing his invulnerability

Sure, his abilities come from (whatever conceptual origin), but still, that does not mean the invulnerability itself is conceptual in mechanism. That would require something along the lines of "the concept of damage is negated", which would require an explicit showing or statement. And at least me personally, I greatly dislike reasoning extreme abilities in this manner (though other staff do accept them, which is fair enough).

Them being reiterated as invulnerable within the confines of the series does not mean they satisfy our wiki standards for the ability.

 

[CasperSenar]

Sure, his abilities come from (whatever conceptual origin), but still, that does not mean the invulnerability itself is conceptual in mechanism. That would require something along the lines of "the concept of damage is negated", which would require an explicit showing or statement. And at least me personally, I greatly dislike reasoning extreme abilities in this manner (though other staff do accept them, which is fair enough).

Them being reiterated as invulnerable within the confines of the series does not mean they satisfy our wiki standards for the ability.

I mean profiles that have conceptual invul (like Kratos) dont really need statements like concept of damage is negated. Yes I know statements alone isn't sufficient but they are highly good supporting evidence considering its proven that Fate users can use the power on themselves + when Wukong loses the power, he lost his invulnerability. I don't really think there's any other interpretation except conceptual invul

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I mean profiles that have conceptual invul (like Kratos) dont really need statements like concept of damage is negated. Yes I know statements alone isn't sufficient but they are highly good supporting evidence considering its proven that Fate users can use the power on themselves + when Wukong loses the power, he lost his invulnerability. I don't really think there's any other interpretation except conceptual invul

Believe me, I was the only staff that disagreed with Kratos getting that in the first place, lol

 

[CasperSenar]

Believe me, I was the only staff that disagreed with Kratos getting that in the first place, lol

Can you agree to this one then so Kratos isn't the only one who has conceptual invul

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Can you agree to this one then so Kratos isn't the only one who has conceptual invul

No

 

[CasperSenar]

No

Well would you agree to a possibly/likely rating at least? Since every other staff accepts the ability except one

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

What I can is tag people to evaluate further.

@Planck69 @Firestorm808 @Vietthai96 @Armorchompy would you be willing to help here?

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to evaluate here. Every argument is "this has been accepted" without explaining why the other ability is a natural consequence. The only thing I can say with confidence is that the invulnerability originating from something isn't a real mechanism. If this is how threads for the verse have been conducted in the past I am quite suspicious of the "accepted" abilities.

Kratos' invul also sucks by the way

 

[CasperSenar]

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to evaluate here. Every argument is "this has been accepted" without explaining why the other ability is a natural consequence. The only thing I can say with confidence is that the invulnerability originating from something isn't a real mechanism. If this is how threads for the verse have been conducted in the past I am quite suspicious of the "accepted" abilities.

Kratos' invul also sucks by the way

Yes I know statements alone isn't sufficient but they are highly good supporting evidence considering its proven that Fate users can use the power on themselves + when Wukong loses the power, he lost his invulnerability. I don't really think there's any other interpretation except conceptual invul

What you think of this?

 

[Armorchompy]

I think it sounds like unjustifiable conjecture, and also you didn't post scans so I'm not capable of verifying if what you're stating is even true.

 

[CasperSenar]

I think it sounds like conjecture and also you didn't post scans.

The scans for using the power on themselves was shown to Lephyr but scans wukong losing his power, I'll share it.

Here (3:07) when Wukong loses his power. Here (4:55), here (0:57) and here (2:34) Wukong loses his invulnerability

Also one more thing. MK who directly stated has the same powers as Sun Wukong (4:29) when his power get limited, Wukong stated that he will lose his invulnerability (7:34)

 

[Armorchompy]

What is the invulnerability even from? I'm looking through a few profiles and it just looks like they're said to be invincible or whatever, is there more?

 

[CasperSenar]

What is the invulnerability even from? I'm looking through a few profiles and it just looks like they're said to be invincible or whatever, is there more?

Well from multitude of statements but also feats like tanking hits much stronger than themselves. An example here (10:12) when Wukong got sealed into the scroll and when you enter it, there's an entirely different universe which means Sun Wukong is likely uncountably smaller (10:43). But then when Azure split the scroll that has Sun Wukong inside (7:33), MK later assures his friend that Sun Wukong would survive the slash because of his invulnerability despite being in the small seal (1:30) (which later is confirmed that he remains undamaged (9:20)). Also there's another feat such as Wukong being shown to be invulnerable to the Samadhi Fire here (8:17) despite the fire stated it can burn through the very fabric of reality (3:56)

 

[Armorchompy]

Well from multitude of statements but also feats like tanking hits much stronger than themselves. An example here (10:12) when Wukong got sealed into the scroll and when you enter it, there's an entirely different universe which means Sun Wukong is likely uncountably smaller (10:43). But then when Azure split the scroll that has Sun Wukong inside (7:33), MK later assures his friend that Sun Wukong would survive the slash because of his invulnerability despite being in the small seal (1:30)

I don't see a reason to assume this isn't just durability. If he even actually took the slash head-on which I wouldn't assume, this wouldn't necessarily translate to him taking a super-amped attack or whatever, fiction isn't consistent like that, and if people on his level can hurt him that's a huge anti-feat against the ability (And before you say that's a power nullification showing... unless they clearly say as much that's a baseless assumption).

Also there's another feat such as Wukong being shown to be invulnerable to the Samadhi Fire here (8:17) despite the fire stated it can burn through the very fabric of reality (3:56)

And this is fire/RW resistance.

 

[CasperSenar]

I don't see a reason to assume this isn't just durability. If he even actually took the slash head-on which I wouldn't assume, this wouldn't necessarily translate to him taking a super-amped attack or whatever, fiction isn't consistent like that, and if people on his level can hurt him that's a huge anti-feat against the ability (And before you say that's a power nullification showing... unless they clearly say as much that's a baseless assumption).

Not really since everyone in the show knows about Sun Wukong so MK's friend worried that Wukong may die inside the scroll it shows that Wukong was actually shrinked very small and anyone else who got the same treatment, wouldn't survived the slash. Also there are people on Wukong's level but still couldn't hurt him such as Nezha, Li Jing and DBK. The only ones that can hurt Wukong, are the ones who already have CM like MK himself or Nuwa

 

[Armorchompy]

Not really since everyone in the show knows about Sun Wukong so MK's friend worried that Wukong may die inside the scroll it shows that Wukong was actually shrinked very small and anyone else who got the same treatment, wouldn't survived the slash.

On the contrary, this proves the opposite. If he was conceptually invulnerable to all damage, why would they worry? Clearly he's just very durable and they were concerned this might've overcome that durability.

Also there are people on Wukong's level but still couldn't hurt him such as Nezha, Li Jing and DBK. The only ones that can hurt Wukong, are the ones who already have CM like MK himself or Nuwa

My read of this situation would be either that the first few characters relative but not strong enough to harm him whereas the last two are or that his durability is portrayed inconsistently. I'd require some pretty clear-cut proof that his "invulnerability" is being bypassed here rather than just overpowered. Is there ever any attention brought to people having the special ability to hurt him.

 

[CasperSenar]

On the contrary, this proves the opposite. If he was conceptually invulnerable to all damage, why would they worry? Clearly he's just very durable and they were concerned this might've overcome that durability.

My read of this situation would be either that the first few characters relative but not strong enough to harm him whereas the last two are or that his durability is portrayed inconsistently. I'd require some pretty clear-cut proof that his "invulnerability" is being bypassed here rather than just overpowered. Is there ever any attention brought to people having the special ability to hurt him.

Wait let me send some scans.

So here (0:38) and here (4:09) it's shown that Nezha is on par with Sun Wukong in straight contest of strength. But here (2:38) Li Jing is stated by Sun Wukong himself that he is stronger than Nezha yet despite this, Sun Wukong was shown to be invulnerable to Li Jing's slashes (1:40) (Li Jing had to use a special headband to control Wukong).

Also the only way to bypass Sun Wukong's invulnerability, if you have the same powers as himself. As after Macaque absorbed MK's powers (6:34), Macaque stated he could kill Sun Wukong with Wukong's own powers (7:40)

 

[CasperSenar]

What I can is tag people to evaluate further.

@Planck69 @Firestorm808 @Vietthai96 @Armorchompy would you be willing to help here?

Wait let me send some scans.

So here (0:38) and here (4:09) it's shown that Nezha is on par with Sun Wukong in straight contest of strength. But here (2:38) Li Jing is stated by Sun Wukong himself that he is stronger than Nezha yet despite this, Sun Wukong was shown to be invulnerable to Li Jing's slashes (1:40) (Li Jing had to use a special headband to control Wukong).

Also the only way to bypass Sun Wukong's invulnerability, if you have the same powers as himself. As after Macaque absorbed MK's powers (6:34), Macaque stated he could kill Sun Wukong with Wukong's own powers (7:40)

What are your thoughts on this

 

[CasperSenar]

On the contrary, this proves the opposite. If he was conceptually invulnerable to all damage, why would they worry? Clearly he's just very durable and they were concerned this might've overcome that durability.

My read of this situation would be either that the first few characters relative but not strong enough to harm him whereas the last two are or that his durability is portrayed inconsistently. I'd require some pretty clear-cut proof that his "invulnerability" is being bypassed here rather than just overpowered. Is there ever any attention brought to people having the special ability to hurt him.

Wait let me send some scans.

So here (0:38) and here (4:09) it's shown that Nezha is on par with Sun Wukong in straight contest of strength. But here (2:38) Li Jing is stated by Sun Wukong himself that he is stronger than Nezha yet despite this, Sun Wukong was shown to be invulnerable to Li Jing's slashes (1:40) (Li Jing had to use a special headband to control Wukong).

Also the only way to bypass Sun Wukong's invulnerability, if you have the same powers as himself. As after Macaque absorbed MK's powers (6:34), Macaque stated he could kill Sun Wukong with Wukong's own powers (7:40)

Bump?

 

[Armorchompy]

Wait let me send some scans.

So here (0:38) and here (4:09) it's shown that Nezha is on par with Sun Wukong in straight contest of strength.

Why is Wukong bothering to deflect and dodge the attacks if Nezha is unable to harm him? In the second fight he can repeatedly be seen sweating and looking at incoming attacks with fear/concern. Obviously he thinks they might harm him.

Actually... 4:40, second video. Wukong grunts several times as Nezha sends him flying through mountains, is clearly pained afterwards and even says: "Alright, that hurt". Please explain how that doesn't just obviously disprove what you've been arguing?

But here (2:38) Li Jing is stated by Sun Wukong himself that he is stronger than Nezha yet despite this

"But we both know I hit harder" - it's in the second scan you posted. He's not stronger due to some hax ability he's just stronger.

Sun Wukong was shown to be invulnerable to Li Jing's slashes (1:40)

"Deflecting one attack" isn't evidence that you're invulnerable to it.

 

[CasperSenar]

Why is Wukong bothering to deflect and dodge the attacks if Nezha is unable to harm him? In the second fight he can repeatedly be seen sweating and looking at incoming attacks with fear/concern. Obviously he thinks they might harm him.

Actually... 4:40, second video. Wukong grunts several times as Nezha sends him flying through mountains, is clearly pained afterwards and even says: "Alright, that hurt". Please explain how that doesn't just obviously disprove what you've been arguing?

"But we both know I hit harder" - it's in the second scan you posted. He's not stronger due to some hax ability he's just stronger.

"Deflecting one attack" isn't evidence that you're invulnerable to it.

Mainly because Nezha has a special magic that harms anyone as stated in the first fight here (2:52). Nezha even has shown that his magic was able to directly effect the concept of fate here (6:48). I mainly use Nezha as an argument to chainscale his father Li Jing being above Wukong (and the fact that Wukong shows no harm against Li Jing, would be consistent with Azure Lion being incapable of harming Wukong despite Wukong was shrinked infinitely inside a seal (with MK saying Wukong is fine due to his invulnerabiltiy))

 

[Armorchompy]

Mainly because Nezha has a special magic that harms anyone as stated in the first fight here (2:52).

"It will destroy us both" is not a statement pertaining to duraneg or anything else other than AP. This also just doesn't seem combat-applicable.

Nezha even has shown that his magic was able to directly effect the concept of fate here (6:50)

Provided it actually is that - given the track record I've seen so far I disbelieve that - this in no way implies universal applicability or the ability to pierce invulnerability. At best from the scan it's just the ability to affect concepts in this kind of form.

Is Nezha (or any other character)'s ability to ignore invulnerability actually ever pointed out at all in the story? Seems like a pretty important deal.

I mainly use Nezha as an argument to chainscale his father Li Jing being above Wukong

So your only actual evidence that Sun Wukong is immune to his attacks is that he deflected a single energy slash? Boy.

@LephyrTheRevanchist @LordGriffin1000 apologies for tagging but since you were in the thread already, the entire invulnerability stuff seems blatantly wrong. Would you sign off on a removal?