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Joker vs Sailor Moon

DarkGrath

DarkGrath

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Bumparoony
 
Joker bypasses SM's resistance to Soul Manip with Almighty attacks and her soul is destroyed. He also has physical-based sleep hax, as well as his death hax, which SM doesn't resist.

What does Usagi have as wincons?
 
If I remember correctly, Eternal SM has thought-based Void Manipulation that could be used as a one-shot, but I don't remember if she opens with it. I'll take a look through her profile in a bit.
 
Alright, just took a good long look through her profile. Here's a few things I noticed.

SM has some pretty good resistance to Soul Manipulation, Death Manipulation (which I would think nullifies Jokers insta-kill attacks) and Power Null. So she at least resists most of Jokers best abilities.

She also does have existence erasure and void manip, though I'll admit I have no idea if she would use it in character.
 
All Persona attacks Undertale your soul and Joker starts with Sinful Shell which is an almighty attack (aka it negs resistance)
 
Actually, looking at their AP more carefully, this would probably be a one-shot for Joker through AP alone. I'm going to change this to Jokers End-Game key, before Satanael, in which he only has a slight AP advantage.
 
Done. They now have relatively equal AP.

Joker with the help of the Phantom Thieves (all Low 2-C) managed to beat a being that very casually performed a regular Low 2-C feat, and proved a challenge for all of them at once.

Sailor Moon successfully casually reflected an attack from Chaos, who very casually performed a baseline Low 2-C feat.

Not sure who has the AP advantage exactly, but it should be pretty fair now. Joker no longer has Sinful Shell either, but he has other potential win-cons.
 
Solacis said:
Megidolaon still Undertales her soul into oblivion.
Click to expand...
Could you elaborate? I am aware that Almighty attacks are a form of resistance negation, but there are two problems here.

1: Sailor Moon has resistance to Soul Manip, which would lessen the effects of pretty much all of Jokers attacks if I understand correctly. 2: Given that the resistance to Soul Manip for enemies in Persona is still enough that Almighty attacks can't just one-shot everything, it's clear that the resistance negation of Almighty attacks has some pretty blunt limits.

Is there something here I misunderstand?

Also, as mentioned before, Void Manip and Existence Erasure for Sailor Moon is still a viable one-shot win-con.
 
Almighty negates all resistances except for raw durability. The cosmology revision will probably feature this issue, but for now, it's classed as resistance negation, and should bypass resistance to soul manipulation. Shadows and Personas are a form of abstract existences anyway, so it can be attributed to that.
 
He does. Even though it should be Mid-Godly regen because he was clearly erased even though he came back but whatever
 
If Almighty attacks is a form of Soul Manip, and also a way of negating Soul Manip Resistance, than it should one-shot regardless of Durability. Durability doesn't have an effect on Soul Manip. If Soul Manip is used and the person doesn't have any resistance to it (or in this case, the person can't use their resistance) then it's a one-shot. The fact that beings like Shadows aren't one-shifted by just any almighty attacks means there is a blatant contradiction. The only reasonable way for that to be explained is if it doesn't negate resistance to Soul Manip. After all, Almighty attacks don't deal any more damage than regular attacks. They are just impossible to nullify.
 
That can be easily explained by the fact that Shadows are abstract mental constructs and probably don't need a soul to exist, and that Persona-users have a form of resistance to resistance negation. But still, I'll concede that we'll just not count this as a wincon until it can be discussed by the other knowledgeables.

He still has sleep and death hax as other viable win conditions, though. The latter of which he's much more likely to use.
 
Sailor Moon also has resistance to death manipulation, though admittedly I don't know the specifics. Also, it seems like sleep hax would still work (at least, I'm pretty sure). I'm still willing to agree that Almighty attacks are pretty damn useful, and could cause some serious damage, I'm just doubtful it would specifically be a one-shot.

Even so, I'm the OP, so I'm not going to be voting anyway. Besides, even though it might sound like I'm trying to argue for Sailor Moon right now, I honestly have no idea who has the edge here. It seems pretty close. Have you come to your own conclusions, Solacis?
 
Joker could sleep hax and knock her out, while I'm not seeing any win conditions for Sailor Moon for the moment.

I'm voting Joker wins with high difficulty.
 
Very well, I'll count your vote. :)
 
Vote counted! I'll take a look through both Sailor Moons and Rens pages in a bit, I'll try and find the most likely win-cons for both of them.
 
Sailor Moon also can Powernull powernull, so I dont' believe the resistance negation would work on her.

Sailor Moon has intensive Death Manipulation hax, including being unaffected by passive death manipulation, and bypassing death induced by fate manipulation.

As for the sleep, that could work, but the Silver Crystal can not only wake her up but act on it's own and protect her while she's sleeping. She can also use it while in a coma.

All her attacks, have automatic existence erasure and bypass midgodly
 
Persona Almighty is still SMT Almighty afaik, so the resistance neg should still be >>> Moon's powernulling
 
You still have to explain why it wouldn't be affected by Sailor Moon's anti-powernull.

Also, on jokers profile, it says Almighty attacks negate elemental resistances, soul/spirit isn't an element in Persona is it?
 
Almighty attacks would also bypass the omnipotent orb which nulls every other attack in the game
 
Yes, I understand that. But the claim is that Almighty attacks would bypass all of Sailor Moon's resistances, but the profile says it only does that for elemental attacks.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Yes, I understand that. But the claim is that Almighty attacks would bypass all of Sailor Moon's resistances, but the profile says it only does that for elemental attacks.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's what I've been saying. It shouldn't nullify Sailor Moons Soul Resistance, since it's explicitly shown in-game to still be subject to the Soul Resistance of enemies.
 
Alright, heres a list of all the advantages both of them have over eachother I could find.

Joker:

  • Attack reflection with Tetrakarn and Makarakarn would almost certainly work, and Sailor Moon might not even realise that her attack is going to be reflected until it happens at least once, allowing him to deal serious damage casually at least once.
  • His resistance to Soul Manip, Existence Erasure and Time Stop nullifies most of Sailor Moon's best moves.
  • He has a much wider variety of in-character moves that Sailor Moon would not be able to do much to protect against beyond Soul Resistance and Durability.
  • Joker's statistic amp/reduction, along with his separate damage boost and damage reduction can massively increase his stats and massively decrease Sailor Moons with only some time to prepare.
Sailor Moon:

  • While minor, her mid-regen could certainly give an edge over the indeterminate yet small regen of Joker.
  • She likely has the AP and Durability advantage. Chaos and the Holy Grail should be relatively equal in AP, due to both of them having their tiers through a casual Low 2-C feat. Joker needed the help of all the Phantom Thieves to beat the Holy Grail, while Sailor Moon easily countered Chaos' attacks alone. Probably not major, but a noteworthy AP advantage none the less.
  • Her type 8 immortality through the Sailor Crystal wouldn't give too much of an advantage, since it can be broken, but it would likely take Joker a while to realise the problem.
  • Sailor Moon's Reactive Power Level could give her an advantage if Joker relied on statistic manipulation.
  • She can use power nullification to remove Joker's abilities, though I'm not sure if she would rely on it. She also has resistance to power nullifcation and mind manipulation herself, so ailments will not work.
  • Her resistance to Soul Manip and Death Manipulation would allow her to survive some of Joker's stronger attacks.
Again, as mentioned, since I am the OP I will not be voting.
 
Alright well Usagi seems to have the Ap advantage, and while Joker has almighty attacks that can bypass her resistances, I see her killing Joker before he kills her.

Usagi has a huge range advantage to start off, plus the fact she has tons of hax that Joker does not resist (Such as Sealing, Power Null, BFR, Time Stop etc.) She also has reactive power level, so should Joker go up and try to hit her she would just get stronger and stomp him eventually.

Tldr Sailor Moon is my vote
 
Vote counted, though if I remember correctly Joker does actually have resistance to time manip.
 
What exactly was his resistance to time manip based on?
 
Well, that clarifies it quite nicely. It might be better to specify that he has resistance to Time Stop instead of Time Manip on his profile for these kinds of things. Well, in that case that does get rid of one major ability for Sailor Moon. I'll add that to the list of advantages.
 
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3167000?useskin=oasis

I noticed Solacis made this thread not too long ago. Since it revolves heavily around an integral part of this match (SM's Existence Erasure and Jokers Resistance to it) should we wait for some more input on it to continue the match?
 
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