Kamehameha Upgrade: "The Turtle Hermit's greatest technique"

[Omegabronic]

the Kamehameha users on the wiki is that we don't give credit on how powerful the Kamehameha can actually be, sometimes getting downplayed as simply scalling to the user's normal statistics, but that can't be more wrong, first an explanation how it works

Condensing power to make it stronger​

First of all, the basics of it, the kamehameha is said to be the Turtle School's greatest technique, what makes it so strong is its ability to condense one's inner energy/Ki into a single point as well as amplifying it, increasing one's and releasing it all at once, making it a "super dangerous" technique that can dish out "tremendous power", causing "tremendous damage". Due to its nature of condensing Ki, its power naturally varies depending on the amount of Energy that is condensed, the power also being able to be fully controlled by users of it

Example within the series​

Goku vs Wall​

During the time Goku and co were stuck inside a room with reinforced doors, Goku's attacks were "no good", but with his Kamehameha he could make a hole in it, him also saying he could make it bigger if he had more practice

Roshi vs Oozaru Goku​

Despite being comparable to Goku through out the fight, and then being completely scared by his Oozaru form, his Kamehameha is heavily implied to be able to outright kill him

Goku vs Roshi 21 Budokai​

Despite being relative to Goku during their entire fight, Roshi was utterly terrified of Goku's Kamehameha and needed to dodge it, making it clear it is far above himself in power, and thus above Goku as well. One could say that he was weaker due to using so much energy for his Kamehameha against the moon earlier, but so was Goku, and even at that stage both were still comparable to one another

Goku vs Full Metal Jacket​

During this "fight" absolutely all of Goku's blows were useless, not damaging the robot even a little, while Metal was able to effortlesly trow Goku around with his punches, his missile specially is implied by himself and Goku to be able to kill him, Goku comparing it to a Kamehameha. But when Goku himself charged his Kamehameha, he blew a hole in the chest and destroyed the head of Metal Jacket effortlessly

Goku vs Raditz​

Despite Raditz overwhelming advantage in power against Goku and Piccolo, being able to toy with them both while holding back and destroy their limbs with a single strike if he so wished, once he prepared a Kamehameha to launch at him, raising his power level significantly, Raditz got scarred enough to dodge the attack and actually block it, which, despite him shrugging off Goku and Piccolo's attacks at the same time, still made Goku question how Raditz could possibly be able to block his Kamehameha, indicating that it is much stronger than his normal attacks

Piccolo vs Cell​

Even though Cell is squarely outclassed by Piccolo normally, with Piccolo mocking how weak Cell is, the Bio-Android's Kamehameha forces Piccolo to evade and visibly makes him very scared

Goku vs Cell​

Despite Cell's relative power to Goku(of course, while holding back) Goku was able to obliterate a huge part of his upper body with his Kamehameha

Gohan vs Cell​

Despite Cell being able to break Gohan's arm with one simple Ki blast while "fooling around", his stronger Kamehameha after gathering energy for a while was able to be matched, and then surpassed, by Gohan's own Kamehameha which also destroyed Cell completely

Gohan vs Dabura​

Even though Dabura can handily defeat SS Gohan, Gohan's Kamehameha forces him to dodge with Babidi

Goku vs Zamasu​

SSB Goku's Kamehameha punctures Fusion Zamasu, who is as strong as PSSB Goku; a factor of >10x

Goku vs Moro​

(P)SSB Goku's Kamehameha destroys 7-3 Moro, destroying his arm, which even -Sign- Goku failed to do. Moro also immediately after effortlessly one shots that same Goku without any difficulty

Conclusion​

as one can see from all the examples and statements, if one condenses enough energy, the Kamehameha can be devastating in power, forcing far superior opponents to dodge, while also making them very scared, and also making the user surpass durability that no sold their earlier attacks, my proposal? nothing too wild:

Damage Boost or Statistics Amplification(dunno which one fits best) (The Kamehameha is the Turtle School's greatest technique that condenses the body's inner energy into a single point to amplify the power for "tremendous damage" making it a "super dangerous" technique that can dish out "tremendous power". The power of the technique naturally varies depending on the amount of energy condensed, with experienced users being able to fully control how powerful it is, at its strongest, it can scare, severely harm and even completely annihilate opponents who were comparable, or far superior, to the user prior or in stronger forms)

...Varies, up to Far Higher with Kamehameha (By condensing enough energy/Ki into a single point, the Kamehameha can get strong enough to easily destroy beings far superior to the user), of course, if it hits a new tier, it will have a additional "up to X" to it as well

since it also allowed Goku to drill through Zamasu as a SSB without his full power(which is a >10x difference in power) and would have allowed Roshi to kill an Oozaru Goku(Another 10x boost in power) the upper level of power the Kamehameha can get is >>> 10x that of the user's base power

very simple and straightforward

But you might be wondering "if it can be so powerful, why don't they spam the Kamehameha at its Full Capability all the time" well, simple, it would waste a lot of Energy, trowing a Kamehameha at Full Power drains the user a lot, sometimes making them straight up unable to do another one

a huge thanks to @Nullflowerblush for helping me with guide scans and with some extra examples of the series

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[Nierre]

which even -Sign- Goku failed to do.

Did Goku even tag Moro here? It looks like he dodged it to me.

Anyway, I suppose I'll stay neutral, leaning towards agreeing. I do know there are instances of characters being comparable to their [Kamehameha's], iirc I remember Goku blocked his own Kame on Kami's Planet? But the OP does show that there are instances where the Kamehameha is obviously superior to the user's physicals.

 

[Omegabronic]

Did Goku even tag Moro here? It looks like he dodged it to me.

there is an impact effect right in front of Moro's arm in that scene, signifying that he hit Goku there and even then......Moro one shot Goku effortlesly in that scene, so the end game stays the same nonetheless

Anyway, I suppose I'll stay neutral, leaning towards agreeing. I do know there are instances of characters being comparable to their [Kamehameha's],
iirc I remember Goku blocked his own Kame on Kami's Planet? But the OP does show that there are instances where the Kamehameha is obviously superior to the user's physicals.

as pointed out in the OP, and even showed during Goku's Fight with Cell, a Kamehameha's power isn't set in stone, it freely varies depending on the User's control and the amount of energy they condense to make it, so those instances where it is shown comparable are easily explainable by the varied nature of the attack itself

 

[Nierre]

there is an impact effect right in front of Moro's arm in that scene

That "impact" effect says "WHF" which sounds like a "whiff" sound to me, which is air. As in he didn't actually hit him, he just kicked the air cause he missed.

 

[Omegabronic]

That "impact" effect says "WHF" which sounds like a "whiff" sound to me, which is air. As in he didn't actually hit him, he just kicked the air cause he missed.

it doesn't say "WHF" it says "TMP", which sounds like a "thump"/impact sound to me

 

[Nierre]

it doesn't say "WHF" it says "TMP", which sounds like a "thump"/impact sound to me

oh i was looking at the wrong image lol

 

[Spinoirr]

Vs Moro goku used a kaioken PSSB like he did In the ToP

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Thank. You. I completely agree and Goku upgrades are very welcome.

In fact, I think a lot of DB techniques deserve their own page.

 

[Ednaxel2]

I agree with this, but I think a varied rating isn’t necessary, just a “far higher” rating, and “far higher, up to X” for characters that reach higher tiers.

 

[Ednaxel2]

There are times when characters are comparable to their kamehameha/other charged attacks but they still downscale from it, so a higher rating would still be needed even if it’s not by much

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

There are times when characters are comparable to their kamehameha/other charged attacks but they still downscale from it, so a higher rating would still be needed even if it’s not by much

These are my thoughts, agree with the premise but you also have moments where characters still clearly downscale from charged attacks.

A higher rating seems good.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Agree with the thread, although without establishing any bare minimum I don't see it being much of an upgrade. This site probably won't let us apply our own accepted mechanics onto the verse for some fcking reason, given that whole 'the series needs to show a feat that justifies how high speed ratings get with mutlipliers' BS we thankfully dealt with.

 

[Omegabronic]

There are times when characters are comparable to their kamehameha/other charged attacks but they still downscale from it, so a higher rating would still be needed even if it’s not by much

Ig, still, the move IS ditectly said to vary in power, but if others object to a varies rating i won't fight hard against. Altho the time they still downscale are showings that it indeed varies in stenght, Cell deflected a Kamehameha by Goku only for his upper body to be mostly desintegrated by another down the line, and with Gohan vs Cell situation as well

 

[GrayCraft_Dragon]

simple and love it

 

[Omegabronic]

bump

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

There are times when characters are comparable to their kamehameha/other charged attacks but they still downscale from it, so a higher rating would still be needed even if it’s not by much

Agreed

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

The x10 multiplier thing is a bit iffy, I must say.
While it's true that Oozaru Goku is roughly x10 stronger than Roshi's base self, the Roshi who could've killed him with a Kamehameha was MAX Power Roshi.
Not sure about the Zamasu stuff either, since I'm pretty sure Goku and Vegeta were using the God into Blue strategy in the prior fight, so SSB Goku's full power wouldn’t necessarily have dropped to 10% or lower by the time he punctured Zamasu.

Would also be weird when a fully charged SBC is only like, a x3.4 AP boost.

 

[Omegabronic]

The x10 multiplier thing is a bit shaky, I must say.
While it's true that Oozaru Goku is roughly 10x stronger than Roshi's base self, the Roshi who could've killed him with a Kamehameha was MAX Power Roshi.

True, but Max Power Roshi had no other choice other than destroy the Moon to stop Goku by his own admission, therefore even his Maximum power wouldn't be enough to stop Goku in a non lethal way, implying superiority or relative power for Oozaru in comparison to Roshi

Not sure about the Zamasu stuff either, since I'm pretty sure Goku and Vegeta were using the God into Blue strategy in the prior fight, so SSB Goku's full power wouldn’t necessarily have dropped to 10% or lower by the time he punctured Zamasu.

Goku wasn't using that at all, and the weakness of Blue there was very much present, hence why he needed to discover Perfect SSB, the power drop from Full Power due to SSB's waste of energy is the whole point of the new "form" even, so it is still pretty much present

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

True, but Max Power Roshi had no other choice other than destroy the Moon to stop Goku by his own admission, therefore even his Maximum power wouldn't be enough to stop Goku in a non lethal way, implying superiority or relative power for Oozaru in comparison to Roshi

Yeah, but this doesn’t necessarily tell us how much more powerful Oozaru Goku is. The gap between them is unknown, so we can't really go with a x10 stat disparity.

Goku wasn't using that at all, and the weakness of Blue there was very much present, hence why he needed to discover Perfect SSB, the power drop from Full Power due to SSB's waste of energy is the whole point of the new "form" even, so it is still pretty much present

The God to Blue strategy does conserve Blue's power, it's just a less effective way of doing so to Perfect SSB, since it doesn't cancel it out completely and just reduces it.

But yes, I was thinking of Vegeta. Goku used Blue for the Mafuba against Zamasu and was in God for everything else, so while his Blue power would be weaker, we can't really say that his power was reduced to the >10% range specifically. It certainly doesn't work as definitive proof for a consistent multiplier.

 

[Omegabronic]

Yeah, but this doesn’t necessarily tell us how much more powerful Oozaru Goku is. The gap between them is unknown, so we can't really go with a x10 stat disparity.

it is still a large gap if he NEEDED the Kamehameha at full power to stop Goku at all, so leaving as Support is not wrong

also........Maximum Power is not a transformation, it is simply Roshi using his maximum power, the Kamehameha itself is just "him putting all his power into it" so for the Kamehameha itself, it would still be valid

The God to Blue strategy does conserve Blue's power

.....i never said it didn't?

, it's just a less effective way of doing so to Perfect SSB, since it doesn't cancel it out completely and just reduces it.

But yes, I was thinking of Vegeta.

Why are you bringing This up when my entire point was that Goku never used this strategy?

Goku used Blue for the Mafuba against Zamasu and was in God for everything else,

Wrong, he fought Zamasu as a SSB and even used a strong Kamehameha to Damage him
Vegeta got reduced to less than 10% after trowing a single attack as a SSB against Kabba, that was ALL his SSB did before fighting Hit, which as explained by the scans in the OP, was what reduced his power to bellow 10% the Full Power of SSB, who he one shotted btw, so Goku getting beat up, attacking with clear effort, far more than Vegeta at the U6 Tournament, and wasting energy with a clearly very charged Kamehameha, would INDEED make his power get even bellow Vegeta's showing in the U6 Tournament

so while his Blue power would be weaker, we can't really say that his power was reduced to the >10% range specifically. It certainly doesn't work as definitive proof for a consistent multiplier.

as i pointed above, if anything, his power would have been reduced LOWER than > 10%, so yes, it DOES WORK as a definitive proof of a Multiplier

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

it is still a large gap if he NEEDED the Kamehameha at full power to stop Goku at all, so leaving as Support is not wrong

also........Maximum Power is not a transformation, it is simply Roshi using his maximum power, the Kamehameha itself is just "him putting all his power into it" so for the Kamehameha itself, it would still be valid

It's as much Support to a x10 multiplier as every "Can turn stomps around" Kamehameha then. Since the gap is again, unknown.
Even if Roshi's MAX Power isn't a transformation, it's still "far higher" than the Roshi Goku fought, the one who he'd be x10 stronger than.

Why are you bringing This up when my entire point was that Goku never used this strategy?

I like yapping.

Wrong, he fought Zamasu as a SSB and even used a strong Kamehameha to Damage him
Vegeta got reduced to less than 10% after trowing a single attack as a SSB against Kabba, who he one shotted btw, so Goku getting beat up, attacking with clear effort, far more than Vegeta at the U6 Tournament, and wasting energy with a clearly very charged Kamehameha, would INDEED make his power get even bellow Vegeta's showing in the U6 Tournament

Duh, I'm not counting the fight where he threw the Kamehameha itself.
Plus, I'm pretty sure the massive drop in power Vegeta got was more due to him just passively staying in SSJB, not the amount of attacks, since it constantly exudes so much ki.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Actually Vegeta immediately detransformed after knocking Cabba out, so I really don't see why it consumed so much energy.
Blue Goku did do better than God Goku and Vegeta against Zamasu, so that's weird.

 

[Omegabronic]

It's as much Support to a x10 multiplier as every "Can turn stomps around" Kamehameha then. Since the gap is again, unknown.
Even if Roshi's MAX Power isn't a transformation, it's still "far higher" than the Roshi Goku fought, the one who he'd be x10 stronger than.

ok, fair enough

I like yapping.

....you are so lucky your charisma is a high stat lol

Duh, I'm not counting the fight where he threw the Kamehameha itself.

Forget the Kamehameha, the punches earlier would waste way more energy than what Vegeta did against Cabba, which is what let him helpless against Hit's Time Skip

Plus, I'm pretty sure the massive drop in power Vegeta got was more due to him just passively staying in SSJB, not the amount of attacks, since it constantly exudes so much ki.

nope, as he stayed in it for a few moments before trowing a single punch and immediately reverting back to base form and never using Blue again

Actually Vegeta immediately detransformed after knocking Cabba out, so I really don't see why it consumed so much energy.
Blue Goku did do better than God Goku and Vegeta against Zamasu, so that's weird.

well, it just wastes that much more energy than all other forms, it is legit weak like that, there is nothing much more to tell tbh

 

[Damage3245]

I don't agree with a ten times multiplier for it, but I do agree with rating the Kamehameha as higher. I've been saying this on the forum for ages.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I do not agree with treating Kamehameha as any type of multiplier, it's notably inconsistent on how strong charged attacks are compared to melee attacks. Yes, there are some cases where a new technique is able to match the power or even OHKO characters several times stronger than themselves, but then there are cases where they got 20x stronger, but the Kamehameha wave hasn't gotten that much stronger and even more or less only became slightly stronger than their main body.

 

[Omegabronic]

I do not agree with treating Kamehameha as any type of multiplier, it's notably inconsistent on how strong charged attacks are compared to melee attacks. Yes, there are some cases where a new technique is able to match the power or even OHKO characters several times stronger than themselves, but then there are cases where they got 20x stronger, but the Kamehameha wave hasn't gotten that much stronger and even more or less only became slightly stronger than their main body.

The Kamehameha isn't "inconsistent", nor am i proposing a set multiplier

The Kamehameha is said directly to be vary in power, at maximum output, it can obliterate beings far stronger than the user

The cases where it is comparable to the user are simply cases where it isn't condensed enough Energy to be far superior, i don't feel like it is correct to say it is "inconsistent" when we have a clear statement about it varying in power

I don't agree with a ten times multiplier for it, but I do agree with rating the Kamehameha as higher. I've been saying this on the forum for ages.

Multiplier aside, do you agree with the "Varries" rating? And do you think should be "Damage Boost" or "Stats Amplification"?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

If it changes anything, Krillin's Scattering Kamehameha is already sorta treated as x6 his base AP (The "sorta" is there cause Krillin is slightly stronger than a Saibaman).

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I want to just say that the Kamehameha like all the way through OG to the Raditz fight has always been at least a few times stronger considering Goku's power level triples with it against Piccolo and Raditz as shown by the guidebook and Raditz's scouter.

 

[Omegabronic]

I want to just say that the Kamehameha like all the way through OG to the Raditz fight has always been at least a few times stronger considering Goku's power level triples with it against Piccolo and Raditz as shown by the guidebook and Raditz's scouter.

Power Levels aren't linear like that to say trippling them = tripping actual AP

Also, the Kamehameha is always stronger than the base strenght, but by how much varies(do i need to highlight it in the OP?) It DOESN'T have a set level of power above the user

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with the proposal.

 

[Huesito88]

Power Levels aren't linear like that to say trippling them = tripping actual AP

Actually I think he got it mixed up with Gohan (enraged) whom we do treat as three times Goku's own power

 

[CloverDragon03]

I agree with just making the Kamehameha a higher rating, and in cases where it's shown to scale somewhere definitive, make it "up to [insert tier here]"

 

[Omegabronic]

With 3 agrees, this passed, i will apply the changes tommorow

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

 

[Omegabronic]

finally found time to edit the changes, somethings in my personal life are making it hard for me to really get into editing the profiles in the moment, i edited Master Roshi's so far, will do something and try to edit some other profiles today, if anyone wants to help out, here is Roshi to work as a basis https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Master_Roshi

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I agree with most of this, very sound as well as narratively consistent, as for the multiplier- no
if you wanna say most Kamehameha would be 10x then def no, but the Max power ones can be given that rating, although it is a bit shaky

 

[Omegabronic]

finally found time to edit the changes, somethings in my personal life are making it hard for me to really get into editing the profiles in the moment, i edited Master Roshi's so far, will do something and try to edit some other profiles today, if anyone wants to help out, here is Roshi to work as a basis https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Master_Roshi

finished editing Goku all through the main continuity, will continue to edit more tomorrow