Kirby vs Liliana Vess

[Wokistan]

There's not even any real correlation between these two I just needed a character who people will reply for

Kirby vs Liliana Vess

Speed equal

4-A Liliana

SBA otherwise

Provide reasons for your voting


Kirby:2(Dargoo Faust, Eficiente)

Liliana Vess:

Inconclusive:

 

[Wokistan]

Bump

 

[Wokistan]

Bump

 

[Wokistan]

Bump

 

[Wokistan]

Bump

 

[Wokistan]

Bump

 

[Eficiente]

What are Liliana's initials moves?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

What are Liliana's initials moves?

She usually immediately uses death spells, before going into some of her more complicated hax if the battle is drawn out.

That said, I'm going to tenatively give this to Kirby due to better hax. Liliana in character likely won't immediately try and use any of her abilities that can actually harm the guy, which means that she's boned once Kirbs retaliates with the massively superior number of methods it has to kill her.

(Also, Wok, shameless advertising)

 

[Eficiente]

How good is her Resistance to Mind Manipulation? Kirby seems to have decent advantages here.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Not incredibly good. Jace could still mindhax her to death, although it was stated that she could kill him while he did that.

 

[Eficiente]

Voting Kirby via AP, dura, decent resistances and having his more usable hax working.

 

[Wokistan]

Btw, even resisting emrakul's passive mindhax makes her resist to it 5D at least due to how that works, and since she actually got a direct attack as well I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't shit tier 5D. Even then, bad 5D is still better than what Kirby can do with mind manip, though her mind manip is nowhere near as good and only impressive against the undead. Usually opens with death spells and summoning zombies, but I don't remember her summoning against the 4As she's fought excluding finishing off one who was nearly dead. Main reason Jace didn't mindhax her was due to the raven man, but since the raven man may or may not be a figment of her own mind, she still has the resist to that until its proven that he's his own dude.

 

[Wokistan]

However, her stamina as a 4A is awful, since this isn't a tier she's naturally at. She can endure attacks and stuff during the time period, but even using the chain veil to finish off demons and negate their regen exhausts her for a while, and she nearly killed herself drawing upon enough energy to survive against Emrakul.

 

[Eficiente]

From what I can see, Kirby has the AP to one-shot her, is this correct?

 

[Wokistan]

Not sure. Emrakul's 4A is extremely casual, literally by just waking up, and it's stronger than a pantheon of 4As together without them even knowing all that much about its true potential. Liliana got a somewhat more serious attack from the titan and lived, though amping her power that much nearly killed her in and of itself and if not for Emrakul just deciding to seal itself she definitely would have died if it pressed on. She should also be able to power null if its something like a fireball, though she's not going to be power nulling a physical strike. Kirby's AP seems kinda ague, but even if he doesn't 1 shot, she'll overexert herself in not too long. However, Kirby's regen maxes out at the limits of what she can negate, and he doesn't resist death hax or soul destruction. Soul destruction should be in character for her at 4A, since that was pretty much the entire point of her having the chain veil in the first place, allowing her to permakill her demons.

 

[Eficiente]

Liliana's soul destruction opposes a problem to Kirby, but he is still there after death manip. In terms of AP this alone seems far more impressive of what I can see she scales.

 

[Wokistan]

As of now, theros has 14 total God's, though there used to be a 15th at one point, Xenagos. Xenagos was a minor god and was strong enough where Elspeth, an absurdly strong Planeswalker compared to how most are low 6B, needed a special weapon to kill him. 9 other minor Gods are comparable, and 5 higher God's are superior. Emrakul and the rest of the eldrazi are a threat that not even the combined might of the 14 God's and others of theros would be able to hold back, putting her in the same level of threat as phyrexia and Bolas. Notably, those two aren't there for sheer might, not that they lack any, but the eldrazi were considered unstoppable for their power alone. Emrakul is the strongest of the eldrazi as they are known, and all this is with just a shadow of a higher being. Two of those 4A forms were killed through using literally all the Mana in a manager rich plane as well as copious amounts of PIS, and emrakul basically just got annoyed that people didn't like it and sealed itself, not really being beaten. While this is all in regards to emrakul, Emrakul didn't even notice anyone really except liliana at her absolute limit of her power, who actually managed to cause it a bit of harm. For her efforts, she received an actual attack from emrakul, and her survival of that along with the stress the chain veil puts on her body says quite a lot about her dura, even with her being a native healer and all. Also, she outranges.

 

[Wokistan]

Since there's not calced values for that, take that and the descriptions of the MTG 4As like xenagos as you will, but just something to think about.

I'm also not trying to insinuate that Liliana scales to the full extent of Emrakul's full 4A power, as that would make no sense lore wise, but actually meaningfully affecting and surviving something that strong is impressive nontheless.

 

[Wokistan]

Bumo

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I fail to see how Liliana resisting passive mindhax from Emrakul's 3-D shadow lets her resist 5D mindhax.

 

[Wokistan]

The mind is 5D either way. Honestly I'm ready to call it an outlier if Jace gets mindhaxed by anyone but bolas in the future, but since he's a mental prodigy, Liliana has chain veil, and bolas is just amazing at everything, it's not too outlandish yet. Kirby himself also doesn't have mindhax, just a pretty good resistance.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Okay no. Emrakul is mindhaxing people by just being on the plane. Nothing active/conscious is actually going on, especially since it's implied the shadow is merely a limb of Emrakul's true form.

 

[Wokistan]

That doesn't make it's 5D minds influence lesser dimensional out of nowhere, but I've gotta sleep now so I'll discuss this later.

 

[Wokistan]

Sorry for taking so long, I was making a blog of a possible profile I may make in the future.shamelessselfpromo

About the Emrakul 5D thing, Emrakul's 4A and 3D form is just it's shadow from at least 5D space. 5D is used as a lowball. The shadow itself doesn't have any sort of mind that is not the mind of the main 5D entity, making all Emrakul's mental attacks 5D. due to 5D mind being the mind of it's shadow. Just because Emrakul's mere presence is what causes the entire plane sans plainswalkers and those fighting under the army Sorin mustered to be mindhaxxed doesn't make the mindhax lesser dimensional all of a sudden. Jace's resistance feat to it isn't even that bad even if it's passive, since he had to deal with shielding not only himself, but multiple people. His mind also later hosts the mental manifestation of true Emrakul later on, and Emrakul doesn't exactly understand that the lower dimensional beings aren't exactly appreciative of its presence and likewise isn't going to tone down its mental aura. Liliana also gets a resistance feat, since she gets legit attacked by Emrakul when she draws on the chain veil, and has Emrakul try to take control of her undead army from her. 4A Emrakul's other hax shouldn't be 5D in scale as far as I'm aware, but the mindhax portion should be. Either way, Kirby doesn't have mindhax, and Liliana's only good mindhax is defensive or against the undead, so it's not really a factor here.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Either way, Kirby doesn't have mindhax, and Liliana's only good mindhax is defensive or against the undead, so it's not really a factor here.

lol, yeah.

I'm still giving this to Kirbs for better hax. He could even reflect Liliana's death spells back at her, and sadly I don't think she resists Death Manip.

 

[Eficiente]

>Kirby himself also doesn't have mindhax, just a pretty good resistance.

>Either way, Kirby doesn't have mindhax, and Liliana's only good mindhax is defensive or against the undead, so it's not really a factor here.


I meant his in-character empathic/morality hax

 

[Wokistan]

Forgot about that actually, but that's definitely not getting past 5D resist, and assuming Kirby doesn't decide to become a ghost he should be safe from Liliana's.

 

[Eficiente]

I would appreciate if you could incorporate the magnitude of her resistance to her profile.

 

[Wokistan]

It says right there it got resisted from Emrakul. I don't think characters have the dimensionality of their hax listed usually.

 

[Eficiente]

Characters that can resist stuff from Mr. Myx not have 5D resist to his powers. Also what's even the point of not mentioning the quality of the resistance but instead just a name? She is 4-A in this thread and I have no way of being aware of such thing.

 

[Wokistan]

Superman actually does have 5D mindhax resist for that reason, and for a lot of other characters it's been considered an outlier. Considering that the only other people who've tried to mindhax Liliana are Jace, who's also really good at it and failed, at that, and for Jace its Nicol Bolas, I don't want to say this is an outlier unless theres some future showings that aren't nearly as impressive. A ton of characters have hax far stronger than their tier, like Kharn's 1B powernull, a bunch of Masadaverse dudes having 1A hax in base, Homura's 4D mindhax that affected an acausal concept, etc.

 

[Wokistan]

Also, how does Kirby reflecting work? Dargoo posited Kirby reflecting deathhax, which I'm not sure would work depending on the method of doing that.

 

[Eficiente]

Well iirc Matt at one point said something not positive related to that, and was in favor of removing the 4D mindhax resistance of Mewtwo at the time when that was a thing. Everything I know here comes from 2 experts of this verse who apparently disagree on this. Could you ask someone or make a thread to incorporate this?

 

[Wokistan]

He said it wasn't high 1B or 1A, 1B at most. The mewtwo thing was probably an outlier or otherwise inconsistent if he was for removing it, since 40K has all sorts of examples of higher dimensional hax in 3D characters that he accepts because it's been consistently demonstrated. Other examples of characters of this ilk are UKG and SCP 1440.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Mewtwo just isn't resistant to the effects of the Golden Armor

 

[Schnee_One]

Superman has in total, 3 feats related to resisting Mind Hax from someone Higher dimensional, as well as casually stomping parralax the embodiment of fear.

Mewtwo has exactly one feat and nothing comes anywhere close to it.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Just putting out there - this was passive mindhax that even a group of random Thraben soldiers could resist.

 

[Jinsye]

I remember Kink saying that Emrakul really wasn't trying when Jace came along.

 

[Wokistan]

Wouldn't be surprised if Emrakul just didn't notice them tbh. It didn't even really notice the planeswalkers excluding when Liliana actually somewhat hurt it and Jace. That makes no sense either way when beings more resilient to mindhax succumb, like Avacyn, so probably just typical writing inconsistencies.

 

[Wokistan]

Emrakul really wasn't trying against Jace, but it didn't seem to understand that the denizens of innistrad weren't exactly appreciative of its influence, and its mere projection in his mind is described as constantly warping and contorting as Jace tries to make sense of this impossible entity. While he may not resist any decent 5D mindhax, he still would end up with a marginal resistance feat on that level and subsequently total resist to lower ones. If anyone other than Bolas mindhaxes him in the future without any sort of justification, I'd get rid of it as an outlier, but that's literally Liliana's only resistance feat and Bolas is just generally amazing. He's even compared to the entire races of the Eldrazi and Phyrexians by Kruphix.