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but moving around is just the lifting strength of your legs is the problem, you can be acrobatic but not be able to lift a crumb (hyperbole)
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Large Size and Lifting Strength
- Thread starter Mr. Bambu
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Mr. Bambu
Suffer-Not-Injustice Bambu
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This is what I was thinking as well, aye. On a smaller scale, I admit this can run into issues. But in the areas where lifting strength tiers are 10x, 100x, and so on, this rule should absolutely apply.
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But the lifting strength of the Hungarian Horntail has already been scaled to its own weight so shouldn't this scale proportionally to Balerion or Paarthurnax since they are dragons whose front limbs are wings?!
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I doubt a fictional giant ant will follow same rules as a real life giant sized ant.
Strength does not increase in real life even with increased scale in size.
While in fiction it does...another real life rule broken. Which shows they have proportionally more strength for their given size.
Also fat people just add more mass without increasing their size proportionally in all directions, or even their strength. So thats already a bad comparison.
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and? it would still be a complete disregard for inhuman physiology and an assumption that mass scales to lifting strength while no evidence seems to support that
not sure how to respond to this sense it ignores some of my argument, but
it being increased in fiction is
1. a generalization
2. what we're currently debating, saying it's true doesn't make it true
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just as a reminder
1. mass shouldn't scale to weight because the person must always hold their own weight, that's like saying if a guy has training weights, he should be able to lift another set of training weights because he is lifting the first set, or like saying if he can lift twice his body weight, then he should be able to lift twice twice his body weight, it just is a crime against logic
2. most characters in fiction have superhuman or inhuman physical characteristics, especially when it comes it fictional species, so we have absolutely no reliable way of getting their lifting strength
3. if a character already has unrealistic super strength or something that allows them to dish out more than their size allows, how would it make sense to say their lifting strength should scale directly to their size?
1. mass shouldn't scale to weight because the person must always hold their own weight, that's like saying if a guy has training weights, he should be able to lift another set of training weights because he is lifting the first set, or like saying if he can lift twice his body weight, then he should be able to lift twice twice his body weight, it just is a crime against logic
2. most characters in fiction have superhuman or inhuman physical characteristics, especially when it comes it fictional species, so we have absolutely no reliable way of getting their lifting strength
3. if a character already has unrealistic super strength or something that allows them to dish out more than their size allows, how would it make sense to say their lifting strength should scale directly to their size?
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But actually i was trying to scale the Hungarian Horntail to Balerion and Drogon since they both are dragons with wings as the front limbs.
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My apologies for entering here, but what if the monster is humanoid?
Can the 98.766% lifting strength be applied?
Can the 98.766% lifting strength be applied?
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The fact that strength does increase proportionally to size in fiction for the sole reason that they can lift their weight...which would be completely impossible with irl logic....tells us that this extra strength is well worth indexing.
We are using a standard general case.....so I don't know why exceptional cases are a problems...exceptions are exceptions...we treat them as such.
Excuse me what??
Hiw will you justify your paradoxical claim??
This is a strawman...if we have someone lift something we have a feat...we index it and issue is over.
Everything else you just said..is just mischaracterisation.
How do you know if a character has super unrealistic strength above their iwn size??
Lemme gues....FEATS ...... which probably show LS which is way beyond their size.....you know the rules and so do I....we index feats and be done with it.
The cases we are concerned with are large sized bodies which need strength to NOT ONLY support their weight BUT ALSO be reasonably physical active....which ignores irl logic that doesn't allow physical strength to increase proportionally to size.
This extra strength needed to support their weight is well worth recording.
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If we were to take a real-life ant and increase its size hundreds of times, it would be crushed under its own weight and explode.
Exactly the same thing would happen with a real human being. Giants in fiction are not just normal people who grew in size, their very nature is super human, making them able to support their weight as if it were nothing.
As an example, take the strongest human, and increase their size 10 times, what would happen to this person? Their bones would start to break, their muscles would start to tear, and their whole body would start to flatten. Why does this happen? Simple, the human body is not built to withstand so much pressure. Growing in size does not increase strength proportionally, and to be able to withstand that, your entire biology would have to be much stronger than that of any human.
So I agree with Bambu, giants should absolutely scale from their own weight, as they have to be much stronger than their size would suggest to actually be able to support it.
Exactly the same thing would happen with a real human being. Giants in fiction are not just normal people who grew in size, their very nature is super human, making them able to support their weight as if it were nothing.
As an example, take the strongest human, and increase their size 10 times, what would happen to this person? Their bones would start to break, their muscles would start to tear, and their whole body would start to flatten. Why does this happen? Simple, the human body is not built to withstand so much pressure. Growing in size does not increase strength proportionally, and to be able to withstand that, your entire biology would have to be much stronger than that of any human.
So I agree with Bambu, giants should absolutely scale from their own weight, as they have to be much stronger than their size would suggest to actually be able to support it.
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Not just is that what Therefir said. Large size monsters are usually known for pushing around other monsters, which are meant to be at around the same size and likely mass of the said monsters or the scaled up counterparts of the original models. So large size monsters being able to push around other monsters of similar size does not just mean the large monsters can support their own weight, but also the weight of the opponent (which is of similar mass).
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Isn’t pushing considered Striking Strength rather than Lifting Strength in this case?
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Just out of curiosity since we talking about larger beings such as that of a giant there are few questions regarding this.
1. Are we treating size as if it equal to weight in the case of Giants? Because I am pretty sure size don’t always correlate with weight as we talking about whatever or not their LS does fully scaled from their weight
2. What happened if say there is a monster that struggles to lift a building or something?
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Pushing is LS (IMO)
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The difference is that a push generally is done with the intent of moving something rather than hurting it and there's longer contact with whatever you're pushing
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Wait, now I think about it. I usually think of lifting objects counts as LS as pushing doesn’t equate to lifting a object is it?
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No it does, for a calc's sake you need to multiply it for a friction coefficient but it is usable for LS
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We will only consider large bodies which are reasonable fit.
For example some entities can produce more force for jumping or running compared to entities of similar size/stature.
So large bodies won't get LS just for standing obviously. Swift movement, acrobatics, or flight are good parameters to qualify for LS via size I think.
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Alrighty, but I kinda felt like pushing could also been used as Striking Strength as well given we could also use the argument that their LS is or isn’t equal to Striking Strength for the Larger size, but that is just me though.
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fair enough, I can concede to this
I still think it needs to be considered on a case by case basis but we probably agree on that anyways
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I would like to note that if we consider a Kaiju surviving its own weight to be lifting strength, then them pushing something is going to always be essentially double their own weight, as it would include their own weight, plus the weight of the other kaiju that they're moving. This simply is not the case in essentially all feats or real life.
A person never has to account their own weight into how much their lifting, because they aren't pushing their own weight, but Lifting Strength feats in this situation would all be essentially doubled as a result of this assumption.
I still do not believe even if this goes through that it is fair to only use this on Kaiju or large characters, since the only change being proposed here is "weight = lifting strength", that is in no way some exclusive thing that should only be taken into account with kaiju. If it is assumed somewhere, it should be assumed everywhere.
I still disagree with this.
A person never has to account their own weight into how much their lifting, because they aren't pushing their own weight, but Lifting Strength feats in this situation would all be essentially doubled as a result of this assumption.
I still do not believe even if this goes through that it is fair to only use this on Kaiju or large characters, since the only change being proposed here is "weight = lifting strength", that is in no way some exclusive thing that should only be taken into account with kaiju. If it is assumed somewhere, it should be assumed everywhere.
I still disagree with this.
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A person when runs out of stamina or suffers from crippling exhaustion...literally collapses due to not being able to stand up...because they are weak to do so.....too weak to hold their own weight. We just take our own strength to stand up for granted without appreciation.
I think we elaborated on why large characters have something special about their strength and biology. So I don't see why this applies to everything.
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If they can lift their own weight to an extreme extent then lifting their own weight + something equal to their weight would be possible, although twice as hard it would still be simple to do
So really it sorta does scale to their own weight if they can be acrobatic, but it depends on context sometimes
So really it sorta does scale to their own weight if they can be acrobatic, but it depends on context sometimes
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According to a official medical websites: https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-...ert-answers/body-weight-training/faq-20147966
“
Yes. Body-weight training — using only your body weight for resistance — can be an effective type of strength training and a good addition to your fitness program. Body-weight training can be as effective as training with free weights or weight machines.
The Department of Health and Human Services recommends getting at least 150 minutes of moderate aerobic activity or 75 minutes of vigorous aerobic activity a week, or a combination of moderate and vigorous activity. Aim to include strength training exercises for all major muscle groups into a fitness routine at least two times a week.
To use your body weight in strength training exercises, try exercises such a”
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So shouldn't the same thing also apply to Drogon, Balerion and other dragons of their kind?
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@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality
Can you read through the arguments of Mr. Bambu, Therefir, and myself above, to see if they seem to make sense, please?
Can you read through the arguments of Mr. Bambu, Therefir, and myself above, to see if they seem to make sense, please?
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Thing is, they can't use the strength needed to support their own physiology to lift something else.
If you weigh 1000 tons then you might need to "lift thousand tons" to stand, but whenever you lift something you need to lift 1000tons of your own weight + weight of what you're lifting. Your lifting strength doesn't get higher.
Following this reasoning we would need to upgrade all our humans lifting strength, as a weight lifter that lifts a weight up from the ground would lift the weight + his own body weight (or the weight of his upper body at least).
Same for every lifting strength calculation where someone picks something up from the ground.
Nobody that measures lifting strength would usually do it that way. When anyone asks "how much can you lift" they always implicitely mean "how much can you lift aside from the body weight you need to lift whenever you lift anything anyways".
When a 120kg man can lift 50kg and a 60kg man can lift 70kg, nobody would say that the 120kg man is stronger since body weight taken into account he lifted more. Since he can't turn off his body weight to lift without it. He is bound to always carry that extra burden.
That's also why horses are said to only carry 20% of their own body weight. Not because they are crushed by their own weight constantly, but because they can lift 20% of it in addition to their body weight they always have t support.
Well, if they have feats of pushing around other large size monsters, maybe their lifting strength should be determined by that instead of by their own body weight.
If the character demonstrates doing something like a push up (i.e. pushing much of its weight up with just its hands) or flying by wings (I.e. non-supernatural means of lifting their weight into the air) then that's a callable lifting strength feat. However, those things should actually need to happen. Just being large and moving around fast doesn't prove this stuff.
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Just like to note on the page when it comes to physical exercises, the body weight is being treated as a resistance against the strength of the arm so I will think using body weight for anything higher than a human does seem flawed tbh.
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Okay. Thank you for the evaluations.
Would you be willing to adjust our Lifting Strength page explanations regarding these issues, so what you described above is properly clarified there please?
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Just to be sure, how about stuff like jumping really high (relative to its height, although I guess that itself can be calculated) or, I dunno, something like a cartwheel or a backflip?
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Since jump involves facing air resistance, gravity, and some other factors, I will think that might not equate to LS since when I think of lifting strength, I usually think of the arms rather than the entire body.
However, cartwheels and backflip could been used as LS feats.
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Its not like legs have Astronomically more lifting strength than arms.
Besides many muscles besides legs are used in jumps.
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It is true that the Legs may or may not necessarily have stronger LS than the arms, but last I checked Jump involved using the legs to propel itself into the air and when I mean that, I do mean that.
Otherwise, jumping from the arms doesn’t sound feasible enough as the legs in the case of a human is what being needed to jump upwards.
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So we gonna separately mention LS for the legs of fictional large sized bodies ??
Especially when specific body part strengths aren't eveb differentiable in fictiom for supernaturally strong characters.
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I think the ability to vertically apply force is more than sufficient criteria.
Also why would be disqualify non-winged flight?? Especially those that use aura/energy based flight? Or UES for short?
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https://www.quora.com/Why-am-I-a-lot-stronger-on-my-legs-than-arms
According to a coach, the legs are actually stronger than arms in case of humans, but other than that, I don’t think it will necessarily apply to larger beings unless they shown to do stuff like kicks.
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""Astronomically""
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Alright, but if the wiki is treating LS to account for the full body then I have no solid solution to solve that issue.
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