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League of Legends Profiles

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Basically,

- Many champions are scaled to feats from Lee Sin, Rammus, Kayle, and Maokai, when, although it has been strongly implied that stronger champions are depowered on the Fields of Justice, it's unknown whether any champions have been empowered to be on the same level of others, or what the baseline even is. Although I'd agree with the current baseline under other circumstances...

- Lee Sin and Maokai's lores are both now assuredly non-canon due to changes in League's lore. The Institute of War has been removed from new lore entirely, and summoners are being altered, and may even be completely removed from the lore. This affects virtually all League champions, not just those two; Swain's feat of resisting mind manipulation from a summoner is likely non-canon now, among many other feats demonstrated in outdated lores and judgements.

- Many pages have old abilities from reworked champions still listed under their techniques. While in some cases it makes sense, in others it makes no sense at all due to their lore being changed significantly, so the abilities and capabilities of pre-rework champions should not be used anymore due to being non-canon.

Also, I don't know where it was stated that Swain was even potentially able to kill a fully-fed Cho-Gath, so him being able to seems like a possibility at best and fanfiction at worst, and should not be listed.

Regardless. Let me know your thoughts and opinions on the matter.
 
CHILLVIBEZZ said:
How do you even know what's canon or not in this verse?
Click to expand...
Well. It's hard, but most lore that makes explicit reference to summoners or the Institute and/or relies on one of those things for a major portion of the lore is evidently not canon. Some lores don't really conflict with anything else beyond mentioning the Institute at the end, and can therefore be taken at face value, generally, until such lore gets inevitably retconned.
 
Bump. I'd appreciate other opinions on this.
 
I believe we've discussed this before. When it lists off them, it lists off some of the examples of champions who make Town Level feats quite consistent throughout a large chunk of the cast. The only person they ever make a really super big deal of nerfing was Jax, though a few champions have done things since then outside of the league that have placed them above this. It seems fairly clear-cut to me that what happens while summoned within the League to settle disputes for their summoners and what happens back in Runeterra are two wholly different things.
 
ThePerpetual said:
I believe we've discussed this before. When it lists off them, it lists off some of the examples of champions who make Town Level feats quite consistent throughout a large chunk of the cast. The only person they ever make a really super big deal of nerfing was Jax, though a few champions have done things since then outside of the league that have placed them above this. It seems fairly clear-cut to me that what happens while summoned within the League to settle disputes for their summoners and what happens back in Runeterra are two wholly different things.
Click to expand...
And I wouldn't have a problem with that.

But... again, why are we scaling them off of non-canon feats? Maokai and Lee Sin's lore make no sense anymore with the retcons, and there's no way either of them can be canon after the retcons. Even if they COULD be, the lore you're using for Maokai is OLD, NON-CANON LORE anyways, that was replaced before the retcon was even mentioned.

This is the problem I have with the scalings we're using. It's using the assumption that all champions are equal on the Fields of Valor, which is based off of something that is no longer canon - the Institute of War. Which has been retconned out of existence.
 
Well, I just checked Lee Sin's and Maokai's backstories, and they've yet to have been changed from what they were last I checked. In other words... there's nothing to change them to. So, either Riot disagrees with itself on what is canon and what is not, their supposed changes haven't been implemented yet, or they don't have "canon" and "non-canon" distinction to begin with, all of which get us just about nowhere. At any rate, even without them, there's a good number of other Town level feats that make it a consistent thing to mass powerscale with: generating tornadoes and windstorms like Janna does yields Town Level last I checked, for instance. I'm very worn out at the moment and don't have time to further look into this, but for now I'd ask that you be patient and let me actually investigate the matter, League lore has always been really convoluted from my experience...
 
To my understanding, Maokai's current lore is down at the bottom of that page. Lee Sin's lore has not yet been changed, but is highly inconsistent with canon and should not be relied upon as a reliable source of information due to this.

The only champion lores that can be fully respected and taken at full face value are the newer ones made past Riot's announcement regarding the retcon, and the ones released when they were probably planning it. Those being the lores that make no mention whatsoever of the Institute of War, or summoners. Yes, there are inconsistencies. That's because the inconsistent ones were rendered non-canon and have not yet been replaced, because all of these changes have not yet been implemented into the lore.

Still, Riot has explicitly said that the Institute of War is no longer canon, so it's fairly obvious which things join it in being no longer canon, and none of the newer lores are inconsistent with anything they've established about it now. Non-canon lore may not be explicitly referred to as non-canon, but we can come to those conclusions ourselves without needing explicit confirmation that yes, this lore is non-canon.

Okay. It is quite convoluted.
 
This sounds reasonable to me, but it would involve changing an awful lot of pages, and you will probably have to inform WeeklyBattles, who wrote them.
 
I do not believe Perpetual is done explaining, he was just too tired to continue. As a result, I recommend waiting until he comes back to explain.
 
Now that the AP revision is completed, I can bump this back up again.

Various things I've noted on the League profiles:

- Characters being scaled to Battlecast Prime Cho'gath, an AU skin created with the express purpose of being superior to normal Cho'gath. I really don't think this kind of scaling is valid ("Oh, Swain should be comparable to this better robot Cho'gath from an alternate universe!"), although Battlecast Prime Cho'gath should remain on Cho'gath's page.

- Lissandra and Brand should be listed as "Low 6-B, High 6-A with environmental destruction", like other characters who can destroy things over time.

- Swain should be Low 6-B from scaling to the other big deals in League, but not any lower and not any higher. We have no evidence for him being any stronger than that, so he should remain that. Him being potentially able to kill a fully fed Cho'gath sounds like someone's fanfic pitch and it should be removed from the page unless there is evidence presented to support it.
 
Bumping again. Input would be very much appreciated.
 
I will ask WeeklyBattles.
 
Don't really know much about LoL at all, but i think this is reasonable enough. Just need to see what Weekly says about this.
 
I wish I could offer input, but I am currently quite tied for time and have a lot to do, and currently still researching the series in question.
 
The only character's here who are scaled to Battlecast Cho are Swain and Viktor. I agree that Swain shouldn't be scaled to him (Who he should scale too I'll explain below), but Viktor should be able to scale due to Battlecast Cho's technology being based on the same technology Viktor himself uses.

I feel like they could be bumped up based on the size of Runeterra and the fact that it's classified as a supercontinent, but I can see the High 6-A rating being environmental destruction.

I would like to get Perpetual's opinion on this part, but I agree that Swain at his worst should be bumped up to 6-B, Jarvan as well.
 
Well, the only people that really scale to the Battlecasts are Viktor (who uses the same if not better tech) and Jayce (who is in effect his archnemesis and the one guy who consistently fights him in-canon), if anyone else is scaled to that they probably shouldn't be. Swain and Jarvan? Besides, Lissandra and the like are superior to that anyhow, so.

I don't necessarily see why we'd make a distinction for environmental destruction in this particular instance when we don't really for most anywhere else on the site. It's not like any overly long timeframe is involved, if there were there'd be plenty of time for the League to notice and hence do something about it to stop him, which directly contradicts the entire point of binding him to service as a part of the League; preventing him from having the chance to do that. Seems rather like an inconsistency in our standards.

A couple other things of note: Weekly brings up a good point in that, seeing as Runeterra is apparently some sort of supercontinent, Freljord might not necessarily be a "Small" country. Not really certain on how I'd discern that currently though.

Also, I'm fairly certain that this thread is now a mismatch, and that using Swain's other stats only makes it a mismatch in the opposite direction (it was made quite some time ago when Madara's stats were still under debate), plus apparently someone edited it into Swain's victory section when it was inconclusive, and remains so on Madara's page? I don't know what's up with that, it may or may not be for the best to simply remove that thread entirely.

Again, my apologies for not being able to be around more often. I barely have internet access as-is, currently.
 
I agree with what Weekly has stated. However, I doubt Runeterra is the size of an actual supercontinent, even if it is called one. Supercontinents are immense.

It is specified on Elsa's profile, on Yamamoto's profile, and on several other ones I cannot remember off the top of my head, so I believe it is fitting to use it here as well. They do not freeze/burn it over immediately, after all, and it likely takes time to do so. The timeframe could be a week and that'd be super fast to a much weaker being, but unusable for combat stats. And, again, the Institute of War isn't canon, and hasn't been for a long time, so it's irrelevant to this discussion.

We're getting sidetracked from the main issue here. And that is that most champion profiles are scaled from non-canon feats (Lee Sin's now non-canon summoner feat, and Maokai killing a bunch of summoners in horribly oudated lore). If need be, I can go through the profiles and updated lores to find which ones are non-canon, and to see if I can find any canon feats of note.

Swain vs Madara was always a mismatch due to the horribly nonsensical stats on Swain's page.

Anyways, I understand.
 
Why would they call it a supercontinent if it wasn't one? Besides, if we look at Runeterra as a supercontinent it would probably only bump characters up to Country level instead of Small Country level.

Swain vs Sayain Saga Goku should probably be removed as well.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Why would they call it a supercontinent if it wasn't one? Besides, if we look at Runeterra as a supercontinent it would probably only bump characters up to Country level instead of Small Country level.

Swain vs Sayain Saga Goku should probably be removed as well.
Click to expand...
Exaggeration.

Alright, and yes.

Also, bump.
 
You can claim that it's not canon all you like- I still remember their announcement of the supposed overhaul myself- and yet they still haven't acted on it, bothered to rework most of the character's stories, or really done all that much of anything. How long has it been, a year now? It's not like League was a stickler for consistency in the first place. They had Nautilus outright stated to stop the island of Bilgewater or whatever from getting annihlated in lore, as part of that one story which was itself post-retcon that never was (I think Weekly explained it to me a while back) yet in a cinematic he got offed by a toppled pillar as if he were rice paper. Long story short, they don't know what a canon is. We've already been through that discussion.

And there's plenty more Town level feats, we had a discussion about that quite some time ago.

Environmental destruction's not really that widely used, to be honest, and it most certainly shouldn't be used when there's no real timeframe of any significant length remotely implied at all. Like, her sweeping across the land with her empire and choking the world with ice as they marched to meet them doesn't mean timeframe, it just means the magic's area spread. It most certainly doesn't make sense for her to fly around the country freezing little bits of it at a time, especially as if that was the case someone would've probably stopped her in the process of doing that? Pretty sure she's not the only champion who's been around for a couple of centuries, there's entities like Anivia after all.

Speaking of Anivia, she wields the entirety of the power and fury of the Freljord as basically an embodiment of the land itself, so there's Small Country-Country-whatever to scale to. So there, it doesn't even matter actually.

...one question, though, and this is directed at Weekly.

Supposedly, Cho'Gath has the potential to grow as large as the planet. Can you remind me, again, when exactly this happened? I don't remember.
 
ThePerpetual said:
You can claim that it's not canon all you like- I still remember their announcement of the supposed overhaul myself- and yet they still haven't acted on it, bothered to rework most of the character's stories, or really done all that much of anything. How long has it been, a year now? It's not like League was a stickler for consistency in the first place. They had Nautilus outright stated to stop the island of Bilgewater or whatever from getting annihilated in lore, as part of that one story which was itself post-retcon that never was (I think Weekly explained it to me a while back) yet in a cinematic he got offed by a toppled pillar as if he were rice paper. Long story short, they don't know what a canon is. We've already been through that discussion.

And there's plenty more Town level feats, we had a discussion about that quite some time ago.
Click to expand...
Uh, yeah, they have. Every lore made for over a year before the announcement had no mention of the Institute of War. Every lore since then has had no mention of the Institute of War. Every event and cinematic they've had since then has completely disregarded it. Right now, they're removing mentions of the Institute of War from many old lores on the PBE. They've been doing events that go against everything that the Institute of War was meant to establish in-canon. It is evidently no longer canon. Lore rewrites take time with such a small team anyways. They haven't given up on it.

You act like League being inconsistent is important to this. Everything's inconsistent. You're bringing up irrelevant points. Nautilus dying to a rock despite being able to fight off some fog (not even sure it destroys so much as life wipes and turns things into undead anyways, so that's unquantifiable) is a lot different from characters having super non-canon lore filled with things that are no longer possible.
 
This doesn't change the fact they've yet to rework his story, and again there's plenty of characters with Town level stuff so why get hung up over Lee Sin specifically? I can go through and change all the wordings, that's not an issue.

You think I don't know that? When I say inconsistent, I mean inconsistent next to everything else I know too. It's an online computer game constantly subject to reworks and retooling of abilities and such, it's rather ill-suited for Versus debates to begin with. Back when I made Swain's profile before any of the rest of these League profiles were around (who even knows what's happened with it since then), I left a note at the bottom rather explicitly pointing out how wonky the lore was and how that should be taken into consideration for a reason, that reason being this.
 
Actually, a second question for Weekly, now that I look at Swain's profile: why does it have fan art on it, as opposed to actual, canon art like the rest of the profiles? Sort of sticks out like a sore thumb.
 
The profiles explicitly mentioned Lee Sin and Maokai (and Kayle, but she's scaled off of Maokai anyways) as if they were the only characters with town level feats. I'm fine with the wording being changed.

Yeah, that's true. I just want the profiles to remain as accurate and consistent as possible, even if League isn't consistent at all.
 
Aye, the same. Just a bit tired, probably got worked up over nothing.

At any rate, I'll probably start going through profiles tomorrow or whenever I can and double-checking things regarding scaling and whatnot. If Weekly can't cause Planetary Cho to turn up, obviously I'll be removing that (and with it the victories on Swain's page since they'll cease to be any amount of feasible), and I think I'll look around and see if there's any speed feats I missed. Sound good?
 
Yes, sounds good. Thank you.
 
@Weekly Never mind my second question, I've been looking through and apparently a lot of profiles don't use canon art, so I guess that was never standard format and more just a default thing.
 
I added the fanart because the old splash arts just didn't look good. I was actually planning on adding Swain's new splash art since it looks much better. I believe Leblanc and a few others have fanart in place of their splash art, so feel free to change them of you want to.
 
ThePerpetual said:
...one question, though, and this is directed at Weekly.
Supposedly, Cho'Gath has the potential to grow as large as the planet. Can you remind me, again, when exactly this happened? I don't remember.
Click to expand...

Hmm...I went through his lore again and...there's really no mention of him actually growing large enough to eat the planet. There's a heavy implication that he would kill everything and POSSIBLY destroy the planet if given half the chance, but that's about it.

Also, are we keeping the Small Country rating for top tiers or bumping them to Country level due to Valoran's status as a supercontinent (I realize before I said Runeterra, but Runeterra is the name of the planet itself).
 
There is, but a good lot of it's more haxxy than raw power, and scaling is weird.

Country sounds like it could be acceptable, but we've got to decide on that now. What do you all think, is Freljord a Country or a Small Country?
 
Country level seems appropriate, I suppose.
 
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