Konosuba and its scaling

[QuasiYuri]

I know it was already discussed before, but the previous thread didn't reach a conclusion, so here we go again.

I'll only do the main characters of the scaling, if there's someone I didn't mentionned it's either that their justification is linked to one of theses characters or that I forgot about them.

Explosio
The main reason for the scaling is that character supposedly can tank or are comparable to Explosion magic (the tier 8 one), canonically the strongest ones in the series.

However this is wrong for nearly every character profiles we have. I'll explain it case by case.

Kazuma
The justification for Kazuma are that he can fight characters able to hold their own against Darkness and to kick Belida's head.

First, Kazuma already fought Darkness and she was easily able to overpower him without any problem, with Kazuma's only way to win was by using his Drain Touch and exploits Darkness' nature (vol 3).

Not to mention that Kazuma isn't a front fighter and instead use strategy and hax, he's canonically stated to be physically weaker than Wizard like Megumin (vol 4).

For Beldia, see below.

Darkness
First, her AP is supposedly comparable to Megumin's explosion; but where does she shows this? While Darkness is indeed pretty strong physically, she never performed a feat that would be equal to Explosion.

For Vanir, see below.

For her durability, the justification is based on the fact that she managed to tank Megumin's explosion in volume 3.

However it doesn't qualify as a feat of sheer durability for 2 reasons:

-First, while she indeed tanked Megumin's explosion, she was in a near-death state after it.

-Secondly, Konosuba separate physical durability from resistance to magic as 2 stats, and Darkness' has these 2 ridiculously high, meaning the attack wasn't just tanked with sheer durability as we treat it here.

Beldia
His justifications are:

-Being strong enough to endure Aqua's attacks, however it's only against Turn Undead and its variations thanks to his armor. I also don't see how does this qualify as an AP feat for him.

-Supposedly being comparable to Sylvia, see below for her.

-Having fought Human Wiz. See below for why it doesn't justify such an AP.

Sylvia
The justification is poorly made to the point of saying that she's from Volume 4 while she appeared in Volume 5.

Also, considering that fights in Konosuba aren't toe-toe and that Kazuma's team usually win by strategy more than anything else, it should be changed.

Wiz
I already explained for Beldia and Sylvia, so the only justification left is that she fought Vanir, which'll be treated in the Vanir part.

It should also be noted that while Wiz has Explosion, she stated herself to never use it in real fight in Megumin's spin-off (vol 1 of it), meaning she shouldn't scale to it for her other attacks as well as her opponents.

Vanir
Again, someone with 3/4 justifications:

-Being one shot by Megumin... So, now being one shot by someone is an AP feat for you? Just no.

-Fought Aqua, which I'll talk about later

-Knocking out Darkness with his laser, which seems fine but still below Explosion and doesn't mean he scale to this tier.

-Turning Wiz's body to atoms, which seems to be hax more than anything else. Also Wiz is scaled to him while he himself is scaled to Wiz, so this doesn't make really sense.

Aqua
It's pretty simple: all of the feats on her page are either via Turn Undead (which is a hax) or by exploiting an opponent weakness (ex: water for Beldia). She didn't really damaged them either.

Conclusion (and possible change)
The current profiles as well as the whole Explosion scaling are just wrong. All of the characters I mentionned as well as everyone who scale to them should have a change to their justification. If people agree with this, the tier for these characters should likely be changed to "At least 9-B" scaling from random monsters, which have a bunch of feats at this tier.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

You should ask the members listed in the Kono Subarashii Sekai ni Shukufuku Wo! verse page to comment here.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Have you done what I suggested?

 

[Jinsye]

Using Darkness's fights in vol. 3 and 4 to argue that Kazuma isnt comparable to Darkness now isn't exactly great considering he's level 30+ now. I feel like it'd be ridiculous to say Kazuma isnt at least comparable to Darkness at a low level who survived explosion.

Also "magic resistance" will only help you so much if you're a 9-B going against an 8-A attack. So saying that she didnt take an at least 8-B or so force is dumb.

Knocking out Darkness should also scale to Vanir's tier because if you shoot a 9-B laser at an 8-A then it's not exactly gonna do much. Vanir also takes recoil from his lasers iirc so it'd scale to his dura.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Have you done what I suggested?

Yes I did.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Using Darkness's fights in vol. 3 and 4 to argue that Kazuma isnt comparable to Darkness now isn't exactly great considering he's level 30+ now. I feel like it'd be ridiculous to say Kazuma isnt at least comparable to Darkness at a low level who survived explosion.
Also "magic resistance" will only help you so much if you're a 9-B going against an 8-A attack. So saying that she didnt take an at least 8-B or so force is dumb.

Knocking out Darkness should also scale to Vanir's tier because if you shoot a 9-B laser at an 8-A then it's not exactly gonna do much. Vanir also takes recoil from his lasers iirc so it'd scale to his dura.

Darkness was level 20 at the time, it isn't that low. Also you talk like if having an higher level means being better than the other, which is already proved to be false by Aqua and her maxed stats.

Not to mention Kazuma's canonically the weakest class while Darkness is canonically the most defensive class and one of the Crusader with the highest endurance.

Her magic resistance is absurdly high and can even resist Aqua's magic, so saying it can't reduce Megumin's explosion doesn't make sense. Not to mention people can survive things beyond their tier (ex: A human can survive a collision with a truck) and that her armor is specifically made by someone from the Crimson Village. It also makes no sense for Kazuma to being able to tank the strongest spell in the verse while Vanir couldn't.


Vanir's lasers also are mainly hax, unless the one he used his the specific Eye Laser that he mentionned to hurt him or a laser which is pure power, it shouldn't be an AP or durability feat.

 

[Jinsye]

I'm not saying that it wouldn't reduce Megumin's explosion's damage... but it's still a 9-B going against an 8-B explosion. It's far easier and more logical to say that Darkness's durability at least took a major portion of the damage than saying her magic resistance reduced a spell's potency by hundred thousands of times

 

[QuasiYuri]

Since her magic resistance even work against Aqua's holy magic or Vanir's possession which never failed before, it wouldn't be illogical to say that it at least reduced it significanly, but she at least tanked a portion of it yeah.

Anyway, even if we count this, the fact that she was in a near-death state even with her durability, magic resistance, and her armor from the Crimson Village (aka the village where everyone think that coolness and destructive power is all that matter), it shouldn't be counted as a durability feat in the same way we don't consider a normal human surviving a truck impact 9-B.

At best it would be an outlier, given how strong the spell is supposed to be in the verse and how others scaling to it wouldn't make sense.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Bump

 

[Ionliosite]

Is there any other intance in which the explosion was tanked aside from Darkness' one?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that Yuri makes some good points in any case.

 

[QuasiYuri]

The Destroyer was able to tank 3 Explosions if I remember correctly, but it doesn't scale to anyone.

I don't think the characters we currently have showed any feat of tanking Explosion, half of the profiles are just scaling to Vanir, the cast, Wiz, or Beldia.

 

[Antvasima]

So how do you suggest that we should solve this problem?

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Honestly this would basically throw the entire way the verse is scaled out the window. One would probably have to suggest a way to replace the current system of scaling before something like this could be considered.

I mean the gist of this is no1 scales to Megumi's AP basically.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Ive bothered muchacho as he spearheaded the last tier revision for konosuba.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Are there any other feats available to scale from, if they are calculated?

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

I'll start with Darkness:

- Your first point is correct, you seem to forget she later tanked it near the capital and wasn't sprawled on the ground like a potato

-It is a magial leveling world, your point debunks itself. A little girl can tank a nuke or hit with such AP despite her body mass and composition purely from stats; a phenomena/effect placed on their being that represents their capabilities in numericals. Aside from raising her physical defence, there is no difference than raising her magical resistance, both run counter to her physical make up.

The rest:

All their scaling can be summed up in levels. They scale from a level 33+ Megumin, although their justifications need to be fixed, purely from scaling they would be comparable or lower like Sylvia and Beldia who both require seasoned veterans or the haxed heroes in the capital to deal with, although in Sylvia's case her defence is high.

Why would you think Wiz not using her [explosion] in a fight means that it is heavily weaker than her other spells? She herself, like everyone else in the series thought that only a lunatic would learn such a one time spell. Also in a fight she did use it in vol 13 to one shot weakened Duke.

The ones that are a problem to scale are Aqua who has static stats and Vanir, are they 9B (something like 400 billion times weaker) or are they 8-A.

 

[QuasiYuri]

-In which volume and chapter did she tanked it?

-It's still kinda separated, even if it's linked as noted when it was mentionned that her class is especially resistant to magic and stuff.

-How scaling from level 33+ Megumin help? If it's from having a comparable or higher level, it's obviously wrong (like I explained before). Also requiring veterans doesn't really scale in term of stats, since they didn't defeated their opponents with raw power but with strategy like I said before.

-I'm saying that Wiz's Explosion is stronger than her other spells, not the opposite.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

-Volume 6

-Not sure why you're mentioning classes. She is a defensive class, whether it's using her skill points to raise her physical defence against physical attacks or use those points to raise her defence against magic, makes no difference.

-It helps since the low 7-C comes from her. Regardless of how much points she uses to enhance her AP, the rest of the verse that reaches or surpasses that level (provided they are combat specialized) would have the same AP or higher, not something in the billions of times weaker. Also the veteran part was for the demon generals tier, Konosuba cast using tricks to defeat them has nothing to do with it.

-I'll wait and see what sort of point you have on this considering Wiz is known for her ice magic, even nicknamed [Ice Witch]. There was freezing AP revision that would null this possibly in the future though.

 

[QuasiYuri]

-I'll check again Vol 6 before answering on the matter of Darkness durability then

-I'm mainly talking about her first key, not her second one. Also surpassing someone's level doesn't mean your stronger than him (Aqua's the main example of this). I don't see how a random attack from an Adventurer who have an higher level should scale to the strongest spell of the verse for example. Not to mention Megumin's Explosion is above the regular Explosion of someone on her level (like how she enhanced Wiz's one with random words when she was young).

-Basically because of Explosion canonically being the strongest spell in term of raw power and also because of Wiz stating it's too powerful and that learning weaker spells would be better (when she says to the young Megumin this, she shows her some ice spell btw).

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

-Okay

-How is Aqua an example? If you mean her level, that was already debunked in the previous CRT. Megumin's explosion is not 'far' above someone of her level, it is just above someone her level due to her spending all her skill points to enhance it, it was only after her level approached the later parts of 30s that she surpassed Wiz. I should also remind you that this point of yours does oppose your previous point of stating Wiz's explosion being far higher than her other magic despite the fact that she is known for her ice magic, implying she's enhanced that.

-I don't think there is any hard evidence that isn't based on assumptions that [Explosion] Magic far outstrips any magic, when in fact it is just one out of the many advanced spells in the series, a higher category; Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced.

If you can provide a quote proving explosion's power(not some fervent quote of Megumin), then there is nothing to discuss and this downgrade can happen.

 

[QuasiYuri]

-Do you have a link for the previous CRT? Also Megumin's one is indeed above, as proved in the spin-off.

-Also I don't see how it oppose the previous point, since Wiz stated herself Explosion as the strongest spell too.

-Megumin's teacher as well as Wiz both said that it's the strongest spell in the volume 1 of her spin-off.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

-Yes here

- I don't remember Wiz being present there or when she said that, but going back to that spinoff quickly I see this;

Overwhelming power that can sweep away anything. The greatest destructive force that was stronger than any other kind of spell. This massive destruction was dealt by only a single mage. A single shot. What kind of spell could that be?

Let the downgrade happen (ᴗ ͜ʖ ᴗ)

 

[Moritzva]

Is it not quite likely that Konosuba characters simply downscale below the 8-B Feat? Darkness can barely survive with her resistances. Her Magic Resistance is high... but so is her durability. They're equatable to each other. I find it more likely that Darkness' Magic Resistance and actual durability split the damage up around evenly, rather than 9-B durability and x100000 Magic Resistance.

And if Darkness scales, the rest scales, as Ed already clarified how their original fights were earlier on in the series, and factoring Kazuma is already quite weak compared to the cast yet still is somewhat comparable.

I disagree with the downgrade.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Muchacho mrm wrote

Overwhelming power that can sweep away anything. The greatest destructive force that was stronger than any other kind of spell. This massive destruction was dealt by only a single mage. A single shot. What kind of spell could that be?

Let the downgrade happen (ᴗ ͜ʖ ᴗ)

Would Darkness' feat considered as an outlier or still as something legit then?

The profiles still need revisions for their justifications anyway.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

A simple adjustment of OP's points would be necessary is all. Mine and a few users points are just disagreements with 9B is all. Which is so far above their current rating, that durability feats that contradict it comes to mind. IIRC volume 5 they all to the shockwave of Megumin's explosion and they weren't coughing up their organs (although i'm not really sure what inverse square law says) Anyways I can't really think of what to scale them to now

 

[Antvasima]

Moritzva seems to make sense.

 

[Elizhaa]

Unless the Darkness' feat is an outlier, I agree with Moritzva and Ed's points hence I am against the downgrade.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. It seems like this will likely not be accepted then.

 

[QuasiYuri]

It should be an outlier yes, as discussed with Muchacho in this thread.

Scaling characters like Kazuma to Explosion is like scaling nearly every character to it, despite Explosion being the strongest spell that even Wiz think too dangerous to use in fight.

Also Moritzva point was already discussed.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Bump

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

@YuriAkuto

The point seems to have been accepted which relates to durability but your points on [Explosion] AP can't be ignored nor debunked at this point.

Pretty sure if this isn't addressed there will be an endless amount of threads on it.

As for accepting it, it wouldn't change much, as it would just scale everyone below Darkness, from low 7-C to 8-B while Darkness herself would be low 7-C for durability. Since with the above quote, [Explosion] is treated as the highest AP. Which would put all their AP to scale below it.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Yeah, I think the greatest problem currently is the reason for each scaling anyway.

 

[Elizhaa]

It should be an outlier yes, as discussed with Muchacho in this thread.

Scaling characters like Kazuma to Explosion is like scaling nearly every character to it, despite Explosion being the strongest spell that even Wiz think too dangerous to use in fight.

Also Moritzva point was already discussed.

I see. If Darkness's feat is valid Outlier and no others feats like it show up, then I don't mind a downgrade. I still disagree with a premise of using her high magic resistance lowering a magic damage in the hundred of thousands as valid reasoning why her current tier and consequently those who powerscaled are wrong.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa

What are the conclusions here?

 

[Elizhaa]

From what I read, it seems like the topic is still being discussed for the scaling. However, it looks like Muchacho mrm's points here could be the basis for what will be accepted.