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Kayako Saeki lifting strength downgrade / Jaw ripping discussion

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Qawsedf234

Qawsedf234

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The current profile.

This is her current lifting strength justification
Lifting Strength: Class 50 (Easily tore human jaws off)
Click to expand...
So looking at the calc it looks fine... until you get the source for the mPa figure. What's the source you ask? Well here it is. Now if it open the link this should be the first thing that jumps out to you

Tendon material properties vary and are interdependent among turkey hindlimb muscles​

turkey hindlimb muscles​

turkey​

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And when we go deeper into the source
We studied the tendons of six different muscles in the hindlimb of Eastern wild turkeys to determine whether there was variation in elastic modulus, ultimate tensile strength and resilience. A hydraulic testing machine was used to measure tendon force during quasi-static lengthening, and a stress–strain curve was constructed. There was substantial variation in tendon material properties among different muscles. Average elastic modulus differed significantly between some tendons, and values for the six different tendons varied nearly twofold, from 829±140 to 1479±106 MPa. Tendons were stretched to failure, and the stress at failure, or ultimate tensile stress, was taken as a lower-limit estimate of tendon strength. Breaking tests for four of the tendons revealed significant variation in ultimate tensile stress, ranging from 66.83±14.34 to 112.37±9.39 MPa.
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The above calc is using turkey leg tendons and substituting them for human jaw tendons. You do not need to a biology major to see the glaring issue with this premise. The article itself even mentions the randomness of tendons in animals
However, reported values vary widely, from low EM values of 160 MPa in juvenile pig tendon (Shadwick, 1990), to values exceeding 2000 MPa for human tendon (Maganaris et al., 2004).
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Another reason Turkey tendons cannot be cross scaled (I can't believe I said that), is because they're different in how they attach themselves to other sections of the body
Turkeys are a good model because their distal hindlimbs include numerous muscles with long free tendons. Most importantly, many of their tendons are continuous with ossified regions that provide a means for secure clamping, avoiding many of the problems associated with clamping soft tissues. By isolating six different muscle–tendon units (MTUs) from the same limbs, we were able to achieve a broad sample for comparisons of tendon EM, strength and resilience.
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The entire calc needs to be scrapped out. For now she, and anyone else who uses this, can just scale to superhuman for ripping off jaws until something else can be found.
 
I was told to move the thread to the calc discussion group.
 
bruh

Why not just look for values on human tendons and replace it with that?
 
KLOL506 said:
Why not just look for values on human tendons and replace it with that?
Click to expand...
Because tendons vary massively depending on the area of the body. The tendons in your legs are orders of magnitudes more resilient that those in like, your fingers. You would specifically need to find human jaw tendon strength.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Because tendons vary massively depending on the area of the body. The tendons in your legs are orders of magnitudes more resilient that those in like, your fingers. You would specifically need to find human jaw tendon strength.
Click to expand...
That's what I meant. Is there no document detailing human jaw tendon strength?
 
KLOL506 said:
Is there no document detailing human jaw tendon strength?
Click to expand...
The closest I've found was a 1500 newton figure for flexor human tendons, which fits with our other calcs I guess.

But even then I don't think its that much, since to rip the jaw off you can also make it weaker when the TMJ is detached.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
The closest I've found was a 1500 newton figure for flexor human tendons, which fits with our other calcs I guess.

But even then I don't think its that much, since to rip the jaw off you can also make it weaker when the TMJ is detached.
Click to expand...
TMJ? what's that?
 
Qawsedf234 said:
It would be 1500 newtons.
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I get the 1500 newton value for tendons, but wouldn't you have to convert it to kg/cm^2 and then apply it to surface area to get the strength like the calc did? Or am I missing something here?
 
KLOL506 said:
, but wouldn't you have to convert it to kg/cm^2
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It wouldn't really matter here, since the failing value of all material would be 1500 newtons. What would change is the energy needed to move that material with that amount of force.

Or in other words vaporizing up a jug of water and a swimming pool requires getting the water to the same temperature in both cases. The difference between the two is the amount of energy needed to turn the volumes to that temperature.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
It wouldn't really matter here, since the failing value of all material would be 1500 newtons. What would change is the energy needed to move that material with that amount of force.

Or in other words vaporizing up a jug of water and a swimming pool requires getting the water to the same temperature in both cases. The difference between the two is the amount of energy needed to turn the volumes to that temperature.
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Ah. I see.

So, uh... 1500 N, which equates to 152.9574 kgf. Kinna underwhelming. Oh well.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I mean, ripping off an entire human head is "only" 5,000 newtons. Its not that weird.
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5000-15000 newtons actually, and the 4400 newtons was a fluke, like an accident (The accidental hanging drop).

Anyway, you uh... got a link for the 1500 newton stuff? And where it says the flexor human tendons are present in the jaw?
 
Bump

So uh, any word on that article regarding the 1500 newton value and the flexor human tendons making up the jaw stuff?
 
I had misreae what flexor tendons applied to. So the jaw muscles wouldn't have that value.
 
Bump.

Going by the link the amount of profiles effected by this are rather small. So as before until something is calced they should be regulated to superhuman.
 
Jaw Ripping feats just aren't as spicy as 1 kiloton spine rips I guess.
 
How many profiles out there have a LS based in ripping jaws? I believe if the calc uses values from another animal with a jaw structure different than humans then the calc is discarded.

Plus I can spot other mistakes such the calc using the surface area of the joint when what is supposed to be used is the cross-sectional area; if we use this same method to find how much strength is needed to rip the head we'll have a value far above the 5000-15000 N.
 
Antoniofer said:
How many profiles out there have a LS based in ripping jaws? I believe if the calc uses values from another animal with a jaw structure different than humans then the calc is discarded.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it was discarded due to that reason, plus we have no values for human jaw muscles and the like.

Antoniofer said:
Plus I can spot other mistakes such the calc using the surface area of the joint when what is supposed to be used is the cross-sectional area; if we use this same method to find how much strength is needed to rip the head we'll have a value far above the 5000-15000 N.
Click to expand...
Doubt there's a lot like that out there AFAIK.
 
KLOL506 said:
Yeah, it was discarded due to that reason, plus we have no values for human jaw muscles and the like.
Click to expand...
So were the profile modified appropiately? Along with profiles that uses the same justification (I do not expect for them to be modified in the spot, but if find thise profiles the better would be to edit them)?
KLOL506 said:
Doubt there's a lot like that out there AFAIK.
Click to expand...
Normally people uses the head ripping value for these kind of things, so I doubt similar calcs with the same methodology were created.
 
Antoniofer said:
So were the profile modified appropiately? Along with profiles that uses the same justification (I do not expect for them to be modified in the spot, but if find thise profiles the better would be to edit them)?
Click to expand...
Qawsedf said he already took care of the profiles that originally had the Jaw-ripping calc.

Antoniofer said:
Normally people uses the head ripping value for these kind of things, so I doubt similar calcs with the same methodology were created.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure no one actually uses head-ripping values for something as small as the jaws.
 
Was not refering to jaws but for calcs that involve ripping stuff, such arms and legs. Also, that comment of yours make wonder why someone would believe that ripping that small joint would be 70-210 times harder than ripping an entire head...

Anyway, if the change were already applied (the amount of bumos made be believe the thread was not concluded) then this thread should be closed.
 
Antoniofer said:
Anyway, if the change were already applied (the amount of bumos made be believe the thread was not concluded) then this thread should be closed.
Click to expand...
Okay so it seems like Qaws forgot to edit the profiles with the Jaw calc to Superhuman. Gimme a sec.
 
Makes sense, I have no idea why we were using turkeys as a substitute for humans unless humans are actually turkeys in disguise and everything we know is a lie

This feat should just be Superhuman for now.
 
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