LDO revisions

[ZERO7772]

So we have few problems with the LDO profiles on masadaverse page that i would like to address :

First part the AP :

The LDO are listed as At least 7-B likely 7-A because ...... well some statement and hyperpool that lack feats to back it up, The main reason to list the LDO members at 7-B because supposedly nukes like tsar bomba is completely useless against them, however it was exactly stated in the game you can't kill them unless you use nukes by Kei in info dump scene where she was explain everything to Ren as you can see at min 14:51 here

Now for the other side of the argument : there another statement that says conventional weapons stopped working on the LDO long which is the justification we use for the city level rating while ignoring the other one, the scan can be found Here and it was brought up by @ALRF

The problem is that you can take the conventional weapons statement in different ways while you can only take Kei statement in one way, there other claims like Bey threatening to wipe the city from the map or Cain being able to bust a mountain but again it's all statement that lack any feats to back it up, in another scene Shirou claim the LDO can wipe out entire country while in other Ren calim to be faster than light without even useing his Braih to match Cain who wasn't using his braih either

Handgun can actually cause pain to Ren and the LDO and even damage them a little, see Herelater on Ren is worried the Normal Guns Wolfgang was using may blow up his head at close range Here

What I am trying to say is these statement can conflict with each other a lot and heck here Ren did get hurt instead of just hyping him to be walking city through some statement here and there, Rusalka also said it hurt when elie shooted her with handgun, now some people might says Bey wasn't hurt at all by hand gun but it just mean he is much stronger physically than Rusalka and maybe he just used to it

Eleonore feat was clacked at 7-C for vaporizing the amusement park, Kei stated they all cause this much damage but this specific way "that gave Eleonore her tier 7 rating" is only meant for Eleonore herself and she made big deal of it

Now I am not sure how to rank the LDO myself but we need to re-look into their ranking, i suggest we may rank them as Likely 7-B for Beatrice statement as we have two statements that contradict each other and another fight where Ren "who is close to Bey level" was hurt by regular handgun but they should be around city level non the less, however the 7-A tier doesn't apply here at all, there also fact we can scale them from Keishirou Kyougetsu but i am not sure as I never played KKK myself so I would leave this for discussion, personally I am against it because I think we should rate the character in it's own games and we are discussing DI here

Second part : Abilities and Resistance

Now the LDO and Ren have tons of Resistance and hax for stuff without any justification whatsoever such as :

Magic

Mind Manipulation

Spatial Manipulation

Conceptual Manipulation

Intangibility

We need justification for these stuff as i remember none of them, actually both Magic and mind manipulation were working to Ren

Third part : minor addition

1-LDO have limitless stamina - > false

2-while they have low godly regen if you happen to break their HR by chance you will kill them so this should be added as weakness for them

Well that all for now again I would like to discuss those things about the profiles and fix them a little

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

honestly no feats backing up is not the best wording as well...cause this is similar to berserker's fate statement AFAIK he didn't bust a mountain yet he still got the ranking hell the other statement was because keishirou is weaker than wil with the former busting a mountain range iirc. The guns idk but they aren't exactly ordinary with infinite bullets and no reloading...Btw its shinza so its connected to each other so there is that. And its likely PIS can factor in tbh I mean its uncommon for it to happen and wil while he can bust suwahara he isn't allowed otherwise ritual fail as Rea can't take more than one opening at a time IIRC

Magic and spatial idk. Mind came from darkness god (idk if ren scales), Concept was based on explaination page with the quote: "In addition, the wounds inflicted by relics is not only physical and spiritual trauma, it is conceptual as one can attack the very concept or "idea" of a person's existence like machina". Intangibility some users can do this like beatrice and cain along with kei (lol family of intangibles) via briahs at least

Stamina idk wilhelm never really got tired in the slightest only when he was getting beaten up. HR though Ik breaking it will kill them but these guys have soul manipulation too so...there is that...

This is rushed and I'll just likely see how this goes or let experts drive cause I'm not the best person for shinza things just trying to give some insight

 

[ZERO7772]

The statement are conflicting with each other is my point, you can't call PIS when it's stated 3-4 times this is like we are taking what we like, we gotta factor everything

Ren was knocked unconscious because he was so tired, Shirou was also so tired from fighting bey in marie route, Kei was banting as hell when she fought alone on the school rooftop they doesn't have limitless stamina and Bey Braih realy on taking power on stamina from the opponents it's 100% false

Yeah Intangibility apply to Kei family because the nature of their briah but others doesn't have tangibility

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

And more statements say otherwise...wil claims he can bust city which no one really denied btw the country iirc that was overnight and together not individually.

I just said maybe but ok I see idk where limitless truly came from i likely forgot lol. Also Briah bey drains the LIFE of opponent not just stamina but the life out of you is getting sucked LITERALLY just pointing out to ya

IIRC didn't machina punched cain out intangibility state maybe due to property of deus ex machina but he needs to hit cain regardless

 

[ZERO7772]

I am not really trying to downgrade i am saying we should factory everything, Bey may been lying to scare Ren or maybe he's just saying nonsense, i can make a lot of excuses for this what we need is proof, why are you believing bey when Ren believe bullet can kill him and he was actually hurt by bullet ?

Bey Braih work on absorbing multiple thing along with power, speed, stamina, life power etc like we saw in his fight with wolfgang but this is beside the point

Dunno how deus ex machina even works tbh

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

I'm only saying we have more than like 3-4 contradicting statements and an on-screen feats (Wolfie's stroll in berlin...fun) that's what i mean

Deus ex machina takes ppl of briah state iirc cause machina took ren out of his EFO briah along with cain's walkure AFAIK

 

[ZERO7772]

I am fine with Likely 7-B or even straight 7-B but the 7-A need to go

Well that explain it

 

[VoidGoji]

Their Mid-Godly Regen needs justification too.

Well... Schreiber regenerated faster than Machina's erasure while inside Gladsheimr during Ren vs Commanders. Can this be added as justification?

 

[ZERO7772]

They have low-godly Rege though

 

[VoidGoji]

Mid-Godly while inside Gladsheimr, no?

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

7-A was because of cain's statement i mean he can split a mountain based on narration and again Berserker (Fate/stay night) had the same thing

Mid-Godly justified because meth was erasing the LDO members with his BS 1 billion year move which ages the soul to oblivion (literally) so glasheirm keeps the regen amping it so the weaker ones can live while reinhard being reinhard didn't give two ***** too

 

[VoidGoji]

Ren being hurt by normal guns is really nonsense... Like, I considered that a huge PIS along with similar things in the series. Ren was punched in the face by Machina, who is at least 7-B~7-A, but got hurt by a gun.

 

[VoidGoji]

About Kei's statement of "Nukes can kill them". . . She didn't even see their full power, how she can say this as absolute truth? :v

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

@Red Berserker actually has a 7-A feat to back up his mountain busting statement, he deflected a weakened Excaliblast. Gil also has weapons that can pierce multiple mountains and he could deflect some of them as well. So it's not the same.

 

[ZERO7772]

We can go all the day discussion the other pages, we are in DI now we can't add 7-A when the 7-B itself is conversational, please don't take example from other pages, there only one line for the mountai busting thing unlike the city level

I don't have problem with their regen tbh

Ren handling Machina punch on it's own is PIS, machina can beat the shit out of trifa who is legion worth of souls if we scale him to Reinh he's like star level in dura, also cain with one punch, Cain was beating Ren like ragdoll in their fight, Rusalka was also hurt by ellie handgun it's the same case as Ren

Kei herself is comparable to the bey and Rusalka and she know what she can do and if we to doubt her words we may as doubt the statement of FTL Ren without his Briah

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Just saying but ahh got it though it doesn't seem to be a problem to scale to keishirou really as again keishirou was stated to be far weaker than his original counterpart wilhelm

Actually Kei AFAIK (IDK this fyi i just remember hearing something about this) is one of the weaker LDO members comparable but not as powerful just saying. And btw Bey is one of the strongest physically stated in the novel. Also the FTL ren is WITH briah it was calced too

 

[VoidGoji]

About the Resistances:

They are rejecting reality itself and rewrinting it by using their wish, that's why thei have this shitton of resistances, I think?

 

[ZERO7772]

@SBA-kun Yeah there the whole thing of scaling them from keishirou but i dunno about that, i didn't read KKK i thnk we will need to ask ALRF

Kei tanked and hurt Bey an even cut off his arm but couldn't win because she is inexperienced in battle unlike him, this put her in the same tier as Bey by default, Trifa is acually even weaker than Kei physically but can still harm Ren who is somewhat comparable to Bey who Kei fought many times

@SchroKatze that logic doesn't work, it's just description to show their power work

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

Considering that Trifa's Ahnenerbe is literally Reinhard's body. Then yes, his durability would be sitting at that level or close to it

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

@zero i said while weaker still comparable aka still same tier anyway but again this is from what i heard. And iirc ALRFY confirmed this one time lets wait. And ren fought cain who is the most powerful regular member so there is that too cause didn't ren dispatch kei rather quickly when he went briah? I don't remember particularly.

Also harem??? really we need a harem route now OVO

 

[ZERO7772]

>harem

Lol sorry for that >_<

 

[Antvasima]

You can politely ask ALRF and CrossverseCrisis to comment here if you wish.

 

[ALRF]

About the AP part

• Keishirou can slice through mountains and pierce through Mountain ranges.

• Keishirou is >>> Shiori in stats who's fists are said to generate energy equal to earthquakes and lightning

• Keishirou going toe to toe with the mountain ranges and country busters Tenma (without of course using their Taikyoku

• Soujirou cutting a tsunami larger than a mountain, and Keishirou >>> Soujirou in stats (He is much more distorted than him, same for Shiori, he is much more distorted than her)

• Tubal Cain statement of crushing down mountains

• Wilhelm threatening Ren to erase Suwahara

• And finally this

All of this are in the range between 7-B and 7-A.

Now:

• Can be harmed by nukes according to Kei

• Wolfie normal handgu (trust me, we had a wild discussion about this in chat, and no they are not) harming Shirou and Ren

• More guns stuff

And that's all i guess? Now see the difference, we have 3 (honestly 2 considering Wolfie guns are not normal like at all) statements which contradicts the other ones, that's enough to give you a general idea on why At least 7-B, likely 7-A is more better (Like i said we scale Bey from Keishirou since Bey >>> Keishirou).

I will get into the powers stuff later

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

To be fair, Kei only guesses that maybe a nuke could hurt them.

 

[ZERO7772]

I don't know much about KKK, if ALRF says they scale then i agree as using this to justify their rating

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

dayum

 

[Extreme123dz]

For the statement of geting hurt by weapos (Pistol/Gun), i hope this is only his physical body manifestation, well, they feel pains, but not will kill them.

For the "Statement"..., we need to separate in parts:

The City may is Hiperbole in Base (Assiah) or Yetsirah state, but in Briah is true (but depends of the feats/PS, Obviusly Rot/Riza not will have this until Pantheon), i think at minimum they are Building and Max posible Town level on Base/Assiah and Yetsirah.

The Contry Aside from Merc/Reinhard, Meth...is hyperbole for the others.

The mountain and "Lighting speed" for me are true feats, Ren he proved to dodge even with difficulty those lightning attacks of Cain in Yetsirah and the Briah is Explicit.

We need New Keys like (Base/Asiah/Yetsirah) or some parts/Route of the VN lite (Kazymi, Key, Marie, Rea Route).

 

[ZERO7772]

i was never sure of scaling the LDO from Keishirou, i figured i may ask ALRF and he said it's fine, if the LDO scale from Keishirou who have clear feats i can't argue against that

We sill need adress their hax and other stuff

 

[ALRF]

>Conceptual

• I too, was at first confused on why we have that, though after looking at our Masadaverse page explanation, it comes from this: "the wounds inflicted by relics is not only physical and spiritual trauma, it is conceptual as one can attack the very concept or "idea" of a person's existence". If you can give me some time, i can find the original statement to confirm this.

>Temporal

• The only thing that is close to temporal is that thing about souls aging until they self-destruct, to put it simply, Souls have this expiration date which will happen as the souls age, die Ewigkeit slows this aging process by constantly consuming souls, this is as far as i can think about Temporal resistance.

>Spatial

• I sadly don't remember much about this, so maybe other users who played DI could find justification for this?

>Mind

• Now about Ren and Rusalka thing...didn't show Ren some resistance to that?IIRC she...well tried to read his memories by drowning him but he tried to resist, well if it isn't true i do think there is much more mind resist feats if i'm not wrong so i will keep searching :v

>while they have low godly regen if you happen to break their HR by chance you will kill them so this should be added as weakness for them

• Perfectly fine

>LDO have limitless stamina - > false

True to some cases, and other not really, for instance Wilhelm boosted by Gladsheimr could spam all of his attacks without any sign of fatigue. EFF Ren power directly comes from the Throne which practically means it's infinite

I think that's all? Hope i didn't miss anything

 

[The_Everlasting]

All the LDO can withstand Methuselah's aura.

 

[ZERO7772]

Okay for Conceptual

This isn't enough justification Temporal imo

Nothing for Spatial then

As for Mind thing, Rusalka ****** with Ren mind for quite some time and IIRC she's the one who spared him after he begged her to stop

Also what about the magic part ?

We can make exception for EEF Ren and Bey sure

 

[ALRF]

I think ZERO is just asking about Ren mind resist feats but yeah they didn't go crazy or go suicide or die instantly just from exposure to Methuselah aura

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

You know since this is relevant to the general resistances of their base powers, i will say that why they were set there when Everlasting started to post profiles of them last year or so.

IDK about conceptual resistance now that i look at it as well.

Temporal i honestly have no clue of that. The only ones that would seriously apply for would be of Reinhard and the Commanders after the 8 Swastikas are all opened. Though i think the latter cases for them was due to getting some "Atizluth-like" effect from Reinhard but i forgot the actual reason for them here so...

Spatial, that needs to either be removed or looked at cause i can't recall ever reading about their resistance to that.

Mind resistance for the LDO would mainly be towards Methuselah's passive mind aura shuntining hax so there's that.

Edit: Of Ren? I didn't really recall any but if he has any, we should note that on his profile then and what degree of it.

Honestly speaking, this is just one or so of many verses we have problems of just mindlessly adding shit yet we don't seem to at least write in WHY. The only one i would assume to have all of those resistances is maybe Reinhard, and that's a strong MAYBE right there probably when Eleonore was explaining to Kei about Reinhard's body having such a strong defense during Machina's attack on Christoff.

As for AP scaling, several of those that ALRF has pointed out fits perfectly fine of Shinza's general tiering so i'm fine with them as is IMO. Although maybe we can note that in the Dura and/or AP sections of their's that they can take on nukes and also harm other members with similar durability? IDK, that's honestly up to you all here really...

Stamina part is something EMC either suggested or thought of us adding but if they have shown to be seriously tired at times when in battle (i get pretty forgetful or don't actively think enough on things like this), we can surely adjust that to somewhere down in a stamina downgrade. I do agree with what ALRF suggests for Bey empowered by Reinhard and EFF Ren tho for this case.

 

[ZERO7772]

There also Intangibility for all the LDO members even though this only apply to Kei and Beatrice

 

[ALRF]

Conceptual is legit, just found the quote in japanese...though wouldn't that mean they should get Conceptual manipulation?

• ÞüûÚü║þë®Òü½ÒéêÒéïµö╗µÆâÒü»þë®þÉåþÜäÒâ╗Ú£èþÜäÒü«õ©íÚØóÒüºÚÿ▓ÒüîÒü¬ÒüæÒéîÒü░µ¡óÒéüÒéëÒéîÒüÜÒÇüÒüØÒü«ÕéÀÒü»ÚÇÜÕ©©Òü«Þ▓áÕéÀÒüºÒü»Òü¬Òüŵ¡┤ÕÅ▓ÒéÆÚçìÒü¡ÒéïÒüôÒü¿ÒüºÞôäþ®ìÒüòÒéîÒüƒµâ│Õ┐ÁÒü¿ÒüäÒüåÕæ¬ÒüäÒüºÒüéÒéèÒÇüÞç┤Õæ¢þÜäÒü¬µ»ÆÒü¿Òü¬ÒéèÒüåÒéïÒÇé

The part that i highlighted seems to be talking about how they can hurt the concept or idea of someone just like the translation

• Temporal resistance for Reinhard seems fine tbh, he didn't show any form of resistance towards Methuselah timehax and the only damage he got was a crack in his cheek.

• Intagibility is that something that of course not all have.

And yeah...does anyone have that scan where Eleonore talks about the numerous anti things Reinhard has? (I know it exists in the TL 100%).

• Spatial, i dunno.

 

[VoidGoji]

Didn't Ren resist spatial distortions/cracks caused by Reinhard incomplete presence?

 

[ZERO7772]

Okay please forgive me if this is silly or I forgot something but why the LDO have RW in their profiles again ?

 

[ALRF]

@Schro if there is, can you show us please~?

 

[VoidGoji]

Briah's are Reality Warping.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@ALRF:

For intangibility, we should take that out then in that case unless there's any missing detail or reference of others having it.

Conceptual, idk? Never really crossed my mind before until now.

On the Temporal resistance, Reinhard also showed no sign of Ren's EFF affecting him even when 5 swastikas were opened so we have another time resistance feat at least?

On the anti-things, it was to do with stuff like "Anti-physical. Anti-Magical. Anti-Temporal. And Anti-Accidents". Whatever the first and last one means on top of having the millions of souls under his belt that acts as a really high degree of spiritual armor for him.