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Large Size and Lifting Strength

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If you have alternative suggestions, that is obviously fine as well.
 
I'm not sure if this is relevant or if I'm too late to discuss but what about characters with no real defined overall size but their body parts are stated to be as large/heavy as x large thing like a toe as large as a mountain, a hand as tall as a building, etc.
 
Naitodesu said:
I'm not sure if this is relevant or if I'm too late to discuss but what about characters with no real defined overall size but their body parts are stated to be as large/heavy as x large thing like a toe as large as a mountain, a hand as tall as a building, etc.
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Uh oh. You might be right!
 
Naitodesu said:
I'm not sure if this is relevant or if I'm too late to discuss but what about characters with no real defined overall size but their body parts are stated to be as large/heavy as x large thing like a toe as large as a mountain, a hand as tall as a building, etc.
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But has the characters' general shape been sort of defined?
This is basically another aspect of giant model - if a normal human-shaped giant has his palm length the same length as a typical US male human height, we get the palm size relative to the human overall height, then the giant's height can be reliably estimated.

(I assume you are talking about book and novel characters, whose descriptions can be super ill-defined.)
 
Well assuming it follows a definable shape, should their LS scale to those traits? I mean, if your arm can freely move with your hand which is stated to be as heavy as whatever
 
Jasonsith said:
But has the characters' general shape been sort of defined?
This is basically another aspect of giant model - if a normal human-shaped giant has his palm length the same length as a typical US male human height, we get the palm size relative to the human overall height, then the giant's height can be reliably estimated.

(I assume you are talking about book and novel characters, whose descriptions can be super ill-defined.)
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Here’s a question I know will cause a riot: why do you keep saying “a normal, human-shaped giant?” I think I speak for everyone when I say that these “normal, human-shaped giants” are rare in fiction.
 
I'm not going to take any sides but a humanoid shaped giant is fairly common, at least humanoid enough where hand measurements based on the human form aren't unreasonable
 
Jasonsith said:
Oh no my home desktop broke down and I am not allowed to use my work laptop to do private things...

But never mind I will redraft:

"Lifting Strength could be calculated from size with clearly defined assumptions. While characters have to lift more bodyweight, lifting strength is the weight they can lift in addition to that. Given giant characters more times than not have to push around other giant characters at around their same sizes, it is only reasonable these characters can lift an extra weight equal to their own weight on top of their own weights. Meanwhile, like any other characters, a lifting strength level has to be shown or at least reasonably deduced to be considered valid. Therefore, the character should demonstrate itself to be capable of doing something like a push up (i.e. pushing much of its weight up with just its hands), wrestling with other monsters at around the same size, or flying by wings (or any non-supernatural means of lifting their weight into the air) or other acceptable lifting strength feat to have the lifting strength tiered to the yield of such feat.

If there are evidence the reference figures these giant characters scale up from can lift way more than their own weight (e.g. a centipede can lift up to 15 times its own weight), such consideration should be taken into account."






I am making this change during weekend if no one objects and no one applies such change.
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Either someone nod on my redraft, or edit my redraft accordingly, thanks.
 
Jasonsith said:
"Lifting Strength could be calculated from size with clearly defined assumptions. While characters have to lift more bodyweight, lifting strength is the weight they can lift in addition to that. Given giant characters more times than not have to push around other giant characters at around their same sizes, it is only reasonable these characters can lift an extra weight equal to their own weight on top of their own weights. Meanwhile, like any other characters, a lifting strength level has to be shown or at least reasonably deduced to be considered valid. Therefore, the character should demonstrate itself to be capable of doing something like a push up (i.e. pushing much of its weight up with just its hands), wrestling with other monsters at around the same size, or flying by wings (or any non-supernatural means of lifting their weight into the air) or other acceptable lifting strength feat to have the lifting strength tiered to the yield of such feat.

If there are evidence the reference figures these giant characters scale up from can lift way more than their own weight (e.g. a centipede can lift up to 15 times its own weight), such consideration should be taken into account."
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I don't think the last paragraph should stay. Just being a Centipede doesn't mean that a giant would be able to lift 15x it's own weight.

The rest seems fine to me now tho.
 
Thank you for helping out to Jasonsith and Kieran.
 
I agree with Kieran's adjustment. We should stick with a consistent basis. In the void of another lifting feat, they should scale to their own mass.
 
I still do not believe that they should scale to their own mass without a feat to suggest such as Jason's current draft implies. If they don't have a lifting strength feat, they should not get a lifting strength value, being big is not a lifting strength feat.
 
Maybe if there are no feats their LS should be something like Unknown (Weights 40000 tons), to at least give an idea of the relative scope of their LS, even though an exact number cannot be obtained?
 
I feel that would simply cause confusion and adding that to a Lifting Strength section would imply a Lifting Strength value of such.

We already support having a Mass section on the likes of Vehicle Profiles, while it's generally not done, I don't believe anyone would be directly opposed to an optional section which is similar in cases like this.
 
You know I thought Superhuman was used for LS fears that are definitely far greater than humans but to an unknowable degree. Instead of Unknown I feel like we should acknowledge most giant beings would have a superhuman LS when compared to humans. It may not be known exactly what their LS would be but at the least it would be considered generally higher than human's and most animal's that are of their regular sizes. I should also point on position and proper form are often involved with a lot of weight-based training irl and there's different muscles used for things that give different results. It's not all equal. For example, lifting a Bowling ball from the ground standing up takes more effort (at least for me) than laying down and pushing with your chest. You can kick a bowling ball too and it will barely budge but you can easily lift it and move it with your arms or using your entire body. It's hard to judge a general LS because there's many nuances involved in lifting strength for all kinds of animals including us. This is why I think ignoring physics and applying a multiplier based on their body types is probably the best bet.

Or we just go with the "they can raise their limbs which would likely be __kg so their LS should generally at least be in this range but could be higher" stance. I also find it hard to think of any giant characters who haven't tussled with similarly sized characters which would already make their LS scale to body weight.

Me personally most giant characters are probably gonna be able to lift anything smaller than them unless it's super dense. Like, I can't picture a giant character not being able to lift a tank up off the ground and throw it or throw tons upon tons of unearthed ground. Of course, we are inclined not to base ratings off guesstimates, but I feel like for some cases we should. It should be a generally agreed upon rating though.

For an example, let's look at Toothless. He's large. Easily able to carry humans, but if there were no feats present would you assume he could lift a car easily? Despite being a bit larger than most cars? No, he'd probably struggle to move it effectively. It would approach the limits of his LS. At least in my mind.

I mean hell, don't we usually assume for the more human profiles that they're average human until shown otherwise? If we don't we should imo.
 
I'm fine with using Superhuman Lifting Strength for large sized characters I guess, that is essentially our "estimate" Lifting Strength value that we have so that we can use it in clear cases like this.

Without feats, we do not make estimates like this in any other statistic, regardless of size or whatnot. So my stance is essentially the same as before. But as has been said, Superhuman Lifting Strength is basically made for cases like this, so I'm fine with that.
 
So
1. No lifting strength derived from size alone - does that stay even if the monster can lift themselves with a relatively partial body mass (like doing push-ups, sit ups, jump up at a relatively high height, fly, etc)
2. Should this rule apply for speed and attack potency as well for consistency? (Like if we can derive attack potency and speed from size, why lifting strength should be different?)
2.1. Kaijus and giant robots punch each other and push around each other. Do we get allowance for these characters to have speed, attack potency and lifting strength derived from scaled up humans or other creatures?
Like, do giant monsters/robots fighting with other giant monsters/robots count as feats where AP, speed and lifting strength can be derived from estimated size?
3. By saying "centipede should not scale from lifting 15 times its own weight" we are ignoring a part of what the creatures are?

Up for further discussion.
 
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1) I think that doing push-ups or similar should show that their strengths are of the same orders as their personal mass.

2) I don't think that we should mess with any other statistics. That would make things worse, not better.

2.1) I personally think that it should be fine.

3) Well, fantasy centipedes of enormous size are not automatically the same as far smaller real world counterparts, so I do not think that we should scale strength multipliers in this manner.
 
What DontTalk accepted is probably fine to apply. Thank you for helping out.
 
Okay.

Redraft ver. Boxing Day:

"Lifting Strength could be calculated from size with only clearly defined assumptions. While it is intuitive that characters have to lift their own body weight to move around, lifting strength is the weight that they can lift in addition to that. Like any other characters, a lifting strength level has to be shown, or at least reasonably deduced, to be considered valid. Therefore, the character should demonstrate itself to be capable of performing a lifting strength feat to have the lifting strength tiered to the yield of the feat in question.

It is worth noting that there are cases where giant characters have to push around other giant characters or engage in physical brawls with them. In such cases, the masses of the combatants involved can be taken as lifting strength yields. In a similar fashion, a giant character has to be capable of doing push-ups, sit-ups or squats; jumping reasonably high, or performing strength-demanding acrobatics to have their own mass being taken as lifting strength.

There is evidence that the reference figures these giant characters scale up from can lift far more than their own weight (e.g. a centipede can lift up to 15 times its own weight). However, it has currently been agreed that such considerations should not been taken into account (i.e. characters only get their yields as if they are normal humans) unless there are very strong official statements, and knowledgeable staff members give particular exemptions or allowances."
 
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Thank you. Should we not also mention push-ups, jumping reasonably high, and strength-demanding acrobatics as examples of demonstrating comparative strength to a gigantic personal body weight?
 
Jasonsith said:
Okay.

Redraft ver. Boxing Day:

"Lifting Strength could be calculated from size with only clearly defined assumptions. While it is intuitive characters have to lift their own body weight to move around, lifting strength is the weight they can lift in addition to that. Like any other characters, a lifting strength level has to be shown or at least reasonably deduced to be considered valid. Therefore, the character should demonstrate itself to be capable of performing a lifting strength feat to have the lifting strength tiered to the yield of such feat.

It is worth noting meanwhile that there are cases where giant characters have to push around other giant characters or engage in physical brawls with them. In such cases, the masses of the combatants involved can be taken as lifting strength yields. In a similar fashion, a giant character has to be capable of doping quick push-ups, sit-ups or squats; jumping reasonably high, or performing strength-demanding acrobatics to have their own mass being taken as lifting strength.

There are evidences that the reference figures these giant characters scale up from can lift way more than their own weight (e.g. a centipede can lift up to 15 times its own weight). However, it has currently been agreed upon that such consideration should not been taken into account (i.e. characters only get their yields as if they are normal humans) unless there are very strong official statements where knowledgeable staff members give particular exemptions or allowances."
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This looks mostly fine to me now. What do the rest of you think?
 
Jasonsith said:
Okay.

Redraft ver. Boxing Day:

"Lifting Strength could be calculated from size with only clearly defined assumptions. While it is intuitive characters have to lift their own body weight to move around, lifting strength is the weight they can lift in addition to that. Like any other characters, a lifting strength level has to be shown or at least reasonably deduced to be considered valid. Therefore, the character should demonstrate itself to be capable of performing a lifting strength feat to have the lifting strength tiered to the yield of such feat.

It is worth noting meanwhile that there are cases where giant characters have to push around other giant characters or engage in physical brawls with them. In such cases, the masses of the combatants involved can be taken as lifting strength yields. In a similar fashion, a giant character has to be capable of doping quick push-ups, sit-ups or squats; jumping reasonably high, or performing strength-demanding acrobatics to have their own mass being taken as lifting strength.

There are evidences that the reference figures these giant characters scale up from can lift way more than their own weight (e.g. a centipede can lift up to 15 times its own weight). However, it has currently been agreed upon that such consideration should not been taken into account (i.e. characters only get their yields as if they are normal humans) unless there are very strong official statements where knowledgeable staff members give particular exemptions or allowances."
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Seems fine. Shall we apply that then?
 
Yes, feel free to apply the version with "doping" replaced with "doing".
 
Jasonsith said:
"Lifting Strength could be calculated from size with only clearly defined assumptions. While it is intuitive that characters have to lift their own body weight to move around, lifting strength is the weight that they can lift in addition to that. Like any other characters, a lifting strength level has to be shown, or at least reasonably deduced, to be considered valid. Therefore, the character should demonstrate itself to be capable of performing a lifting strength feat to have the lifting strength tiered to the yield of the feat in question.

It is worth noting that there are cases where giant characters have to push around other giant characters or engage in physical brawls with them. In such cases, the masses of the combatants involved can be taken as lifting strength yields. In a similar fashion, a giant character has to be capable of doing push-ups, sit-ups or squats; jumping reasonably high, or performing strength-demanding acrobatics to have their own mass being taken as lifting strength.

There is evidence that the reference figures these giant characters scale up from can lift far more than their own weight (e.g. a centipede can lift up to 15 times its own weight). However, it has currently been agreed that such considerations should not been taken into account (i.e. characters only get their yields as if they are normal humans) unless there are very strong official statements, and knowledgeable staff members give particular exemptions or allowances."
Click to expand...
I have tried to clean up the language flow.
 
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