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Jujutsu kaisen top tier speed downgrade

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But do you believe that one instance where the story tells you that Hakari is a lightning timer takes precedence over dozens of times where the story shows them as sub to super sonic?
I don't think the story ever shows Hakari to be anywhere near subsonic or supersonic, but if it did then sure it'll be an issue.
It's not even like Hakari is above everyone else, like I firmly believe Naobito to be faster than him. Yuta and Yuji being relative while having Subsonic and Supersonic feats, Maki getting blitzed by Naoya at Mach 3 and only keeping up because of the senses, all of them being somewhat relative to Hakari considering their positions story-wise.
Yuta was holding back on Yuji, literally says he's playing around and is slowly increasing his speed as the fight goes on, Maki did get faster through her awakening via how HR is stated to function and by her feats with Naoya having no feats on awakened Maki.
 
Just dropping in briefly while I can, the point being made about the Mach 6000 correction in the original thread was that it falls under a similar principle to the rule on Evading Punches, Hakari ends up being several times faster than an attack he could barely react to in time and Kashimo's regular punches end up speed blitzing his lightning discharges
 
I don't think the story ever shows Hakari to be anywhere near subsonic or supersonic, but if it did then sure it'll be an issue.
I mean that Hakari is relative to people being that fast. Not that he is this fast himself.
Yuta was holding back on Yuji, literally says he's playing around and is slowly increasing his speed as the fight goes on, Maki did get faster through her awakening via how HR is stated to function and by her feats with Naoya having no feats on awakened Maki.
Unless you're reading a different translation or that I'm blind, I don't remember that in the manga. Naoya does have feats against Maki, I'm talking about Cursed Naoya btw.
 
I don't think the story ever shows Hakari to be anywhere near subsonic or supersonic, but if it did then sure it'll be an issue.

Yuta was holding back on Yuji, literally says he's playing around and is slowly increasing his speed as the fight goes on, Maki did get faster through her awakening via how HR is stated to function and by her feats with Naoya having no feats on awakened Maki.
Didn't maki also clap domain amped Naoya too btw
That cursed naoya domain amped.
 
Just dropping in briefly while I can, the point being made about the Mach 6000 correction in the original thread was that it falls under a similar principle to the rule on Evading Punches, Hakari ends up being several times faster than an attack he could barely react to in time and Kashimo's regular punches end up speed blitzing his lightning discharges
The thing is that the calc you proposed is wrong 😅.
 
If the correct calc results in Hakari being faster than the lightning that he can't even properly dodge, it must be an outlier regardless of the fact that the God Tiers— let alone a Grade 1 like Hakari— still use canonically supersonic attacks and treat <0.01 seconds as an incredibly short timeframe.

Like Hakari rn is stalling Uraume, who was shocked by the speed of Choso's piercing blood. Mach 6000 feels unlikely.

We talking about after. She pulled her sword back out, cursed naoya just stood there after staring at her and she brought her sword up and slashed down.
Naoya is only supersonic+ after building up speed, doesn't scale to combat speed.
 
If the correct calc results in Hakari being faster than the lightning that he can't even properly dodge, it must be an outlier
No, he can't dodge it because it's a HOMING ATTACK, brother please read the manga
regardless of the fact that the God Tiers— let alone a Grade 1 like Hakari— still use canonically supersonic attacks and treat <0.01 seconds as an incredibly short timeframe.
the grading system isn't about stat scaling, Hakari being grade 1 means nothing, and they never treat supersonic attacks and 0.01 second time frames as impressive.
Like Hakari rn is stalling Uraume, who was shocked by the speed of Choso's piercing blood. Mach 6000 feels unlikely.
You mean an off guard Uraume being shocked that Choso is that fast since she thought Choso was supposed to be fodder?
 
Most of this chapter isn't them fighting, that's why. The chapter starts off with a stare down between Gojo and Sukuna as Gojo heals his wound, then they throw a few blows, then Gojo begins charging up a red which Sukuna waits for so that Mahoraga can hit it to adapt, and then they leap and fight briefly in the air before Gojo once again begin uses incantations.
doesn't change the distance crossed in specific timeframes, do you legit not see the problem here?

from the subjesctive time of a mach 500 speedster a single second is a small eternity given the theory of relativity stating that no motion exists and everything is based on reference frames, you're suggesting they were standing for god knows how long from their prespective and simply stared at each other while doing nothing for no reason is basesless at best

and this post doesn't change the fact that they only crossed a couple hundred meters at best in the span of 41 seconds, i know you're smart, please think about what that implies in this scenario

Are you going to downgrade Dragon Ball characters for the Tournament of Power where they fought for 48 minutes and yet never traversed thousands of meters? No, because not only is combat never straightforward to measure that way, there was also a lot of scenes of them talking, strategizing, and having stare downs.
dragon is an inconsistent pile of mess,jjk isn't, so don't draw any equivalence, and assuming i can easily quantify the distance they crossed in 49 minutes i can then infer their speed and add it as anti feat


Also, what's a more reliable showing of speed in a piece of media, someone dodging lightning - a near constant speed which is easily comparable and measurable
mate, the onlt people here who think that lightning is as fast as real lightning are people who want to make the characters way faster than they ever were, lightning or not, the multiple explicit timeframes given to us by gege are a far more reliable source of data to infer from, and they all go against the notion of kashimo's lightning being as fast as irl lightning



- or someone having a fist fight within a 41 second frame and they, via pixel measurements or whatever you're using, fail to actually traversing a certain distance threshold via their punches, dodges, dashes, and.... dialogue?
this, this is the more accurate representation of speed, because it implies the characters exchange a dozen or so attacks at best in time frame measured in the seconds, unleash attacks in time frames that are also measured in the seconds and cross several hundred meters at best in...you get the gist

Idk why ya'll make such absurd standards for JJK lmfao
ah yes, absurd standard of using the series to scale it, what a tragedy am i right


well, my head hurts, so this will be the last of me, i don't feel like explaining basic physics (legit how do you all think speed works?)

well, see ya
 
Just dropping in briefly while I can, the point being made about the Mach 6000 correction in the original thread was that it falls under a similar principle to the rule on Evading Punches, Hakari ends up being several times faster than an attack he could barely react to in time and Kashimo's regular punches end up speed blitzing his lightning discharges
Not necessarily, Kashimo's lightning can vary in speed. The speed of lightning would vary with the charge. The positive and negative charges affect the electric field of the lightning, which in turn affects the speed. Kashimo directly influences the positive and negative charges to direct the lighting through the created electric field.

Anyways going with this idea also doesn't disprove anything it just showcases that Hakari's speed is relative to that of lightning, it's never about the calc entirely, Hakari is relative to lightning. The this reasoning Hikari's description would just be changed to "MHS (Dodges lightning at close ranges)" with no direct speed value to it.
 
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the grading system isn't about stat scaling, Hakari being grade 1 means nothing, and they never treat supersonic attacks and 0.01 second time frames as impressive.
? Entire cast (except yuta) can’t perceive the 0.1 difference from gojo and sukuna domain expansion

Also they always treat supersonic attack as impressive lmao

Curseworm Naoya make entire cityblock crumbles with his barely supersonic speed , kenjaku saying gun are good weapon against sorcerer , piecing blood get treated as high speed attack , Mach 3 naoya blitz maki on and on
You mean an off guard Uraume being shocked that Choso is that fast since she thought Choso was supposed to be fodder?
Shock by someone 6000 time slower than her?

I believe that more than different between snail and human
 
doesn't change the distance crossed in specific timeframes, do you legit not see the problem here?

from the subjesctive time of a mach 500 speedster a single second is a small eternity given the theory of relativity stating that no motion exists and everything is based on reference frames, you're suggesting they were standing for god knows how long from their prespective and simply stared at each other while doing nothing for no reason is basesless at best

and this post doesn't change the fact that they only crossed a couple hundred meters at best in the span of 41 seconds, i know you're smart, please think about what that implies in this scenario
We literally see them doing incantations and having internal monologues whilst staring at each other, there is no way to for sure measure the distance here since they evidently aren't in constant perpetual motion. You're not engaging with this and just pretending like we can still infer an anti-feat, if I participate in a race where at several intervals I'm stopping to talk then that's not an accurate depiction of my speed at all.

mate, the onlt people here who think that lightning is as fast as real lightning are people who want to make the characters way faster than they ever were, lightning or not, the multiple explicit timeframes given to us by gege are a far more reliable source of data to infer from, and they all go against the notion of kashimo's lightning being as fast as irl lightning
Ah yes, lightning doesn't equal irl lightning. Why not just say sound in JJK is faster than irl sound? Why only do the reverse? Obviously we don't need to do either, Gege has wrote a coherent series with a huge gap in power for his top tiers, not unlike many shonen series.
this, this is the more accurate representation of speed, because it implies the characters exchange a dozen or so attacks at best in time frame measured in the seconds, unleash attacks in time frames that are also measured in the seconds and cross several hundred meters at best in...you get the gist
Except we're never given that, we're given a broad time frame over a sequence wherein characters are doing things besides throwing punches.
 
No, he can't dodge it because it's a HOMING ATTACK, brother please read the manga
It was still aiming for his head, and instead struck his arm when Hakari moved, no? Otherwise there's no speed calc at all since dodging isn't possible.

the grading system isn't about stat scaling, Hakari being grade 1 means nothing, and they never treat supersonic attacks and 0.01 second time frames as impressive.
The Grading system is flawed but still useful, Kenjaku at the very least considers it as such given how he references it in regards to strength multiple times. Supersonic is absolutely treated as impressive by the entire cast, that's the scary part of Piercing Blood. And 0.01 seconds is in fact treated as impressive, given only Yuta and Higuruma could barely detect that time difference.

You mean an off guard Uraume being shocked that Choso is that fast since she thought Choso was supposed to be fodder?
He was charging Piercing Blood right in front of them, and they were shocked by the speed and bsrely blocked it. Uraume is not 6000 times faster than Piercing Blood.
 
? Entire cast (except yuta) can’t perceive the 0.1 difference from gojo and sukuna domain expansion
It's a <0.01 time frame, not a 0.1 time frame.

Higuruma also perceived it despite being one of the slowest people there, mainly because they were watching the fight through TV devices where it's harder to notice the precise movements occuring within small time frames as opposed to doing it in person - Yuji is even shocked at Sukuna's speed despite watching him fight.
Curseworm Naoya make entire cityblock crumbles with his barely supersonic speed
Naoya has no feats of scaling to the top tiers, idk why we'd bring him up.
kenjaku saying gun are good weapon against sorcerer
Against average sorcerers who are subsonic, yes they are effective, but even teenage Geto can easily block a barrage of bullets being shot at him and Kenjaku does the same. This isn't a statement made when referencing people like Gojo lmfao, especially since in the CG we get bottom tiers tanking grenades.
piecing blood get treated as high speed attack
Piercing blood also improves over time and get be pressurised further and be amplified by more CE the better the sorcerer gets, with Choso's piercing blood measurably and demonstrably getting faster. Even then, it's never relevant to any top tiers with Kenjaku effortlessly dodging it when it's cm away from him, Uraume catching it whilst off guard, and Sukuna blitzing it.
Mach 3 naoya blitz maki
A slower Maki, yes, why does this matter?
Shock by someone 6000 time slower than her?
Yes? If I have the expectation that someone is really slow and then they show themselves to be exceptional, even if they're still leagues below me, I'd still be shocked since my expectations were wrong. That's how expectations work.
 
It was still aiming for his head, and instead struck his arm when Hakari moved, no? Otherwise there's no speed calc at all since dodging isn't possible.
Yea, so he dodged it and it still hit his body since it was tracking his body.
The Grading system is flawed but still useful, Kenjaku at the very least considers it as such given how he references it in regards to strength multiple times. Supersonic is absolutely treated as impressive by the entire cast, that's the scary part of Piercing Blood. And 0.01 seconds is in fact treated as impressive, given only Yuta and Higuruma could barely detect that time difference.


He was charging Piercing Blood right in front of them, and they were shocked by the speed and bsrely blocked it. Uraume is not 6000 times faster than Piercing Blood.
I already addressed this all
 
Naoya should have been a hard cap for most the verse considering Maki can react to Sukuna so the top tiers won't be much higher. I don't understand why the MHS rating is still there after it.
 
Naoya has no feats of scaling to the top tiers, idk why we'd bring him up.
His point is to show how great speed is portrayed within the manga, Naoya's speed affects the area several times, Hakari's and others do not. Gege had mentioned how he wanted to portray the doppler effect and yet we haven't seen this with Hakari at all.
 
Naoya should have been a hard cap for most the verse considering Maki can react to Sukuna so the top tiers won't be much higher. I don't understand why the MHS rating is still there after it.
At lot of people think Gege retconned it due to this.
zvg9w0ygldg91.jpg
 
Naoya should have been a hard cap for most the verse considering Maki can react to Sukuna so the top tiers won't be much higher. I don't understand why the MHS rating is still there after it.
IIRC, it is cuz the JJK peps here are just waiting for the current arc to warp up before removing it. Could be mistaken, tho. There might be another reason I don't know about.
 
It does matter because no matter what he does, it'll hit him. Best he can do is shift it so it hits his arm instead in that moment.
Secondly Hakari was already in movement, running towards Kashimo, just to get surprised to see him suddenly launch that attack at him, which you can see given how surprised he is. He had to stop and shift there. If Hakari was expecting it then I'd agree but this isn't the case here.
While I agree this idea of being surprised can work in a lot of cases, during a fight where both characters are experienced fighters, saying Hakari was surprised given his 5x speed difference doesn't make sense. It isn't as though this lightning strike came from out of his peripheral or was undetectable, its right in front of him and completely visible.
 
His point is to show how great speed is portrayed within the manga, Naoya's speed affects the area several times, Hakari's and others do not. Gege had mentioned how he wanted to portray the doppler effect and yet we haven't seen this with Hakari at all.
Gege also stops drawing sonic booms for characters who are confirmed or shown to be faster than sound. Not doing something isn't an indicator that something isn't true. Quite literally 99% series do this. Gege also stops coloring Yuji's nails when he turns into Sukuna, so I guess that was never a thing. Gege also shows the formation of natural lightning through the positive and negative charges with Kashimo. Unless the requirements that they need to show everything then you are asking for a fault expectation
 
I already addressed this all
Uraume wasn't off-guard in the slightest. They jumped in front of Choso, then imbued their hands with Cursed Energy while Choso charged Convergence. Then, Choso fired Piercing Blood and Uraume blocked it with their palm, remarking that the technique is fast.
 
Gege also stops drawing sonic booms for characters who are confirmed or shown to be faster than sound. Not doing something isn't an indicator that something isn't true. Quite literally 99% do this. Gege also stops coloring Yuji's nails when he turns into Sukuna, so I guess that was never a thing. Gege also shows the formation of natural lightning through the positive and negative charges with Kashimo. Unless the requirements that they need to show everything then you are asking for a fault expectation
You're missing my point.

Naoya is an example of great speed in the series, Hakari is not and he is not portrayed to be of great speed. I am not arguing for constant visuals of speed, I am arguing for the lack of emphasis of his great speed entirely.

Naoya - Great speed is shown and recognized by the narrator and characters around.
Naobito - Great speed is shown and recognized by the narrator and characters around.
Gojo - Stated to be the fastest and is shown to have great speed, even if this happens to be due to Blue.
Toji/Maki - Great speed is shown and recognized by characters around.
Hakari - Calc.
 
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You're missing my point.

Naoya is an example of great speed in the series, Hakari is not and he is not portrayed to be of great of speed. I am not arguing for constant visuals of speed, I am arguing for the lack of emphasis of his great speed entirely.

Naoya - Great speed is shown and recognized by the narrator and characters around.
Naobito - Great speed is shown and recognized bye the narrator and characters around.
Gojo - Stated to be the fastest and is shown to have great speed, even if this happens to be due to Blue.
Toji/Maki - Great speed is shown and recognized by characters around.
Hakari - Calc.
Or maybe, just maybe.

Naoya is the benchmark that holds down the mid-tiers in the verse showing his great speed and power, and Hakari is a character who is constantly regarded as a top tier if not the #1 top tier at the time. With this tier having a fight and shown to be relative to lightning in one fight and in the very next fight after we are shown a benchmark in Naoya to surpass to start entering that top tiers of the verse. With it after that showing various feats far above Naoya after it.

Maybe having these two fights is trying to say something together and not separate competing elements. Maybe showing lightning top tiers and Mach 3 mid-tiers together is saying something, like a gap in level and abilities. hmmm
 
Homing attacks can be dodged if you’re fast enough, read the homing page, and its just an obvious thing. Hakari’s also 5x faster? How tf didn’t he blitz it
Not Kashimo's since it's compared to a sure-hit, also he began dodging it whilst it was already incredibly close to him, hence why it can't be blitzed.
Naoya should have been a hard cap for most the verse considering Maki can react to Sukuna so the top tiers won't be much higher. I don't understand why the MHS rating is still there after it.
Naoya has no scaling to peak Maki, so this is irrelevant.
His point is to show how great speed is portrayed within the manga, Naoya's speed affects the area several times, Hakari's and others do not. Gege had mentioned how he wanted to portray the doppler effect and yet we haven't seen this with Hakari at all.
The houses he destroys are the one's he rams through, and we see this same Naoya reach mach 3 speeds and not cause this same degree of environmental damage. Doesn't seem like a consistent metric.
Here is how the correct calculation would look like (I made this really quickly):

The height of Hakari's face = 0.191meters (180px).
Distance between Hakari's face and the lightning bolt = 53px (0.056 meters).

The height of Hakari's face = 0.191meters (51px).
Distance to the end of his face = 25px (0.056 meters).

Meaning, Hakari's speed would more or less be the same speed as the lightning (I don't have any say in the feat, just had a problem with the calculation you guys were using).
this is also similar to what I got, where I got it to only Mach 1000 and other users to Mach 500, idk where Mach 6000 comes from.
Uraume wasn't off-guard in the slightest. They jumped in front of Choso, then imbued their hands with Cursed Energy while Choso charged Convergence. Then, Choso fired Piercing Blood and Uraume blocked it with their palm, remarking that the technique is fast.
Uraume was literally looking down at the ground and then we later on get direct confirmation that Uraume does hold back against people.
You're missing my point.

Naoya is an example of great speed in the series, Hakari is not and he is not portrayed to be of great speed. I am not arguing for constant visuals of speed, I am arguing for the lack of emphasis of his great speed entirely.

Naoya - Great speed is shown and recognized by the narrator and characters around.
Naobito - Great speed is shown and recognized by the narrator and characters around.
Gojo - Stated to be the fastest and is shown to have great speed, even if this happens to be due to Blue.
Toji/Maki - Great speed is shown and recognized by characters around.
Hakari - Calc.
Hakari in his first showing was perception blitzing sorcerers like its nothing and would later be compared to Maki by Kenjaku, Hakari considered one of their best assets by Yuta, and with Gojo implying Yuta and Hakari are the peak of the students. Hakari is definitely a top tier narratively, to deny this on the basis that he doesn't have a sonic boom or whatever is absurd.
 
Yeah, Uraume is not 6000x faster than PB
For context, Naoya went from Mach 1 to Mach 3 and completely blitzed Maki
A 6000x faster character should statue PB regardless of how low their expectations were
Gojo/Sukuna? Maybe
Not Uraume
Even when they comment on the speed of the technique
You'll have better luck arguing that they got 6000x faster between Shibuya and Shinjuku
 
Yeah, Uraume is not 6000x faster than PB
For context, Naoya went from Mach 1 to Mach 3 and completely blitzed Maki
A 6000x faster character should statue PB regardless of how low their expectations were
Gojo/Sukuna? Maybe
Not Uraume
Even when they comment on the speed of the technique
You'll have better luck arguing that they got 6000x faster between Shibuya and Shinjuku
Uraume ~ Hakari = Mach 500 >> Mach 3 = Naoya >> Pre-Awakening Maki

Where's the contradiction here? Uraume was off-guard AND holding back and she still blocked it whilst it was right next to her face, displaying superior speed to it.
Because the lightning blitzed him.
Yes, someone who dodged a technique was... blitzed by the technique... do words have meaning anymore?
 
Not Kashimo's since it's compared to a sure-hit, also he began dodging it whilst it was already incredibly close to him, hence why it can't be blitzed.
Its compared to a sure hit because of how it works, it is not an actual sure hit. And go reread what M3x already pointed out, he should've been reacted before it got close to to him.

Naoya is the benchmark that holds down the mid-tiers in the verse showing his great speed and power, and Hakari is a character who is constantly regarded as a top tier if not the #1 top tier at the time. With this tier having a fight and shown to be relative to lightning in one fight and in the very next fight after we are shown a benchmark in Naoya to surpass to start entering that top tiers of the verse. With it after that showing various feats far above Naoya after it.

Maybe having these two fights is trying to say something together and not separate competing elements. Maybe showing lightning top tiers and Mach 3 mid-tiers together is saying something, like a gap in level and abilities. hmmm
That's a great interpretation but it has little to do with my point yet again.

The houses he destroys are the one's he rams through, and we see this same Naoya reach mach 3 speeds and not cause this same degree of environmental damage. Doesn't seem like a consistent metric.
No is talking about houses destroyed, I'm talking about glass being shattered. And damn, my point is not about the visuals lmao.

Hakari in his first showing was perception blitzing sorcerers like its nothing and would later be compared to Maki by Kenjaku, Hakari considered one of their best assets by Yuta, and with Gojo implying Yuta and Hakari are the peak of the students. Hakari is definitely a top tier narratively, to deny this on the basis that he doesn't have a sonic boom or whatever is absurd.
Who denied it???

You both are genuinely not reading a thing I've said holy shit.
 
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