Lady Nagant Bullet Speed Downgrade

[KingTempest]

Lady Nagant has this as a justification for her bullets

higher attack speed (Her bullets can outpace 45% Deku, who had difficulty dodging them even with Danger Sense. Can increase the size of her Rifle arm, enhancing the speed of her bullets even further)

He did not have difficulty dodging because of the speed.
He caught one in his bare hand with no issues. Deflected one behind him, dodged one point blank, dodged another, and dodged another.
She even noted that he blocked 2 of her shots.

The only thing hinting that it was speed wise was this statement at the bottom, but it's common sense that if you move closer, it'll be harder to dodge and you'll need better reactions for closer objects. That's not a feat for her.

I don't have a huge issue with the "higher attack speed", but the justification is exaggerating it. The

(Can increase the size of her Rifle arm, enhancing the speed of her bullets even further)

is good enough.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yeah, my impression from the fight wasn't that Nagant had anything physically on Deku (speed, AP, dura), but rather the obstacle was overcoming her range and ability to stay hidden. Obviously, I agree.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Agreed.

 

[joshpiece]

Agreed

 

[Eminiteable]

I agree with this

 

[KingTempest]

She even noted that he blocked 2 of her shots.

Added to OP

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I disagree for several reasons.

To begin; the first shot you’re using to claim he can easily react to her bullets is from the farthest she ever is from Deku during the battle: 1 kilometer. In fact, despite being 1 kilometer from Deku, she immediately shoots ANOTHER bullet at him which he barely raises an arm upwards to block, destroying his Mid Gauntlet. He directly attributes that if he did not have Danger Sense, he would have already lost. If he can react to her bullets, why would he make that claim, and didn’t just dodge the bullets similar to how he dodged dozens of obstacles during the provisional license exam?



The other examples you’ve brought up are similarly not as impressive for evidence. Your second panel was her baiting him and is immediately followed by her hitting him in the stomach. You next panel is him aim dodging, as was determined in a potential upgrade thread and has been debunked as him dodging point blank. (This thread here.) In the other two instances he gets tagged after both of those panels.



It feels like you just got a bunch of panels of Deku avoiding or blocking her shots and took them out of context to say he can react to any attack from her with ease. He is only still alive because of Danger Sense alerting him before he is hit.

In fact, her shots being so much faster than him is directly why his feat for Faux 100% is so relevant. As Nagant says, he not only catches up to her bullet, surpassing its speed, but did so as she was firing. If he did not activate Fa Jin at this time, he would not have caught up to the bullet to save (kinda) Overhaul.



If your claim is that he is fast enough to catch her bullets anyway, why would she be surprised by this feat, especially when she already witness his ability to move faster than her perception earlier? She and Deku are comparable in speed, as shown from her regarding him as fast and only barely dodging his Blackwhip attack.



So if they’re comparable base to base, why would she be shocked by him reacting to her aiming and firing? She even notes that him catching up isn’t even the impressive part, just him noticing her movements and responding.

Him blocking two of her shots is her being impressed. She has no idea of his multiple quirks, nor does she know he has precognition. All For One sent her after Deku completely blind. So her statement there doesn’t mean anything since she doesn’t know how he managed to block those shots, which was through Danger Sense alerting him, not his own reaction speed.

 

[TheRustyOne]

As the person who made her profile, her bullet did indeed outpace him. Her bullet came straight from behind, and was actually catching up with him. Obviously her bullet is faster than him, since if it was equal or slower than him, her bullet would not be able to catch up to him.

I'm not saying her bullets blitz Izuku, it's wrong to say her bullets are not faster than 45% Izuku.

But they are without a doubt faster than him, when comparing his movements to the bullet. Her bullets always travel at a greater distance than he can in the same timeframe. Izuku actually moved before she fired there, and even then her bullet went farther compared to him.

Also saying he caught her bullet with no issue is a little absurd, nothing about that fight was easy or no issue, she was one of his most difficult fights in the entire series.

Suggestion: higher attack speed (Her bullets can outpace 45% Izuku. Can increase the size of her Rifle arm, enhancing the speed of her bullets even further)

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Question about durability: Why Low 7-B+?

She literally had her arm broken by a kick from Deku easily

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Question about durability: Why Low 7-B+?

She literally had her arm broken by a kick from Deku easily

I thought her durability was unknown for that exact reason?

 

[TheRustyOne]

Faux 100% scales to the actual 100%, 45% is Low 7-B+ while 100% is 7-B and almost ripped off the jaw of Shigaraki who scales above 45%.

Also only her Rifle arm is Low 7-B+ in dura, the rest of her body is far more fragile.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Faux 100% scales to the actual 100%, 45% is Low 7-B+ while 100% is 7-B and almost ripped off the jaw of Shigaraki who scales above 45%.

Also only her Rifle arm is Low 7-B+ in dura, the rest of her body is far more fragile.

He actually didn’t kick her with his Faux 100% leg. He loses Fa Jin from his left leg, then says he still has one leg charged up, then hits her with his left leg, which doesn’t have the charge.

 

[TheRustyOne]

The trail that goes through her rifle arm is from his Fa Jin leg.

It's simple logic, she can "punch" 45% Izuku with her rifle arm. For every reaction there is a equal and opposite reaction, the recoil of her own attack would've broken her arm had her right arm not have Low 7-B durability.

 

[TheRustyOne]

I mean, I don't mind removing it since she doesn't block attacks with her rifle arm and it's a rather worthless statistic. Also I guess it would be rather confusing.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

As the person who made her profile, her bullet did indeed outpace him. Her bullet came straight from behind, and was actually catching up with him. Obviously her bullet is faster than him, since if it was equal or slower than him, her bullet would not be able to catch up to him.

I'm not saying her bullets blitz Izuku, it's wrong to say her bullets are not faster than 45% Izuku.

But they are without a doubt faster than him, when comparing his movements to the bullet. Her bullets always travel at a greater distance than he can in the same timeframe. Izuku actually moved before she fired there, and even then her bullet went farther compared to him.

Also saying he caught her bullet with no issue is a little absurd, nothing about that fight was easy or no issue, she was one of his most difficult fights in the entire series.

Suggestion: higher attack speed (Her bullets can outpace 45% Izuku. Can increase the size of her Rifle arm, enhancing the speed of her bullets even further)

Couldn't that just be deku got tired and need to deflect it instead?

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Couldn't that just be deku got tired and need to deflect it instead?

He wasn’t tired at that time. It has taken literal days of nonstop running and fighting with no sleep and minimal food for Deku to get to a point that being tired takes a toll on him.

 

[TheRustyOne]

He's jumping, he can't stop without launching another attack to push himself out of the way. He doesn't fly he floats, and then propels his body. He's not even using Float here though, he's jumping from building to building.

I also didn't realize Izuku gets tired in like two minutes at most.

 

[KingTempest]

To begin; the first shot you’re using to claim he can easily react to her bullets is from the farthest she ever is from Deku during the battle: 1 kilometer. In fact, despite being 1 kilometer from Deku, she immediately shoots ANOTHER bullet at him which he barely raises an arm upwards to block, destroying his Mid Gauntlet. He directly attributes that if he did not have Danger Sense, he would have already lost. If he can react to her bullets, why would he make that claim, and didn’t just dodge the bullets similar to how he dodged dozens of obstacles during the provisional license exam?

I quote Deku's thoughts

Even snipe sensei is jealous of her accuracy! And there's barely any downtime between those shots!! Without the forth's quirk backing me up, I'd already be a goner! But, based on the first shot and then this one... I can tell where she is!! About one kilometer ahead! And her range is three kilometers! dodging more shots while trying to escape that range would be tough,

He literally says that this is an issue with the accuracy of the bullets and the downtime of the shooting. The fact that you pulled speed out of your ass is astonishing.
She was shooting him from behind his back and doing trick shots. That's not speed related.

The other examples you’ve brought up are similarly not as impressive for evidence. Your second panel was her baiting him and is immediately followed by her hitting him in the stomach. You next panel is him aim dodging, as was determined in a potential upgrade thread and has been debunked as him dodging point blank. (This thread here.) In the other two instances he gets tagged after both of those panels.

The second panel is him reacting to a non trick shot and kicking it out of mid air with no issues and he got hit and referenced her hitting him from behind with a trick shot.
The next panel is him not getting hit by a point blank attack.

It feels like you just got a bunch of panels of Deku avoiding or blocking her shots and took them out of context to say he can react to any attack from her with ease. He is only still alive because of Danger Sense alerting him before he is hit.

Danger Sense did not give him a perception increase. Danger Sense told him where trick shots would land.
It's like giving someone an increase in speed for a technique because the fighting style is unpredictable.

In fact, her shots being so much faster than him is directly why his feat for Faux 100% is so relevant. As Nagant says, he not only catches up to her bullet, surpassing its speed, but did so as she was firing. If he did not activate Fa Jin at this time, he would not have caught up to the bullet to save (kinda) Overhaul.

If your claim is that he is fast enough to catch her bullets anyway, why would she be surprised by this feat, especially when she already witness his ability to move faster than her perception earlier? She and Deku are comparable in speed, as shown from her regarding him as fast and only barely dodging his Blackwhip attack.

Did I say that the bullet can't be faster?
I said that the justification that makes it contesting his danger sense solely for it's speed is incorrect.

So if they’re comparable base to base, why would she be shocked by him reacting to her aiming and firing? She even notes that him catching up isn’t even the impressive part, just him noticing her movements and responding.

Because he predicted the trajectory of the shots, which she explains.
And please note, that is a good movement/travel speed feat.

Him blocking two of her shots is her being impressed. She has no idea of his multiple quirks, nor does she know he has precognition. All For One sent her after Deku completely blind. So her statement there doesn’t mean anything since she doesn’t know how he managed to block those shots, which was through Danger Sense alerting him, not his own reaction speed.

Your argument was "he got hit by attacks and he struggled and needed danger sense". Not everything is speed wise.
Deku in this entire encounter did not compliment her bullets' speed even once, all he talked about was her skill.
Nothing about her speed for bullets being shot was emphasized to the point where it makes it seem like her bullets' raw speed shat on his reactions + danger sense.

You're saying it as if she looked him dead in his eye while he braced for impact as if it was a cowboy showdown, she shot the bullet, his danger sense activated, and he still got hit, and he couldn't dodge because of the speed.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Is my suggestion fine with you?

higher attack speed (Her bullets can outpace 45% Izuku. Can increase the size of her Rifle arm, enhancing the speed of her bullets even further)

What about her rifle arm durability, do you agree that should be removed as well?

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Nagant trying to get controversial on the wiki too lol

 

[KingTempest]

Is my suggestion fine with you?

higher attack speed (Her bullets can outpace 45% Izuku. Can increase the size of her Rifle arm, enhancing the speed of her bullets even further)

I'm perfectly fine with this

What about her rifle arm durability, do you agree that should be removed as well?

Yeah I think it should be removed

 

[TheRustyOne]

People are very passionate about things they love.

Just remember to not go overboard.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I quote Deku's thoughts

He literally says that this is an issue with the accuracy of the bullets and the downtime of the shooting. The fact that you pulled speed out of your ass is astonishing.
She was shooting him from behind his back and doing trick shots. That's not speed related.

The second panel is him reacting to a non trick shot and kicking it out of mid air with no issues and he got hit and referenced her hitting him from behind with a trick shot.
The next panel is him not getting hit by a point blank attack.

Danger Sense did not give him a perception increase. Danger Sense told him where trick shots would land.
It's like giving someone an increase in speed for a technique because the fighting style is unpredictable.

Did I say that the bullet can't be faster?
I said that the justification that makes it contesting his danger sense solely for it's speed is incorrect.

Because he predicted the trajectory of the shots, which she explains.
And please note, that is a good movement/travel speed feat.

Your argument was "he got hit by attacks and he struggled and needed danger sense". Not everything is speed wise.
Deku in this entire encounter did not compliment her bullets' speed even once, all he talked about was her skill.
Nothing about her speed for bullets being shot was emphasized to the point where it makes it seem like her bullets' raw speed shat on his reactions + danger sense.

You're saying it as if she looked him dead in his eye while he braced for impact as if it was a cowboy showdown, she shot the bullet, his danger sense activated, and he still got hit, and he couldn't dodge because of the speed.

Excuse me? Pulled speed out of my ass? Do you know what downtime means? That’s a direct compliment to her speed if there is no downtime between her shots. She’s a kilometer away and he can only barely react to her attacks. He verbatim says that without Danger Sense he would already be a goner.

Incorrect. The second panel is him kicking a curved bullet out of the air, then getting shot by her shooting directly at him, because she predicted he would block the curved bullet. The bullet coming from behind him was the trick bullet that she curved around a building, the one that hit him was shot directly from her.

The next panel is him aim dodging, as was agreed with in the thread I linked. If you would like to reopen that thread and argue for Massively Hypersonic 45% Deku, please do.

Those two things are not the same at all. Danger Sense alerts him of the location of Danger prior to it reaching him or whatever it seems to be “in danger.” Her bullets proc Danger Sense, but he still struggles to block her bullets. As I showed in the other panel of the provisional license exam, Deku should not struggle whatsoever if he knows the direction of her attacks, he has dodged far more difficult attacks than bullets. Heck, him dodging the energy beams from Nine is a better feat than dodging bullets.

You are directly claiming that her bullets aren’t faster than him though? The wiki literally has her bullets at outpacing him even though he has Danger Sense, yet you’re claiming he doesn’t need Danger Sense to dodge her attacks.

Does it need to be spelled out for us to confer that the speed of her bullets was lending to his inability to dodge a lot of her attacks?

Your issue is that you see him praise her skill and therefore ignore any other context that implies that her bullet speed is also impressive. None of what you attempted to debunk removes the reality that her bullets are reaching him near instantly from a kilometer away, as in after slowing down. The initial velocity of her bullets is far higher than their velocity a kilometer away. Them slowing down over long distances, but still pressuring Deku so hard he breaks a Mid Gauntlet to not get hit and die, is absolutely evidence that they are higher in speed than he is.

 

[Nierre]

Goddamn Tempest He actually went and made a Nagant downgrade thread.

 

[KingTempest]

Excuse me? Pulled speed out of my ass? Do you know what downtime means? That’s a direct compliment to her speed if there is no downtime between her shots. She’s a kilometer away and he can only barely react to her attacks. He verbatim says that without Danger Sense he would already be a goner.

Downtime is not related to the attack speed of bullets.

He verbatim says that without Danger Sense he would already be a goner.

If you turn around right, and somebody shoots you from behind you, Deku's Danger Sense would alert you that there's an attack behind you.
If you don't have that sense, you will get shot.
Danger Sense helped in a way that wasn't speed related.
I think you forgot the purpose of Danger Sense and you twisted it to specifically be only a reaction amp and a precog instead of its purpose to sense danger.

Incorrect. The second panel is him kicking a curved bullet out of the air, then getting shot by her shooting directly at him, because she predicted he would block the curved bullet. The bullet coming from behind him was the trick bullet that she curved around a building, the one that hit him was shot directly from her.

Oh wow. You know what I see from your argument? Nothing speed related. You literally just explained how she finessed a shot in by preoccupying him with a bullet.
You basically said

She hit him because she distracted him via one bullet and the other one hit him while he was busy.

Those two things are not the same at all. Danger Sense alerts him of the location of Danger prior to it reaching him or whatever it seems to be “in danger.” Her bullets proc Danger Sense, but he still struggles to block her bullets. As I showed in the other panel of the provisional license exam, Deku should not struggle whatsoever if he knows the direction of her attacks, he has dodged far more difficult attacks than bullets. Heck, him dodging the energy beams from Nine is a better feat than dodging bullets.

Have you ever tried to hit a curveball?
The ball goes straight so you see it's direction.
Out of nowhere it curves badly to the point where you can't do shit about it unless you're lucky or skilled enough to hit the curveball.
Deku has a sense that tells him the direction that the curveball is going, but he has to adjust so he can manage to hit the curveball.
You're trying to say that Deku can't hit the ball because it's a fastball instead, but they give several reasons why and speed isn't one of them.

You are directly claiming that her bullets aren’t faster than him though? The wiki literally has her bullets at outpacing him even though he has Danger Sense, yet you’re claiming he doesn’t need Danger Sense to dodge her attacks.

I literally said verbatim in the OP

I don't have a huge issue with the "higher attack speed", but the justification is exaggerating it. The

(Can increase the size of her Rifle arm, enhancing the speed of her bullets even further)

is good enough.

I never said that they aren't faster.

Does it need to be spelled out for us to confer that the speed of her bullets was lending to his inability to dodge a lot of her attacks?

Does it need to be read out to you to confer that the skill of the shooter was lending to his inability to dodge a lot of her attacks?

Your issue is that you see him praise her skill and therefore ignore any other context that implies that her bullet speed is also impressive. None of what you attempted to debunk removes the reality that her bullets are reaching him near instantly from a kilometer away, as in after slowing down. The initial velocity of her bullets is far higher than their velocity a kilometer away. Them slowing down over long distances, but still pressuring Deku so hard he breaks a Mid Gauntlet to not get hit and die, is absolutely evidence that they are higher in speed than he is.

My issue is that the justification says that her bullets basically body him and his danger sense amped reaction speed.
I said already that I'm fine with the outpacing to be valid.
I'm not fine with her bullet's speed to be absolutely above his speed when there's nothing that says that the sole purpose that he couldn't dodge is her speed.

We're given several reasons canonically for why he got hit and why his feats are relevant, and she even says that him outpacing the bullet is irrelevant, and the only thing you picked up from it was speed.

 

[KingTempest]

Goddamn Tempest He actually went and made a Nagant downgrade thread.

He told me to

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Following. I'll need time to review all of the stuff so far and consider which side I lean towards.

 

[TheRustyOne]

I think we all agree her bullets are faster than him, considering he was fine with my suggestion.

Danger Sense tells him where her bullets are coming from, Izuku would've lost without it because he can't locate them by sight. They're bullets, it's dark, it's raining, and they have a wicked curve. Kind of hard to keep track of bullets like that. Without Danger Sense that bullet from behind would've gone straight through his back.

So yes, without Danger Sense he loses. And if he gets too close to her he won't be able to dodge her rapid fire of attacks.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I think we all agree her bullets are faster than him, considering he was fine with my suggestion.

Danger Sense tells him where her bullets are coming from, Izuku would've lost without it because he can't locate them by sight. They're bullets, it's dark, it's raining, and they have a wicked curve. Kind of hard to keep track of bullets like that. Without Danger Sense that bullet from behind would've gone straight through his back.

So yes, without Danger Sense he loses. And if he gets too close to her he won't be able to dodge her rapid fire of attacks.

So it’s not even a downgrade? Then what’s the purpose of the thread? Removing a bit of the description or spite?

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Snip

If you agree her shots are faster anyway, what was the point.

 

[KingTempest]

Revising the justification. It's a downgrade because the justification hyped up the attack speed too much making it seem like a massive increase, but it's agreed that they're faster

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Revising the justification. It's a downgrade because the justification hyped up the attack speed too much making it seem like a massive increase, but it's agreed that they're faster

So nothing changes at all other than removing the blitz misunderstanding. Fine by me.

Just try not to accuse people of pulling things out of their ass just because you’re upset. Getting mad at me over the other thread is quite childish.

 

[KingTempest]

My bad for the hostility, definitely was getting heated, in that I apologize

 

[TheRustyOne]

Do we have enough agreements on this?

higher attack speed (Her bullets can outpace 45% Izuku. Can increase the size of her Rifle arm, enhancing the speed of her bullets even further)

And Removing Rifle Arm durability.

I can make the changes if so.

 

[PrinceofPein]

agreed

 

[KingTempest]

Do we have enough agreements on this?

higher attack speed (Her bullets can outpace 45% Izuku. Can increase the size of her Rifle arm, enhancing the speed of her bullets even further)

And Removing Rifle Arm durability.

I can make the changes if so.

I think we need staff to accept it.

I don't count cause I'm the OP and you're retired (can retired staff validate threads?)

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Agree.

 

[mitsuki]

Lady Nagant has this as a justification for her bullets

He did not have difficulty dodging because of the speed.
He caught one in his bare hand with no issues. Deflected one behind him, dodged one point blank, dodged another, and dodged another.
She even noted that he blocked 2 of her shots.

The only thing hinting that it was speed wise was this statement at the bottom, but it's common sense that if you move closer, it'll be harder to dodge and you'll need better reactions for closer objects. That's not a feat for her.

I don't have a huge issue with the "higher attack speed", but the justification is exaggerating it. The

is good enough.

Agreed

 

[Elixirr]

It has taken literal days of nonstop running and fighting with no sleep and minimal food for Deku to get to a point that being tired takes a toll on him.

Was this actually mentioned in the recent chapters? I can't recall, mind sending me the scans?

 

[Dalesean027]

Was this actually mentioned in the recent chapters? I can't recall, mind sending me the scans?

Not to sound rude but like have you read any of like the recent chapters the last like 10 maybe this has literally been a pretty big plot point that izuku has been operating with minimal to no rest and sustenance for days doing Hero work and fighting before he's started getting tired