Klein Moretti vs Gongsun Wan'er

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Wan'er:

Klein:

Speed equal, both are 5-B, SBA otherwise.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

So... he has to deal with a whole lot of passives.

To my understanding, he either cannot make a copy of her (type 4 acausality, and her being from a specific universe being important should make verse equal not a thing here I think) or the clone can use her Will and resistances to act indipendently and just fuse with the original, making his problems worse.

She can make a 500 kilometer area "hers", so summoning locations won't help much.

With her prefferred method of fighting being absorption, summoning more people might end up as a negative thing, especially with her ability to nercomance enemies if she so desires.

She can interact with Domains (and them not having a physical form before ST is a big deal), so she can probably hurt the abstract dudes.


Seems like she has this in the bag, but I don't know him enough to say for sure.

 

[Rocker1189]

Give me a bit, tbh Klein has a lot and even in the novel his battles were confusing as hell.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Aight.

 

[Planck69]

I'm not capable of summoning the energy to go through that monster P&A section so what does he resist?

 

[Rocker1189]

So... he has to deal with a whole lot of passives.

Please list out the passive to make it easier he has a lot of resistances after all (unless you already have in which case, nevermind).

To my understanding, he either cannot make a copy of her (type 4 acausality, and her being from a specific universe being important should make verse equal not a thing here I think) or the clone can use her Will and resistances to act indipendently and just fuse with the original, making his problems worse.

He could attempt to turn her into a puppet, I know she resists but he has several layers of power over the original puppet creation and its not just body puppetry it essentially kills the target as well. He also can just parasite her, without the need of fate manipulation by using one of his worms on her which takes control of everythung

She can make a 500 kilometer area "hers", so summoning locations won't help much.

I am not quite sure what this does for her, but his connection to sefirah castle should protect him from the effects of the shout due to how its fog essentially protects him from outside effects since sefirah castle is cut of from regular time and space, he can also summon himself to sefirah castle to make himself completely cut off from regular time-space and fight from there. She doesnt resist law manip in the key so he is capable of distorting the laws of any of her abilities weakening them or twisting the meaning of the abilities to his advantage he can create errors in the abilities and have benefit him, for example he could make the 500 kilometer area be "his" instead of hers via the error pathway and also an ability he stole from another pathway.

With her prefferred method of fighting being absorption, summoning more people might end up as a negative thing, especially with her ability to nercomance enemies if she so desires.

He is capable of making her forget to use her absorption and other abilities, for a few hours, in fact every thought of hers and anything she wants to do she would forget and he would use them himself. She wont even notice they are gone. On top of that Klein atm is a bit gimped on the wiki he can summon various very powerful people to help him those people have powerful abilities and resistances in their own right, they are not on the wiki though so I cant really use them.

She can interact with Domains (and them not having a physical form before ST is a big deal), so she can probably hurt the abstract dudes.

Honestly I am no expert on how AE works, so you are probably right.

 

[Rocker1189]

I'm not capable of summoning the energy to go through that monster P&A section so what does he resist?

sleep, mind, soul, dream, madness, corruption, empathetic, precog, poison, diesease, fear, law, cold, fate, luck, status effect inducement, info analysis, clairvoyance, illusion creation also has multiple ways to manipule the abilities of others and whatnot. All in all his base resistances are not too many, he has alway been a glass cannon type character who just haxes out of everything.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Her passives are soul crush (a hundred billion at the absolute minimum, and it's downplay), knock out (those who look at her feel a "bang" in their minds and are knocked out. This works on people with, again, hundreds of billions worth of resistance), fear (facing her feels more terrifying than facing certain death), physical pressure, power nullification (works against about two dozen layers, and she can negate stuff like Domains, which are a cultivators understanding of reality to warp its laws and concepts, like a domain of time or a domain of life and death), absorption (of souls, energy and cultivation levels, blood or potentially whole bodies, and "aura of death" which makes undead remain animate), cold (caused the whole world to begin freezing over), and necromancy (summons all undead or stray souls in the realm she is in to obey her).

Those are the major ones.

 

[Planck69]

>He is capable of making her forget to use her absorption and other abilities, for a few hours, in fact every thought of hers and anything she wants to do she would forget and he would use them himself.

Wan'er resists the divine sense of Devas, which means hax resistance that's 1,000,000,000x that of Core Formation characters who apparently have a feat in the millions IIRC. I think this might be enough to resist the memory-hax.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

>He is capable of making her forget to use her absorption and other abilities, for a few hours, in fact every thought of hers and anything she wants to do she would forget and he would use them himself.

Wan'er resists the divine sense of Devas, which means hax resistance that's 1,000,000,000x that of Core Formation characters who apparently have a feat in the millions IIRC. I think this might be enough to resist the memory-hax.

Ten billion was still not at Soul Transformation, and Wan'er is an op as hell Deva, so she should scale at that.

Though, I've yet to find the millions feat for Cores unless I'm forgetting, but regardless it should be far beyond anything he can do.

 

[Rocker1189]

>He is capable of making her forget to use her absorption and other abilities, for a few hours, in fact every thought of hers and anything she wants to do she would forget and he would use them himself.

Wan'er resists the divine sense of Devas, which means hax resistance that's 1,000,000,000x that of Core Formation characters who apparently have a feat in the millions IIRC. I think this might be enough to resist the memory-hax.

His memory hax is conceptual though. I dont see concept resistance on her page ( at least at this level)

 

[Planck69]

@Ricsi-viragosi

Nepuko talked about it once.

 

[Planck69]

His memory hax is conceptual though. I dont see concept resistance on her page ( at least at this level)

He haxxes using the concept of memory? That shouldn't be too much of a problem since there's a Soul Formation cultivator with a Domain of forgetfulness/memory that she should resist IIRC. Though I'll have to check on it.

 

[Rocker1189]

Her passives are soul crush (a hundred billion at the absolute minimum, and it's downplay), knock out (those who look at her feel a "bang" in their minds and are knocked out. This works on people with, again, hundreds of billions worth of resistance), fear (facing her feels more terrifying than facing certain death), physical pressure, power nullification (works against about two dozen layers, and she can negate stuff like Domains, which are a cultivators understanding of reality to warp its laws and concepts, like a domain of time or a domain of life and death), absorption (of souls, energy and cultivation levels, blood or potentially whole bodies, and "aura of death" which makes undead remain animate), cold (caused the whole world to begin freezing over), and necromancy (summons all undead or stray souls in the realm she is in to obey her).

Those are the major ones.

That is.. a lot.

These are all very powerful assuming that they are all at such a ridiculous scale he doesnt really resist any of them tbh(I could be wrong Zara knows more than me here), however he has a few abilities to help, firstly the him she would be fighting would just be an avatar of himself tbh so it would die but it would be meaningless. Not only is he a type 3 acausal, the main him exists in Sefirah castle and I believe he has basically fused with the castle at this point which exists outside of time-space and even independent of the astral, spiritual and material worlds. Also him being alive or dead is absolutely meaningless to him and has no negative effects he just happens to like being alive over being dead (also because being dead doesnt help with talking to people).

Another thing he can do is alter probablity in his favour and against her, making things that should not be possible typically possible which should help in resisting her abilities and hax on top of that his wish ability allows him to grant himself any wish once every few hours.

 

[Rocker1189]

Actually her range means that she is unable to affect him while he can fight her from Sefirah castle.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

He could attempt to turn her into a puppet, I know she resists but he has several layers of power over the original puppet creation and its not just body puppetry it essentially kills the target as well. He also can just parasite her, without the need of fate manipulation by using one of his worms on her which takes control of everything

Daoist Heavenspan attempted to enslave her by using the laws of the world itself but still failed, and only ever had a chance because someone else was absorbing her powers.

I am not quite sure what this does for her, but his connection to sefirah castle should protect him from the effects of the shout due to how its fog essentially protects him from outside effects since sefirah castle is cut of from regular time and space, he can also summon himself to sefirah castle to make himself completely cut off from regular time-space and fight from there. She doesnt resist law manip in the key so he is capable of distorting the laws of any of her abilities weakening them or twisting the meaning of the abilities to his advantage he can create errors in the abilities and have benefit him, for example he could make the 500 kilometer area be "his" instead of hers via the error pathway and also an ability he stole from another pathway.

She doesn't..? She definitly should. I can get the quotes for that, but even Wang Lin in his second key could destroy laws. It should be covered by her Acausality type 4, since it involves ignoring fates and laws set by the world.

He is capable of making her forget to use her absorption and other abilities, for a few hours, in fact every thought of hers and anything she wants to do she would forget and he would use them himself. She wont even notice they are gone. On top of that Klein atm is a bit gimped on the wiki he can summon various very powerful people to help him those people have powerful abilities and resistances in their own right, they are not on the wiki though so I cant really use them.

That's something her Will should definitly cover, since Ghostmother (who she is a hacked off piece of) does the same to make people stare blankly as she kills them, and Bai at Core Formation resisted it through his own will, and Wan'er fought Ghostmother head on.

That is.. a lot.

She nearly soloed the whole Realm the MC is from. She's crazy strong for all but the last book for the series.

Not only is he a type 3 acausal, the main him exists in Sefirah castle and I believe he has basically fused with the castle at this point which exists outside of time-space and even independent of the astral, spiritual and material worlds. Also him being alive or dead is absolutely meaningless to him and has no negative effects he just happens to like being alive over being dead (also because being dead doesnt help with talking to people).

There is the problem of her just absorbing from him and what he summons until she gets back to full power, and just sealing Earth off from outside interference to BFR him.

 

[Nepuko]

Er Gen is a bad match for LotM.

Klein will just...get powernulled to oblivion and die the moment he steps into the same battlefield. Even his resurrection ability will likely get powernulled. That is not even talking about her Divine Sense, a single sweep and she shatters his body and soul, and her attacks are also all conceptual in nature.

He could attempt to turn her into a puppet, I know she resists but he has several layers of power over the original puppet creation and its not just body puppetry it essentially kills the target as well. He also can just parasite her, without the need of fate manipulation by using one of his worms on her which takes control of everythung

She resists his ability. Resisting Body Control and Body puppetry is something resisted since Qi Con. Same for mind and soulhax, which is one of the main point of that ability. He won't succeed in controlling her body, and he won't succeed in muddling her head. A sweep of divine sense and he dies in body and soul. Her attacks are also conceptual as well.

I am not quite sure what this does for her, but his connection to sefirah castle should protect him from the effects of the shout due to how its fog essentially protects him from outside effects since sefirah castle is cut of from regular time and space, he can also summon himself to sefirah castle to make himself completely cut off from regular time-space and fight from there. She doesnt resist law manip in the key so he is capable of distorting the laws of any of her abilities weakening them or twisting the meaning of the abilities to his advantage he can create errors in the abilities and have benefit him, for example he could make the 500 kilometer area be "his" instead of hers via the error pathway and also an ability he stole from another pathway.

His ability to return there will just be stopped and powernulled. And even if he doesn't, she can just possess him or take advantage of his connection to the castle. Cultivators can take advatange of the connections, somewhat like Karma. For example there was a cultivator who was hurt via his avatar because his opponent used the connection between the body and the avatar. This is their field of expertise, if Amon can do it Gongsun can.
She does resist Law Manip in this key. What she can dish out she can resist. Though it seems it was forgotten to be precised in her key.....
She resists Stats Weaken and powernull, dozens and dozens of layers at this point. Most of what Klein can do to her would be for naught.

He is capable of making her forget to use her absorption and other abilities, for a few hours, in fact every thought of hers and anything she wants to do she would forget and he would use them himself. She wont even notice they are gone. On top of that Klein atm is a bit gimped on the wiki he can summon various very powerful people to help him those people have powerful abilities and resistances in their own right, they are not on the wiki though so I cant really use them.

He won't succeed, as she resists all that.

would just be an avatar of himself

Cultivators can hurt the real self via the connection with the avatar. And even aside from that, his ability to get into the Void and all that comes with it will get powernulled by Gongsun.
His Type 3 Acausality only works 4 times, and that if it also doesn't get powernulled.
At this key I'm pretty sure the main him isn't in the Castle, it's just some Worms of Spirit. And cultivators can sever the connection between avatars and stuff like that. Meaning, he'll immediately lose control in Sefirah Castle.

Also him being alive or dead is absolutely meaningless to him and has no negative effects he just happens to like being alive over being dead (also because being dead doesnt help with talking to people).

Where does this come from? I think you're mixing it. The part where he said that was when his body was about to turn into an undead, because he can survive as a Spirit Body. Kinda like Reinette Tinekker. And he prefers having a living body, instead of an undead with a Spirit Body - that is all there is to it. Gongsun can destroy souls and minds, so this doesn't apply here as his Spirit Body will also be destroyed, resulting in him being completely dead.



So yeah, the moment she appears, her spiritual aura will just do the job for her, powernulling him and crushing him. Worse is that she also resists Probability Manip and even Precog (via her cultivation base) at this point - a lot of layers - so Klein's Danger Sensing won't trigger.

Then there's her other passives and resistances XD.

 

[Rocker1189]

phew..well based on what is said above by both people I guess he loses then lol.

She nearly soloed the whole Realm the MC is from.

Well I am glad that someone with abilties like that is actually relevant. Also her page needs some updating based on what you and Nepuko are saying

 

[Nepuko]

Well I am glad that someone with abilties like that is actually relevant.

COUGH COUGH COUGH

Yep, it does. Our apologies for that.......

 

[Rocker1189]

COUGH COUGH COUGH

nvm I guess lmfao.

 

[Nepuko]

Still, it's a surprise. I didn't know you finished LotM as well, Rocker.

 

[Planck69]

phew..well based on what is said above by both people I guess he loses then lol.

Well I am glad that someone with abilties like that is actually relevant. Also her page needs some updating based on what you and Nepuko are saying

Uhm.....

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Yes. There are... 7 levels of power she scales to (Qi Condensation, Foundation Establishment, Core Formation, Nascent Soul, Devas, Demigods and Celestials).

Each is presented in 5 novels, all nearly 2000 chapters, with at least 1000 being dedicated to those above levels.

Qi Condesation alone have 28 default abilities, and 18 resistances. The first, weakest level of cultivation has all of that, including passive power null and Class T Pressure to crush others, and that's before comprehending the laws and concepts of reality is taken into it. Ergenverse is Xianxia taken to its extreme, while somehow remaining relatively consistent across novels.

But its damn hard to accuretely index.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Uhm.....

For the first four books she was pretty important. More of a background threat, but she did nearly kill Bai the most times, tormenting him for months at a time.

 

[Rocker1189]

Still, it's a surprise. I didn't know you finished LotM as well, Rocker.

Oh I did not too long ago, actually one of my favourite novels now, apparently new books from the same universe are coming out soon so I am looking forward to that.

Maybe he would get a super buff in the new books.

 

[Rocker1189]

Yes. There are... 7 levels of power she scales to (Qi Condensation, Foundation Establishment, Core Formation, Nascent Soul, Devas, Demigods and Celestials).

Each is presented in 5 novels, all nearly 2000 chapters, with at least 1000 being dedicated to those above levels.

Qi Condesation alone have 28 default abilities, and 18 resistances. The first, weakest level of cultivation has all of that, including passive power null and Class T Pressure to crush others, and that's before comprehending the laws and concepts of reality is taken into it. Ergenverse is Xianxia taken to its extreme, while somehow remaining relatively consistent across novels.

But its damn hard to accuretely index.

wait as in nearly 2000 chapters each? Or nearly 2000 chapters all together. If it is the latter maybe I would read it lol.

 

[Planck69]

@Ricsi-viragosi

Well yeah, I"m mostly joking. She benefits from the sheer lack of 3rd Step peeps in AWE.

 

[Nepuko]

Oh I did not too long ago, actually one of my favourite novels now, apparently new books from the same universe are coming out soon so I am looking forward to that.

Yep, it's damn good, in my Tier S list. And yeah, it's scheduled for 2022 normally.

wait as in nearly 2000 chapters each? Or nearly 2000 chapters all together. If it is the latter maybe I would read it lol.

The verse is composed of different novels, with a reading order.

First comes Renegade Immortal : 2088 chapters.

Then Pursuit of the Truth : 1481 chapters.

I Shall Seal the Heavens : 1614 + 3 other tales.

A Will Eternal (her novel) : 1314+1 epilogue.

A World Worth Protecting : Ongoing, currently 1200+

Vehemently reccomended to read in that order.


Honestly it seems a lot and it is a lot, but when you're engaged in it it goes by very quickly - sadly. Kinda like how the 1400-ish chapters of LotM went by very very fast.
And obviously if we're doing it, it means it's worth it

 

[Planck69]

wait as in nearly 2000 chapters each? Or nearly 2000 chapters all together. If it is the latter maybe I would read it lol.

It's like 6500 across the board

 

[Rocker1189]

bruh...idk if I can do that how can you even make verse pages for something that big...like gathering all the scans would take forever. I already know a few things are missing from Klein's page but its 1300+ chapters long and its a pain lol.

 

[Planck69]

That there's 200+ profile worthy characters and only like 20 on the wiki (not even some of the big antagonist) should tell you something about Ergen's current state. But it's getting better.

 

[Nepuko]

Aye. Waiting for the comrades to catch up and be spoiler-free so we can finally work on it together.

Then there's the big bad of ISSTH.....kek. That one is a league of its own.


Alright peeps, seems like this thread is settled so I'll go for now. If I'm asked for something in here I'll try to reply later.

Stay safe!

 

[Rocker1189]

Honestly it seems a lot and it is a lot, but when you're engaged in it it goes by very quickly - sadly. Kinda like how the 1400-ish chapters of LotM went by very very fast.
And obviously if we're doing it, it means it's worth it

How is the MC? I cant stand some MCs and it causes me to drop novels lol.

 

[Nepuko]

How is the MC? I cant stand some MCs and it causes me to drop novels lol.

Klein's nice.

As for Er Gen, well there are several MCs, each with their own personality and more or less development. While interconnected, each story has its own themes and path. I don't think I can rlly sum up though, it's best if you find out for yourself ;-). But if I had to try....we have a mature pragmatic but very sentimental one, we have a temperamental and depressed one, we have a con-artist and we have a lovable totally-innocent-and-pure one.

We have Amon types, somewhat Klein types, and Zaratul types characters as well in the novels, be it in some aspects of MCs, side-characters or antagonists.

 

[Planck69]

Klein's nice.

As for Er Gen, well there are several MCs, each with their own personality and more or less development. While interconnected, each story has its own themes and path. I don't think I can rlly sum up though, it's best if you find out for yourself ;-). But if I had to try....we have a very sentimental but pragmatic one, we have a temperamental and depressed one, we have a con-artist and we have a lovable totally innoncent and pure one.

Kek

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

How is the MC? I cant stand some MCs and it causes me to drop novels lol.

Different MCs per novels.

In Renegade Immirtal, Wang Lin starts out pretty bland, but becomes pretty interesting as some ****** up shit happens.

In Pursuit of the Truth, the MC is part of a tribalistic culture of Berserkers who act rather different than cultivators, but you'd need to read a Xianxia to really appreciate the differences. As the name of the novel implies, finding the truth is an important part of his character.

I shall seal The Heavens I've yet to really begin reading at all, but I hear the character is a schemer, and from what I read he is a very money hungry person, somewhat of a gambler, and his preferred way to get money is to scam people or effectively rob them (go up to people fighting to death and sell healing pills to whoever pays you for exemple).

in A Will Eternal, the main character is self-conceited, arrogant, and is both afraid of death but suicidally perfectionist... and the novel is self-aware of that. He is a unique character, and despite the flaws he is very loyal and a relatively good person as long as you don't threaten him, so he is rather charming.


Of the novels I've only finished AWE however, and Ergen characters have character development, so all I've said for the others is probably somewhat different by later stages.

 

[Rocker1189]

Right...cause Klein is actually one of my favourite MCs in fiction, and it has sort of ruined other MCs for me lmfao. But you know what I guess I would give this a run at some point.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Right...cause Klein is actually one of my favourite MCs in fiction, and it has sort of ruined other MCs for me lmfao. But you know what I guess I would give this a run at some point.

I started with A Will Eternal...

I once attempted to read Martial God Asura after.

Never again.

 

[Planck69]

Imagine the guy with the willpower to bring MGA to the wiki...

 

[Rocker1189]

I once attempted to read Martial God Asura after.

Was it bad? or..