Kefla vs Vegito

[Quantu]

Vegetable FRA

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I don't see how using Super Saiyan is unfair. Base Kefla isn't even Super Saiyan Blue Goku level. Somehow, I don't think Goku is stronger than his fusion counterpart just one arc later. He'd literally have to be hundreds to thousands of times stronger for Base Kefla to stand a chance. Honestly, I think that through power scaling alone, Vegito should easily be Low-2-C, which also means I think the only way this is fair for Kefla is by letting her use SSJB2. Even then, Kefla would have to be hundreds of times stronger than Blue Goku to beat Vegito. So highballed SSJB2 Kefla beats lowballed-midballed Vegito Blue. Anything less than a higball, it's in favor of Vegito, and even extremely highballed Base Kefla gets stomped by an extremly lowballed Vegito Blue.

In summary, inconclusive if you let Kefla use SSJB2 with perhaps a slight edge to Vegito Blue, and massive stomp for Vegito Blue if Kefla's only using Base.

 

[ByAsura]

Goku is a lot stronger in this Arc, his Super Saiyan God form is superior to Hit, who is even stronger than when he equaled Blue Goku after slight time skip from the Black Arc. So Base Kefla > ToP SSGod> ToP Hit (Before he had strengthened himself) > Post Future Trunks arc SSB.

And that isn't including that Goku very very likely got stronger based on what he said about training with Vegeta after the Future Trunks arc. It also isn't including that Goku powered up further, so this is a low ball.

I don't know who wins, i don't really care (I actually think Vegito takes this), my point is that Base Kefla is being downplayed.

@Goku Sparkle

The fact that she > SSG Goku disproves the whole notion of her being hundreds of thousands of times weaker than Vegito, especially since SSGoku > Future Trunks Arc Blue Goku as established.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Goku is a lot stronger in this Arc, his Super Saiyan God form is superior to Hit, who is even stronger than when he equaled Blue Goku after slight time skip from the Black Arc. So Base Kefla > ToP SSGod> ToP Hit (Before he had strengthened himself) > Post Future Trunks arc SSB.
And that isn't including that Goku very very likely got stronger based on what he said about training with Vegeta after the Future Trunks arc. It also isn't including that Goku powered up further, so this is a low ball.

I don't know who wins, i don't really care (I actually think Vegito takes this), my point is that Base Kefla is being downplayed.

@Goku Sparkle

The fact that she > SSG Goku disproves the whole notion of her being hundreds of thousands of times weaker than Vegito, especially since SSGoku > Future Trunks Arc Blue Goku as established.

I don't think that fight is concrete proof his SSJG is stronger than Hit. I think it was just his way of fighting combined with the fact that he had backup. And I said hundreds-thousands of times weaker. And that was just one fight, so even if you didn't take what I said into account, it could be an outlier or for plot convenience.

 

[ByAsura]

It would be, Goku fought exactly on par with Dyspo without light bullet, but Hit was still losing when Dyspo didn't use it, until he adapted. Even if it was a combination thing (which it wasn't because Goku fought Dyspo alone), he'd still have to be much stronger.

It's not an outlier, it's contradicted by literally nothing, it also makes sense because Post Future Trunks arc Goku easily surpassed Kaioken x10 Goku in the U6 v 7 arc .

 

[TheDarkSide857]

Link to my thread: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1540191#8

 

[ByAsura]

I didn't say he wasn't more powerful than UUS SSG Goku, it's clear that he is. I was saying Kefla is being downplayed a lot.

Anyway, i'm voting for Vegito. Zamasu using a fraction of his power was superior to SSB level fighters of The Future Trunks arc by a large margain, and Vegito was stronger than that Zamasu.

 

[Peter1129]

Vegito Blue should take this against Base Kefla. Since Vegito Blueshould be stronger than Pre-Jiren SSBKKx20 Goku while Base Kefla should be weaker than Pre-Jiren SSBKKx20 Goku. Although I think it would be a bit better if this was SS Berserk 1 Kefla vs Future Trunks Saga Vegito. Though hypothetically with SSBKK up to x10 Vegito should be stronger than SS1 Kefla and possibly even near the first UI.

Also just to clarify Pre-Jiren SSG was never stronger than ToP Pre-adaptation Hit. Goku only landed one lucky shot against Base Dyspo in SSG before getting knocked around the stage by Base Dyspo.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I'll also say Vegito FRA.

I'll also have add this: Vegito is way more experienced and skilled than Kefla due to having the memories of Goku and Vegeta and ultilizing both their methods to be more efficient.

 

[ByAsura]

@Peter

No, you are wrong. Also he could still quite easily withstand hits from him. He also keeps up with him here until he used lightbullet. You didn't even mention that he kept getting blitzed because Dyspo kept using light bullet, which stomped Hit, and Champa couldn't see it.

Goku very very visibly reacts to Dyspo not using light bullet.

Luck shot is wrong, since he totally intercepted him, and visibly hurt him as well as catching his punch.

 

[Peter1129]

Later on Dyspo managed to punch him right when he was attacking him and when he tried to use Instant Transmission. He had to resort to timing where he will attack from to actually hit him. So I'm pretty sure he wasn't keeping up with him in that video that was more like Dyspo knocking him around like he did against Golden Frieza after entering Super Maximum Light Speed Mode.

Also Vegito already has 7 votes this match is now in grace period.

 

[ByAsura]

That was his light bullet. Dyspo without lightbullet was still superior to Hit, and blitzed him and Goku with it, as well as champa.

 

[Huesito88]

Well grace period can start

 

[TheDarkSide857]

• Rubs hands together

You can all change your votes to Kefla now after this.

Please note: there are three deciding factors in a fight. Attack Potency, Speed, and Hax. We'll use composites, but let's analyze different outcomes.

Attack Potency
We all know the tier and attack potency/durability of a character is the most important deciding factor in a fight. So, who takes this? Let's compare the feats.

Vegito

• Solar System level in the Buu Saga
  • Effortlessly toyed with and dominated Super Buu after he absorbed Goha as a Super Saiyan. Super Buu is stronger than Innocent Buu who made a complete joke out of Majin Vegeta and Goha.
• Universe level in the "Future" Trunks Saga
  • As a Super Saiyan Blue, he matched and ultimately overpowered Fusion Zamasu, who was able to effortlessly fend off the combined might of Super Saiyan Blue Goku, Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta and Super Trunks. Super Saiyan Blue is 50x stronger than Super Saiyan God who fought on par with the God of Destruction Beerus.

Let's go to Kefla and see if she can beat these.

Kefla

• Universe level
  • Sent Universe Survival Saga Super Saiyan God Goku [who was capable of contending with Dyspo] flying with only a single punch. Universe Survival Saga includes episodes 114-116 and in those episodes Goku was ten times as strong as he was in episode 66. Kefla was noted to contain the combined total power of Caulifla and Kale, multiplied by "tens of times," as mentioned by Vados.
• Universe level
  • As a Super Saiya, she forced a Super Saiyan Blue Goku who had broken his limits, to to use the Kaio-ke, and defeated him with a surprise attack to the head. Later, this form was described by Whis as acting as a catalyst similar to the SSJB Kaio-ken x20 Spirit Bomb, which had served as the original basis for Goku's awakening of Ultra Instinct.
• Universe level+
  • When fighting vs Ultra Instinct Goku, a confident Super Saiyan 2 Kefla stated she could "blow away an entire universe in one shot", and Piccolo commented that her power had surpassed the level that Goku had previously reached when fighting Jire. At her absolute maximum strength, it was stated that not even a more adept UI Goku would have been capable of surviving one of her blasts, although he was able to effortlessly dodge each of her attacks.

But due to the rule "This is 3-A Kefla (base, no Ssj or Ssj2)" both SSJ and SSJ2 feats are taken out of the equation.

But do you wanna know who takes it in the 3-A fight? Kefla. Why?

Remember, her easy stomp of Super Saiyan God Goku was before his second awakening of Ultra Instinct. Meaning that he had already broken his limits once and was therefore much stronger than he was in episode 66 where he fought the God of Destruction Beerus when Beerus was using 70% of his full power. And Beerus is Low 2-C. Meaning that she could possibly beat Beerus, and furthermore, Vegito, since he fought on par with Fusion Zamasu when Fusion Zamasu was 3-A. Therefore weaker than Beerus's full power. Remember: Full Power Beerus > 3-A Fusion Zamasu.

Speed
Finally, the point most people love to bring up that makes Sonic win in Mario vs Sonic. But today it is used for something else.

Vegito

• At least FTL+ in the Buu Saga
  • Casually blitzed Super Buu, who is faster than both Super Saiyan Gotenks and his Kid Buu self. Super Buu also later blitzed Ultimate Gohan with Gotenks absorbed, and became even faster with Gohan absorbed.
• Massively FTL+ in the "Future" Trunks Saga
  • Fusion Zamasu, who casually outpaced Goku and Vegeta at once, had great difficulty keeping up with Vegito.

Now, Kefla.

Kefla

• Massively FTL+
  • Blitzed Universe Survival Saga Super Saiyan God Goku, who was nearly as fast as Dyspo, who was stated to move faster than light and increased his speed by thousands of times.
• Massively FTL+
  • As a Super Saiyan, far faster than before. Able to keep up with SSJB Kaio-ken Goku, who is faster than normal SSJB, who as I said before reacted to Dyspo.
• Massively FTL+
  • Far faster than before, although she was not nearly as fast as Ultra Instinct Goku. Ultra Instinct Goku was able to react to Jiren, who has been stated by an official source to be stronger than Infinite Zamasu.

So, with this, we can see that, in terms of speeds, Kefla > Vegito.

Hax
One of the most important things in a debate. Who has more hax?

Vegito:

Powers and Abilities: Master Martial Artist, Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Ki Manipulation (Can be used defensively and offensively, to strengthen his skin or to fire ki blasts, which can home in on targets, and form defensive barriers that can render Absorption ineffective), Ki Sensing (Can locate others by reading their ki), Enhanced Senses (Saiyans have exceptional senses, allowing Vegito to locate small, distant objects by tracking their smell, see clearly over long distances, and track the movements of others even in pitch black conditions by feeling vibrations in the air), Flight, Reactive Power Level (As a Saiyan, Vegito grows stronger every time he fights and can become stronger in the midst of combat, vastly increasing in strength whenever he is mortally injured), Rage Power, Afterimage Creation, Power Mimicry (Like Goku, Vegito should be able to easily replicate other Ki-based techniques after seeing them once), Light Manipulation (Can create flashes of light to blind opponents), Healing, Telepathy (Can telepathically communicate with others and read minds), Telekinesis (He can use this to cause opponents to suddenly burst apart from the inside with an explosion), Teleportation, Self-Destruction, possibly Portal Creation (Characters stronger than or equal to Super Buu and Gotenks should be able to perform the Vice Shout through sheer power), Statistics Amplification (Should be capable of using Kaio-ken to greatly enhance his capabilities by potentially up to twenty times), Transformation (Can transform into a Super Saiyan, increasing his capabilities drastically), Resistance to Electricity Manipulation, Mind Control (Should possess a will similar to Vegeta's, who was capable of overpowering Babidi's hold on his mind), and Transmutation (Even after Buu turned him into a jawbreaker, Vegito was capable of fighting and overpowering him) | All previous abilities, his barriers can keep out poisons, Energy / Ki Absorption as a Super Saiyan Blue, Precognition (By predicting Hit's movements by analyzing his style, Goku was able to react to his attacks even when he stopped time, and Vegito should be able to do the same), Sealing with the Mafuba, cannot be sensed by beings less than a God as a Super Saiyan Blue, Resistance to Time Stop (Goku was capable of resisting Hit's attempts to stop him in time as a Super Saiyan Blue with Kaio-ken x10, and Vegito should have similar resistance), Regenerationn(Mid-Low)

Kefla:

Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Martial Arts Mastery, Ki Manipulation, Afterimage Creation, Energy Sensing, Transformation, Danmaku, Rage Power, Berserk Mode, and Reactive Power Level, Possibly Portal Creation (Any character equal to or stronger than Buu Saga top tiers can perform the Vice Shout with sheer power)

So, seems Vegito has the most widespread hax.

And what about experience? Well...

Vegito:

Intelligence: With a combination of Vegeta's cunning and Goku's prodigal skill, Vegito is an extremely intelligent individual when it comes to combat, with skill that is matched only by the greatest of opponents. He should possess Goku's mastery of ki and understanding of the Super Saiyan transformations and their costs and his ability to effortlessly replicate other ki-based techniques, along with Vegeta's cunning and skill at reading his opponents' movements. He feigned arrogance in his fight with Super Buu, smugly toying with him to bait him into trying to absorb him so that he could rescue all those he had absorbed, and when he went on to fight Zamasu years later, he discarded this overconfident persona and fought fully seriously.

Kefla:

Intelligence: Average

Seriously. Even though Vegito has the superior experience and hax, Kefla beats out those advantages with her massive power and speed advantages. That is why I think Kefla wins.

 

[Jobbo]

Your entire argument fell apart when you brought up the 70% line which hasn't been relevant in years.

 

[Aeyu]

Agree with Jobbo. Those numbers were relevant to the BoG movies only. In DBS, Vegeta and Goku while in Blue early on were like a little tree compared to Beerus' gigantic castle.

>she could possibly beat Beerus

lolno

Kefla is weaker than GoD Toppo, who's not at Beerus' level either. UIS was implied to have ascended past Beerus, but it was only concrete after MUI.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I feel like these two rankings should be relatively obvious:

Base Kefla < Vegito Blue

SSJ2 + Berserker Kefla >> Vegito Blue

SSJ + Berserker Kefla vs Vegito Blue might be more even, but it's kind of hard to figure out exactly where that form would place.

 

[TheDarkSide857]

Your entire argument fell apart when you brought up the 70% line which hasn't been relevant in years.

Bro. It is relevant. Otherwise all Beerus needs to do is flick Goku's forehead like he did to SSJ3 Goku, and Goku reverts to base form.

Agree with Jobbo. Those numbers were relevant to the BoG movies only. In DBS, Vegeta and Goku while in Blue early on were like a little tree compared to Beerus' gigantic castle.

Oh yeah? Well then, why, when Goku was in Super Saiyan God which is 50x weaker than Super Saiyan Blue, able to fight on par with Beerus?

And actual feats are the most reliable source of information. Not quotes.

For example:

"My psycho power knows no limits!" - M. Bison

You know that's a quote, right? And it doesn't mean he's some almighty character that oneshots everything right?

>she could possibly beat Beerus
lolno

Kefla is weaker than GoD Toppo, who's not at Beerus' level either. UIS was implied to have ascended past Beerus, but it was only concrete after MUI.

Well you know what? GoD Toppo was pre-Limit Breaker Jiren, so thus Goku had already broken his limits twice. And meaning that he in episodes 114-116 is stronger than he was in episode 66, this means that he after his second Ultra Instinct is stronger than he was in episodes 114-116. And Super Saiyan Blue Shinka Vegeta was at least comparable to post-Kefla Goku in Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-Ken x20.

I feel like these two rankings should be relatively obvious:
Base Kefla < Vegito Blue

SSJ2 + Berserker Kefla >> Vegito Blue

SSJ + Berserker Kefla vs Vegito Blue might be more even, but it's kind of hard to figure out exactly where that form would place.

You all know literally nothing about Kefla. After Goku broke his limits once and turned into Ultra Instinct, he became stronger than he was in episode 66 when he fought on par with Beerus. And Super Saiyan Blue Shinka Vegeta appeared after Goku became Ultra Instinct a second time, so therefore he's comparable to Goku since he lasted just as long against Jiren as Super Saiyan Blue Kaio Ken x20 Goku. So therefore, Kefla and GoD Toppo are perfectly capable of fighting on par with Beerus.

You three each deserve two medals. One for being dumbasses and two if you drop the first one.

 

[Huesito88]

Wow that was just wow.......

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

My dude calm down, you cant go around calling people with different opinions Dumbasses

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

You three each deserve two medals. One for being dumbasses and two if you drop the first one.

Name calling? Really? Can't stay civil?

 

[Skalt711]

Oh yeah? Well then, why, when Goku was in Super Saiyan God which is 50x weaker than Super Saiyan Blue, able to fight on par with Beerus?

Do we still use these old multipliers?

Even if we'll believe that Katopesla's arguments are right, DBS's Super Saiyan multipliers could be not 50x, but something else. Whoops, some offtopic from me.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

@Skalt711

I don't believe we use any multipliers. And even if we did, IIRC, SSG and SSB don't have any actual numbers...

 

[TheDarkSide857]

Name calling? Really? Can't stay civil?

My dude calm down, you cant go around calling people with different opinions Dumbasses

Like you've never stooped to that level before?

@Skalt711 I don't believe we use any multipliers. And even if we did, IIRC, SSG and SSB don't have any actual numbers...

Dude, the 50x multipliers are the only multipliers that actually make sense.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"actually make sense"

Doesn't matter. They don't exist. SSJG and SSJB have no canon multipliers (Not like the multipliers have ever been canon to begin with).

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Name calling? Really? Can't stay civil?

My dude calm down, you cant go around calling people with different opinions Dumbasses

Like you've never stooped to that level before?
No, I haven't. If I think someone's wrong, I will say that. However, I go after the argument, not the person making the argument. Also, trying to say that because other people have done it, it's okay, doesn't make it right whatsoever.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

@Skalt711 I don't believe we use any multipliers. And even if we did, IIRC, SSG and SSB don't have any actual numbers...

Dude, the 50x multipliers are the only multipliers that actually make sense.

But if that 50x multiplier isn't actually a thing, then it's irrelevant. If we don't treat the other multipliers as canon either, then they don't matter anyway.

 

[TheDarkSide857]

"actually make sense"
Doesn't matter. They don't exist. SSJG and SSJB have no canon multipliers (Not like the multipliers have ever been canon to begin with).

We created the multipliers themselves, but in no way are they invalidated by Miyamoto. Have they even been debunked by an official source? No. Meaning that the multipliers are canon.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

"Miyamoto"

What?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

^^

No clue.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Also I'm pretty sure Aeyu was refering to 3rd Appearance Ultra Instinct -Sign- being on GoD level, since he was able to fight against Full Power Jiren, who is GoD level or above.

And 3rd UIS >>> SSJBE Vegeta, SSJBKKX20 Goku and GoD Toppo.

 

[Kirby71]

Now we discover Shigeru Miyamoto secretly created DBS so DB is from Nintendo xD

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

"You three each deserve two medals. One for being dumbasses and two if you drop the first one."

And for the love of god, please calm down.

 

[TheDarkSide857]

Also I'm pretty sure Aeyu was refering to 3rd Appearance Ultra Instinct -Sign- being on GoD level, since he was able to fight against Full Power Jiren, who is GoD level or above.
And 3rd UIS >>> SSJBE Vegeta, SSJBKKX20 Goku and GoD Toppo.

Only reason 3rd UIS is stronger than SSJB Shinka Vegeta, SSJBKKx20 Goku and GoD Toppo is because Goku mastered the form and made it MUI. UIS is stomped by Limit Breaker Jiren, so, therefore, Base Jiren should be on the same level as UIS or GoD Toppo, maybe higher.

 

[TheDarkSide857]

Now we discover Shigeru Miyamoto secretly created DBS so DB is from Nintendo xD

Whoops.

I meant to say Shonen Jump.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Only reason 3rd UIS is stronger than SSJB Shinka Vegeta, SSJBKKx20 Goku and GoD Toppo is because Goku mastered the form and made it MUI. UIS is stomped by Limit Breaker Jiren, so, therefore, Base Jiren should be on the same level as UIS or GoD Toppo, maybe higher.

Umm, no....


Full Power Base Jiren roflstomped and overpowered SSJBKKX20 Goku, SSJBE Vegeta and Android 17. Then 3rd UIS was able to fight against Full Power Jiren who is => GoD level and easily above Toppo.

Then he became even stronger as Limit Breaker Jiren, and matched MUI Goku, who was previously overwhelming Full Power Base Jiren.

 

[TheDarkSide857]

Only reason 3rd UIS is stronger than SSJB Shinka Vegeta, SSJBKKx20 Goku and GoD Toppo is because Goku mastered the form and made it MUI. UIS is stomped by Limit Breaker Jiren, so, therefore, Base Jiren should be on the same level as UIS or GoD Toppo, maybe higher.

Umm, no....

Full Power Base Jiren roflstomped and overpowered SSJBKKX20 Goku, SSJBE Vegeta and Android 17. Then 3rd UIS was able to fight against Full Power Jiren who is => GoD level and easily above Toppo.

Then he became even stronger as Limit Breaker Jiren, and matched MUI Goku, who was previously overwhelming Full Power Base Jiren.

Uh, no.

Jiren did not roflstomp and overpower SSJBKKX20 Goku, SSJBE Vegeta and Android 17. They were actually able to put up a fight against him since they dodged most of his attacks and their fight was post-Kefla, so Goku had broken his limits twice. Meaning that Jiren was stronger than the two of them, but that doesn't mean that he immediately roflstomps. The only time Jiren roflstomped was when he roflstomped pre-1st Ultra Instinct Goku, so Goku stood no chance against Jiren before Ultra Instinct.

 

[ByAsura]

@TheDarkSide

I think you're talking about the fight between Limit Breaker Vegeta and Limit Breaker X20 Blue Goku.

Against 17, Limit Breaker Vegeta, and Blue X20 Goku, Jiren won quite easily, but they did get some hits and counters in.

Now you could say they were low on energy, or at least Vegeta was, but firstly, he could use limit breaker blue, and secondly Jiren says at 1:55 "I can see why you were able to defeat Toppo. But, you won't beat me with that! So that Vegeta is, at the very minimum, comparable to God of Destruction Toppo, if not still stronger.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

They where clearly being overpowered by Jiren, so much that by the end neither Vegeta or Goku could transform to even basic SSJ. Jiren even repelled a combined attack from Android 17, SSJBKKX20 Goku and SSJBE Vegeta simply by powering up.

However 3rd UIS was able to blitz Jiren and hit him on the stomach, whereas the previous three couldn't land any decisive blows (except 17's sneak attack), so 3rd UIS is clearly greatly superior to the three of them. Not to mention that we know how much more powerful UIS is compared to SSJBKKx20 as a transformation.

FP Jiren >>> GoD Toppo > SSJ2 Kefla

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"You all know literally nothing about Kefla. After Goku broke his limits once and turned into Ultra Instinct, he became stronger than he was in episode 66 when he fought on par with Beerus. And Super Saiyan Blue Shinka Vegeta appeared after Goku became Ultra Instinct a second time, so therefore he's comparable to Goku since he lasted just as long against Jiren as Super Saiyan Blue Kaio Ken x20 Goku. So therefore, Kefla and GoD Toppo are perfectly capable of fighting on par with Beerus."

Bruh.

If Beerus were real, I think he'd destroy Earth due to how incredibly insulted this would make him.