Kid Ayanokoji vs Kid Mikey (Grace)

[Zefra3011]

"Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc."

Also the speed of that kick isn't astronomically higher than his normal kicks.

 

[Dinozxd]

is reduced by the same multiplier.

Reduced by the same multiplier, not equalized. Mikey's signature kicks are faster than his combat and reaction speed so Mikey's signature kicks are still faster.

Also the speed of that kick isn't astronomically higher than his normal kicks.

Mikey's renowned signature kick is special for its speed and power. Nobody in the verse has been able to dodge it without precognition, while other attacks can be dodged. So that has a special speed separate from combat speed. Right now, its an unquantifiable speed blitz gap above combat speed. Until I sort out a calculation for it and add it to the profiles.

 

[Zefra3011]

yeah if you ignore Hanma and Izana blocking it sure, also not to mention that if we consider that kick that fast Mikey is absolutely dumb since against them he used different attacks while he was aware they can block that kick which as you are saying is at least 2x faster than his normal attacks

 

[Dinozxd]

yeah if you ignore Hanma and Izana blocking it sure

Hanma has Enhanced Senses and Izana has Analytical prediction and they were able to block his kicks thanks to their abilities.

Mikey is absolutely dumb since against them he used different attacks while he was aware they can block that kick which as you are saying is at least 2x faster than his normal attacks

Mikey eventually landed kicks on both of them thanks to his Reactive Power.

 

[Zefra3011]

Hanma has Enhanced Senses and Izana has Analytical prediction and they were able to block his kicks thanks to their abilities.

So? Still it wasn't faster than their reaction otherwise they would be frozen compared to the kick like what happend against Taiju.

Mikey eventually landed kicks on both of them thanks to his Reactive Power.

This is completely irrelevant since this matchup is basically who lands the first hit wins.

if we consider that kick that fast Mikey is absolutely dumb since against them he used different attacks while he was aware they can block that kick which as you are saying is at least 2x faster than his normal attacks

Also you ignored this part which kinda debunks the difference in speed you are trying to present.

 

[Dinozxd]

Still it wasn't faster than their reaction otherwise they would be frozen compared to the kick like what happend against Taiju.

Yes but that means their reaction speed is higher than Taiju. Also, Mikey's kick aganist Taiju is faster than his kick aganist Hanma and maybe even Izana as he literally became invisible during the kick which never happened before.

This is completely irrelevant since this matchup is basically who lands the first hit wins.

You are kinda right but Mikey's hit would land first through speed difference.

Also you ignored this part which kinda debunks the difference in speed you are trying to present.

I don't understand how that debunks anything. Hanma only blocked one signature kick from Mikey which was at the start of the fight thanks to his abnormal reaction time and we didn't see him block any other kick and Izana was much faster than Mikey in their fight so It's normal for Izana to block signature kicks from Mikey.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I think you missed our point with Arnold. Signature Kicks of Mikey counts as Attack Speed (you can see it in his profile too) and Attack Speed doesn't get equalized in speed equalized battles, meaning Mikey's signature kick is still faster than Koji's combat and reaction speed. Even if Koji blocks the kick, the AP difference would either heavily injure or knock him out.

Ayanokouji wins this easily then. Kid Mikey is superhuman on his profile while Kid Ayanokouji should be easily superior to Housen who is subsonic+.

 

[Dinozxd]

Ayanokouji wins this easily then. Kid Mikey is superhuman on his profile while Kid Ayanokouji should be easily superior to Housen who is subsonic+.

Only Mikey's Attack speed is higher than his Combat and reaction speed, not Koji's. You can even check Mikey's profile about that too. His signature kicks counts as Attack Speed.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Hanma has Enhanced Senses and Izana has Analytical prediction and they were able to block his kicks thanks to their abilities.

Ayanokouji has better skills than both and yes, both the abilities.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Only Mikey's Attack speed is higher than his Combat and reaction speed, not Koji's. You can even check Mikey's profile about that too. His signature kicks counts as Attack Speed.

I guess someone messed up in writing his profile, because the reasoning for speeds higher than superhuman are all the feats he performed as his older self. Also, the speeds are written by separation with "|" character, which I guess is a change for his keys. Also, I don't think Kid Mikey has any statements or feats which put him at that level.

 

[Dinozxd]

Ayanokouji has better skills than both and yes, both the abilities.

Koji's Enhanced Sense is just Enhanced Awareness which wouldn't even help in a fight. Koji's analytical prediction vs Izana's analytical prediction is debatable (I personally think Izana's is better).

I guess someone messed up in writing his profile, because the reasoning for speeds higher than superhuman are all the feats he performed as his older self. Also, the speeds are written by separation with "|" character, which I guess is a change for his keys. Also, I don't think Kid Mikey has any statements or feats which put him at that level.

I'm not saying Kid Mikey has Supersonic Attack Speed, I'm saying that he uses his signature kicks as a kid too and his signature kicks count as Attack speed which doesn't get equalized in a speed equalized battle. Kid Mikey's combat and reaction speed might be Superhuman but his Attack Speed is much higher than that.

 

[Dinozxd]

Another thing to add is that Ayanokouji's Pressure Point strikes don't have Dura Neg so he can't just KO Mikey in one hit. He would do more damage than his AP but it still wouldn't be enough to knock him out.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Koji's Enhanced Sense is just Enhanced Awareness

It isn't. The dude should be massively superior to Manabu who was able to anticipate an attack from Ryuuen while having his eyes covered with snow. Just an example that it can help him with combat too.

Koji's analytical prediction vs Izana's analytical prediction is debatable (I personally think Izana's is better).

Ayanokouji's analytical prediction is massively better. As a reader of both the series, I am saying that because Ayanokouji has never been hit in his entire life (edit: replace "entire life" with "current key debut"). Reading moves? Ayanokouji has been able to predict them (Y1V1 in his confrontation with Manabu, Manabu being able to predict an attack while his eyes covered with snow, in anime with literally the whole Ryuuen gang, In Tsukishiro vs Shiba fight where he basically avoided all of their attacks). And yeah, Izana doesn't have 10+ year of fighting experience with 10+ hours of daily training while they both are superhumans, Izana has only a single narrative-attached feat while Ayanokouji's analytical prediction has been shown and proved a lot of times.

I'm not saying Kid Mikey has Supersonic Attack Speed, I'm saying that he uses his signature kicks as a kid too and his signature kicks count as Attack speed which doesn't get equalized in a speed equalized battle. Kid Mikey's combat and reaction speed might be Superhuman but his Attack Speed is much higher than that.

But it isn't like Kid Mikey would have the same speed as his elder self. Kid Mikey's attacks should be superhuman. It isn't mentioned for his Kid Key that his attack speed is supersonic.

Also, Ayanokouji has subsonic+ speed only because of Housen, and him, even as kid, should be massively superior to Housen.

He said this for the literal white room duo (who both should skillstomp the verse through their statements alone):

He ranked Ichika at a 20 and him at 100 after a confrontation with her. Even if you were to say that Ichika has the same attack speed as Housen (which is a mid thought because Ichika is superior to Housen), even then, Kid Ayanokouji alone should have 224.9*100/20 = 1124.5 m/s which is supersonic+. But not this much, I would say let them have around equal speeds...

 

[RoggerReggor]

Another thing to add is that Ayanokouji's Pressure Point strikes don't have Dura Neg so he can't just KO Mikey in one hit. He would do more damage than his AP but it still wouldn't be enough to knock him out.

When Ayanokouji does that, Mikey would feel pain, because pressure points is not an attack to the durability but to the physical points regarding pain tolerance of a person, which I assume would be of a normal human for Kid Mikey. Ayanokouji would use his much higher physical strength to overpower Mikey and pin him down to the ground like when he did with Ryuuen and attack him on the chin or on the nose or strangle Kid Mikey to death. (Just my imagination of how the fight would go.)

Also, this isn't the same fight like Ryuuen where Ayanokouji wanted to experience stuff like fear and he doesn't have any second objective, so he would try to end the fight in a much shorter time.

 

[Zefra3011]

Yes but that means their reaction speed is higher than Taiju.

they do

Also, Mikey's kick aganist Taiju is faster than his kick aganist Hanma and maybe even Izana as he literally became invisible during the kick which never happened before.

Nah, no one was surprised the kick was fast they were suprised Taiju fell down in no time in fact no one mentioned Mikey disappearing but only Taiju, when Mikey kicked Hanma they mentioned the fact it was crazy someone could block it, it's normal for that kick to be fast and they know it from the start, there isn't any difference between Taiju kick and the others even because it wouldn't make sense at all that he doesn't use his fastes weapon against Izana, Taiju kick just has an higher distance moved that's why is the one that has been calced, also because with that logic that kick was even faster than the one he did in DI against hanma and we know DI is at least a 2x speed amp.

You are kinda right but Mikey's hit would land first through speed difference.

I don't understand how that debunks anything. Hanma only blocked one signature kick from Mikey which was at the start of the fight thanks to his abnormal reaction time and we didn't see him block any other kick and Izana was much faster than Mikey in their fight so It's normal for Izana to block signature kicks from Mikey.

you litterally said "Hanma could block his signature kick but couldn't block other kicks" which yeah proves his kicks are around the same speed, Izana point is irrelevant

Another thing to add is that Ayanokouji's Pressure Point strikes don't have Dura Neg so he can't just KO Mikey in one hit. He would do more damage than his AP but it still wouldn't be enough to knock him out.

Is mentioned he couldn't do anything physically against the guys so he had to use pressure points.

 

[Dinozxd]

The dude should be massively superior to Manabu

Abilities don't work like that. You don't upscale from someone else's ability.

Manabu being able to predict an attack while his eyes covered

Same thing goes to this.

In Tsukishiro vs Shiba fight where he basically avoided all of their attacks)

Tsukishiro said this about Koji dodging their hits:


So Koji dodging their hits is about his reaction time, not analytical prediction

But it isn't like Kid Mikey would have the same speed as his elder self. Kid Mikey's attacks should be superhuman. It isn't mentioned for his Kid Key that his attack speed is supersonic.

He doesn't have the same speed but his Attack speed is faster than his Combat and Reaction speed as a kid as well.

He ranked Ichika at a 20 and him at 100 after a confrontation with her. Even if you were to say that Ichika has the same attack speed as Housen (which is a mid thought because Ichika is superior to Housen), even then, Kid Ayanokouji alone should have 224.9*100/20 = 1124.5 m/s which is supersonic+. But not this much, I would say let them have around equal speeds...

This multiplier isn't acceped as I know so no. Even if it was, no COTE character's Attack Speed is higher than their Combat or Reaction speed as something like that isn't implified

When Ayanokouji does that, Mikey would feel pain, because pressure points is not an attack to the durability but to the physical points regarding pain tolerance of a person, which I assume would be of a normal human for Kid Mikey. Ayanokouji would use his much higher physical strength to overpower Mikey and pin him down to the ground like when he did with Ryuuen and attack him on the chin or on the nose or strangle Kid Mikey to death. (Just my imagination of how the fight would go.)

Also, this isn't the same fight like Ryuuen where Ayanokouji wanted to experience stuff like fear and he doesn't have any second objective, so he would try to end the fight in a much shorter time.

He would feel pain but it wouldn't be enough to knock Mikey out especially when Koji couldn't even knock Albert out in one hit using pressure points.

 

[Dinozxd]

Nah, no one was surprised the kick was fast they were suprised Taiju fell down in no time in fact no one mentioned Mikey disappearing but only Taiju,

They couldn't see Mikey moving, Takemichi just imagined what happened and visualized it in his head. So both Mikey and Taiju became invisible there.

it wouldn't make sense at all that he doesn't use his fastes weapon against Izana,

Mikey wasn't at his strongest aganist Izana because of Emma's death. That is also mentioned on Izana's profile.

also because with that logic that kick was even faster than the one he did in DI against hanma and we know DI is at least a 2x speed amp.

Mikey's kick aganist Hanma being Subsonic is an outlier imo but we have to make a CRT about that first.

you litterally said "Hanma could block his signature kick but couldn't block other kicks" which yeah proves his kicks are around the same speed, Izana point is irrelevant

Nah I said that to show his Reactive Power. We see Mikey landing Signature Kicks on Hanma after Hanma blocks the first kick in the anime version. Izana point is indeed irrelevant, Izana was faster than Mikey in that fight.

 

[Zefra3011]

They couldn't see Mikey moving, Takemichi just imagined what happened and visualized it in his head. So both Mikey and Taiju became invisible there.

my point was that it wasnt' faster than the other kicks since if that one would be astronomically faster they would have mentioned it

Mikey wasn't at his strongest aganist Izana because of Emma's death. That is also mentioned on Izana's profile.

He was fighting at his 100% tho and he had all the intention to win as stated by Draken who fought on his side since they were kid

Nah I said that to show his Reactive Power. We see Mikey landing Signature Kicks on Hanma after Hanma blocks the first kick in the anime version.

Maybe because they have similar speeds?? Is just a matter that you can't block every attack from your opponent if the speed is similar

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Isn’t this match over?

 

[Dinozxd]

my point was that it wasnt' faster than the other kicks since if that one would be astronomically faster they would have mentioned it

It's heavily implified that the kick aganist taiju was his fastest kick he performed at his base.

He was fighting at his 100% tho and he had all the intention to win as stated by Draken who fought on his side since they were kid

Yeah but Izana's profile says otherwise. That statement can also be interpreted differently.

Maybe because they have similar speeds?? Is just a matter that you can't block every attack from your opponent if the speed is similar

You would block most kicks from your opponent if you are relative to them. Hanma could be relative to Mikey at the start of the fight but Mikey quickly gets faster than him as the fight goes on.

 

[Dinozxd]

Can we just add this victory to Mikey's profile if you guys don't have any more arguments?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The match has already ended. Feel free to add it to the profiles. I have no idea why the same arguments are being rehashed even after they were addressed.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Abilities don't work like that. You don't upscale from someone else's ability.

Yeah, but this isn't a verse like TR where people are not trained and they have their strengths only because they are "superhumans", the characters in this verse are trained for it.

Ideally, it would be good to assume that the same ability wouldn't be for Manabu and Ayanokouji, but let's not forget that Ayanokouji is much, much skilled than Manabu, so he will have an enhanced senses ability like Manabu as well. Also, while Ayanokouji doesn't have a live feat of using it in battle as he has never got a chance to do so, him being able to sense Karuizawa, Sakura, Kamuro and Sato when they were trying to conceal their presence without looking at them shows that he has the same ability.

Tsukishiro said this about Koji dodging their hits:


So Koji dodging their hits is about his reaction time, not analytical prediction

Ayanokouji said it himself that he was fighting through his instincts:

And instincts here can suggest analytical prediction, but suggestion of higher reaction accompanied by prediction should be considered here, instincts don't suggest reaction time alone. Also, Tsukishiro can't know what's in Ayanokouji's mind. Leave it here.

He doesn't have the same speed but his Attack speed is faster than his Combat and Reaction speed as a kid as well.

What are you trying to imply here? The same should apply to Ayanokouji as well. Whatever happens, Mikey wouldn't be able to match Ayanokouji's attack speed if your attack speed not being affected claim is correct. If Ayanokouji attacks Mikey, then he would basically repeatedly attack him on his pressure points like he did to the professional fighters in his childhood.

This multiplier isn't acceped as I know so no. Even if it was, no COTE character's Attack Speed is higher than their Combat or Reaction speed as something like that isn't implified

Yep, I am just trying to imply that it's not like subsonic+ is the only attack speed Kid Ayanokouji will be able to reach, his attack speed would be massively higher than that.

He would feel pain but it wouldn't be enough to knock Mikey out especially when Koji couldn't even knock Albert out in one hit using pressure points.

I said that, he would repeatedly attack Mikey. Whatever happens, Mikey wouldn't be able to match Ayanokouji's at least subsonic+ attack speed as he is only superhuman. Let's be real here, even if a superhuman character like Kid Mikey were to have his attack speed amplified by 5 times, he still would be able to reach 34.3*5 = 171.5 m/s (and that's when we take it as subsonic/high-end superhuman), which Ayanokouji outclasses easily. So, if attack speed not being affected claim is correct, there's one more reason for Ayanokouji to win.

 

[Zefra3011]

It's heavily implified that the kick aganist taiju was his fastest kick he performed at his base.

If you want to reduce Mikey IQ we can go this way sure, jokes aside, no, it's not

Yeah but Izana's profile says otherwise. That statement can also be interpreted differently.

I don't think a CTR has been made for that, Draken said "Mikey is using all his strenght" and after said "that alone can tell how strong Izana is" which doesn't make sense if Mikey wasn't full power

You would block most kicks from your opponent if you are relative to them. Hanma could be relative to Mikey at the start of the fight but Mikey quickly gets faster than him as the fight goes on.

what? Hell nah

 

[RoggerReggor]

The match has already ended. Feel free to add it to the profiles. I have no idea why the same arguments are being rehashed even after they were addressed.

Sorry for the delay but I am not trying to go over the same arguments here, but trying to have a deeper discussion of how the characters will counter each other. (Damn, the thread reached a second page lol.)

 

[Zefra3011]

(Damn, the thread reached a second page lol.)

(TR is involved)

Edit: Anyway I said everything I had to say I won't reply much from now, count me for Ayano

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Sorry for the delay but I am not trying to go over the same arguments here, but trying to have a deeper discussion of how the characters will counter each other. (Damn, the thread reached a second page lol.)

Theres not really much discussion to be had. The relevant points you made have been said before in a more concise way and addressed thoroughly.

Is Ayanokoji’s precognition as good as Takemichy’s?

Does Ayan have any special attack speed that is way faster than his regular attacks?

If none of these questions were answered. What new thing couldve possibly been said aside expanding on points that don’t help his situation or points that have already been said in a more concise way?

If the argument you made were indeed new and counters the opposition. Then you most likely need a new thread because this thread is way beyond grace unless the OP is willing to break a vsthread rule which isn’t a huge offense I think but certainly an annoying one.

 

[Dinozxd]

Karuizawa, Sakura, Kamuro and Sato when they were trying to conceal their presence without looking at them shows that he has the same ability.

This is Enhanced Awareness too.

And instincts here can suggest analytical prediction, but suggestion of higher reaction accompanied by prediction should be considered here, instincts don't suggest reaction time alone. Also, Tsukishiro can't know what's in Ayanokouji's mind. Leave it here.

Don't think "instincts" means analytical prediction at all. You can see that Koji just dodges and blocks Shiba and Tsuki's hits and nothing more.

The same should apply to Ayanokouji as well.

Nothing suggests that Koji has higher Attack speed than his Combat and Reaction speed.

 

[DeltaStriker22]

I've updated the results on the profiles.

 

[Dinozxd]

I've updated the results on the profiles.

@Tohru.idk this thread can be closed then.

 

[RoggerReggor]

If the argument you made were indeed new and counters the opposition. Then you most likely need a new thread because this thread is way beyond grace unless the OP is willing to break a vsthread rule which isn’t a huge offense I think but certainly an annoying one.

If that's a rule break, then I think stopping here would be great.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I’m sure people have done it before and not gotten into trouble. It’s one of those little rules people break all the time due to lack of strict enforcement on them. It’s all up to the OP tho. We can always continue debating for fun.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Signature kick or not, Ayanokouji will still have a chance. This fight should be very close. Against Ibuki, Ayanokouji could analytically predict and dodge all of her round kicks, which are very much similar to Mikey's signature kicks. In fact, Mikey is a much easier opponent than Ibuki as he has never shown an ability to repeatedly kick his opponents on the same level as Ibuki (unsure about the final arc till it's animated). Takemichi said this:

Mikey takes a while between his two kicks. A person like Ayanokouji, when determine to win, can pull off crazy stuff as a kid. Not to mention that Ayanokouji is not only aware about lethal attacks, but non-lethal attacks as well. He was able to avoid orange juice flying at him in the novel:

His white room training should make this a skill-stomp already. Not only is he trained for like more than 10 hours a day for 10 years everyday, but also he had level 10 training at the age of below 10, a level normal human should not even think of reaching in their lifetime.

Against Albert, he was able to adapt to the fact that his attacks weren't being effective due to Albert's crazy endurance, so Ayanokouji literally hit his solar plexus and took him down in a few hit. He mentioned taking down Shiba in a single hit and Tsukishiro in a matter of blows. Ayanokouji, with his immense knowledge and much higher battle IQ than Mikey, might even pull it off.

Also, I didn't that this is Kid Mikey and Kid Ayanokouji and Ayanokouji here would have higher stamina than Mikey, so, my own belief is that Ayanokouji would pull it off.

Yes, him being able to avoid all attacks is a narrative by Ryuuen, but so far, it hasn't been proven false. Even when being drained of stamina, Ayanokouji avoided all of Nanase's attacks, and after that, all of Tsukishiro and Shiba's attacks. Even if Mikey's dark impulse awakens and he is determined to kill Ayanokouji, we can easily say that Ayanokouji's motivation to kill Mikey should be much higher (as he should be ordered to kill Mikey, and this Ayanokouji has orders above everything). Ayanokouji has crazy adaptability which allows him to absorb enemy techniques and modify them to a better extent, so, if we see this, Ayanokouji should be able to do a roundhouse kick better than Mikey if he sees him perform one.

AP: Mikey
Speed: Equalized
Battle Intelligence: Ayanokouji
Martial Arts & Skills: Ayanokouji

I believe Ayanokouji would hit Mikey in his vital organs and win this fight very easily. Switching my vote to Ayanokouji until someone convinces me that this wouldn't happen.

Thank you for correcting me

I'm changing my vote to Ayanokoji FRA based on Reggor reasons (NVM its already over my bad)

 

[GoldenBooster445]

@Tohru.idk this thread can be closed then.

Called a thread mod, let's see.