JoJo and Verse Equalization

[TriforcePower1]

This is a problem we have had for some time, and I think we absolutely need to find a solution to this. I'm not proposing anything, just creating a thread where we can actually discuss this.

Souls, Ghosts and Stands
How do we equalize them? In JoJo, the former two are different from the latter. This is made particularly evident by the fact that ghosts can have Stands, like Yoshihiro Kira, Kira Yoshikage's father, who's a ghost that possesses a Stand, clearly showing that the two of them are different things.

Then that raises the question: WoG states several times that only Stand Users, or those that have the potential to use one but they just didn't awake it yet, can see Stands, and that only Stands can hurt other Stands. As we know that ghosts can affect other ghosts in JoJo, as we see in the alleyway scene with Kira, Reimi and Arnold, does that mean that being able to affect Souls =/= Being able to affect Stands, because, if ghosts could affect Stands, that would break one of the first rules about Stands? Admittedly, it wouldn't be the first time it gets broken (the alleyway hands thing destroyed effortlessly Killer Queen), but it still raises the question if the "only stands can affect stands" rule is respected here or if it's broken.

Funny Valentine and Paradoxes
Funny Valentine's paradox power comes from abusing a concept in the JoJo verse that, if two things from different universe touch or get closed to each other, they get paradoxed out of existence (okay, that's not exactly what happens, but you get the point). How exactly do we treat this power? Do we assume it just doesn't work on characters that have specifically shown to be able to resist getting paradoxed out of existence in a verse with a similar mechanic, have shown to simply be able to interact with parallel versions of themselves, regardless of the verse's rules, or something else entirely?

 

[AstralKing7]

I think this site jsut considers stands as souls

 

[TriforcePower1]

But it's just wrong. That's the problem.

 

[AstralKing7]

Yeah it looks like it is indeed. I myself haven't got to the ghost part but I did know that only stands and stand users could affect each other

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Stands are more like fighting spirit than souls. We know this because there are dead people with stands. You can't be a soul and have a soul.

 

[AstralKing7]

Or probably just the human will or a souls will

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Right, resolve/will.

 

[TriforcePower1]

What do you think about Funny's paradoxes?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Not sure honestly. You should ask Promestein to come comment.

 

[Eficiente]

I'm yet to see a point to make those paradoxes get pass feats of immunity to the same process.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Stands are more like fighting spirit than souls. We know this because there are dead people with stands. You can't be a soul and have a soul.

> Bleach

> Zanpakuto

If you're speaking generally ofc.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Well, in that scenario we're told that the swords are their souls.

 

[Promestein]

I don't care about ghost/Stand shit. I don't think ghosts can harm Stands; the hands in the alleyway are a very special case. They can separate your Stand from your soul; they're clearly not normal ghosts if they're even ghosts at all. But it doesn't matter.

If any given character has interacted with an alternate self Funny Valentine doesn't affect them. You can probably apply those standards to everyone else in the verse. For example, Goku interacts with Goku Black just fine, so the two of them, at the least, are immune to Valentine's paradoxing (along with the Zamasus).

 

[TriforcePower1]

But that's kind of the main thing we need to discuss...

Yeah, but how do we consider stuff like that? Goku didn't resist getting paradoxed, it's just that his verse doesn't work like JoJo's. If he were put in a verse that erases parallel universes counterparts, would he survive?

 

[Antoniofer]

Iirc Stands were the manifestation of one's fighting spirit (although, I don't quite remember), they aren't considered ghost, not even by the verse standards.

 

[Dark649]

For example the stands and ghosts used by Justice can be seen as are different, the stands can also project an Aura.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

The entire "stands equilization" problem was already solved and put onto a blog .

Straight from Araki, they are literally defined as "invisible spirit energy". The way this energy is stored or conveyed varies from person to person, that's why you can have a gun as a stand whilst also having a punch ghost as a stand.

(If that spirit energy is stored in a tangible material object, everyone will be able to see and touch, stand user or not. If that energy creates its own object/body, then its restricted to stand users only.)

When it comes to interacting with other verses we just have to ask "does the character have the ability to interact with spirits or can they use a form of spirit energy?", if the answer is yes then they basically fit right in with the definition of a stand, and should be able to see them accordingly.

Ghosts and spirits are synonymous, so the reason Rohan and friends can see Reimi is because they have the ability to see "invisible spirit energy", which basically describes what ghosts are. We know if you don't have a stand you can't see Reimi or ghosts in JoJo because she stood in the alleyway for days at a time and nobody had noticed her. We also know this because of Deadman's Questions, where ghost Kira is also invisible to non-stand users.

(P.S: Stands and ghosts are basically the same thing, one is just a lost wandering soul the other is generated by their user and typically forced to obey their commands.)

TL;DR - Stands can be seen and interacted with by anything on a spiritual level. Otherwise, they are entirely exempt from traditional harm.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

I was told before that for the Funny Valentine case, unless a character has a specific reason not to be affected by the paradox (like only existing in one universe/acausality, something of the sort), everyone would be treated as they would if it took place in JoJo.

That means if you have no counter to it, you'll still be paradoxed, regardless if you met your past self or other universe self within your own series.

 

[Eficiente]

Yeah, but how do we consider stuff like that? Goku didn't resist getting paradoxed, it's just that his verse doesn't work like JoJo's. If he were put in a verse that erases parallel universes counterparts, would he survive?

This notion is false. How can you affirm that it is the verse - being in that place - and not something that comes out of the characters themselves - a way in which their bodies are made? This downplays hundreds of powers to "character doesn't have x ability, they are from a verse that gives them x ability" with no evidence.

 

[Antoniofer]

I don't think time paradoxes are possible in DB, if someone makes a change in the past it just split a new timeline. Personally, I would consider paradoxes as impossible for the standard: there's two characters, X and Y, X travel back in time to kill a weaker version of Y. Focus in X, it kill younger Y and then battle is finished; focus in Y, X abandoned the fight and the battle ends.

 

[Eficiente]

Future Trunks can meet with baby Trunks, so even without how their timelines work Valentine would still not paradox anyone there. Just pointing that out.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

But that's not how we treat it with VE. Trunks has no specific ability to resist the paradox, just that his universe that he resides in works a little differently. In battles, we usually treat their fighting ground as a composite universe (like in SBA how it says it can be day for one fighter and night for one). If Valentine paradoxes him, Trunks will be erased.

The only characters who are not erased are those who have specific abilities to resist it. Characters who don't have a specific ability except "not how it works whre im from hurr durr" are erased without prejudice, because they're not in their home universe during vs fights.

 

[Eficiente]

This notion is false. How can you affirm that it is the verse - being in that place - and not something that comes out of the characters themselves - a way in which their bodies are made? This downplays hundreds of powers to "character doesn't have x ability, they are from a verse that gives them x ability" with no evidence.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

I've thought about it and my answer is this: when it comes to fiction, paradoxes and anything to do with time is highly inconsistent.

We're told by Funny Valentine that no the same person can meet themselves, otherwise they are erased as a consequence. It doesn't say that D4C does it, just that it's a natural side effect.

Trunks and Goku meeting themselves or whatever is a direct contradiction to this. Similarly, it's never said that they resisted or have an ability to do so, it's just implied that it's a natural side effect of reality.

You're right - it could be that Trunks and Goku have some sort of untold acausality or ability, but since this is never directly explained or expressed by the series, another possible explanation is that it's just inconsistent in comparison to other fictions and it's a direct consequence of their home universe. It could be both.

If Funny Valentine tells us that people get erased when they meet themselves AND he makes you meet yourself, I see no reason why meeting yourself before "in my home universe" is valid reasoning for not being deleted, especially when it could be explained through inconsistency between fictions and interpretations of how THEIR universe functions. I do see that a character having that explicit ability would be immune (because if Araki accepted and acknowledged it, he'd likely have Funny Valentine's ability be useless as a response) but I don't see why they would for any other reason.

That's a hard question, I feel like I know it's something to do with the universe and not the characters ability but I'm not sure how to explain that.

 

[Elizhaa]

I proposed just making characters that have Extrasensory Perception being able to see Stands.

We have done this act for Bleach souls who have Invisibility.

Besides, Verse Equalization does not give Extra Abilities like Extrasensory Perception nor Non-Physical Interaction.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

I'm aganst that proposal, unless said extrasensory perception has the specific ability to detect the spiritual as well. Nothing about the ability is specific to being spiritual, it's about detecting vague energy signatures and is not described as all encompassing.

 

[Elizhaa]

Also, vs-battle characters should have Non-Physical Interaction to affect stands via Standard Battle Assumptions/ Verse Equalizations.

I believe characters in the verse already have both Non-Physical Interaction and Extrasensory Perception the abilities anyway.

 

[Promestein]

I'm fine with these suggestions.

 

[TriforcePower1]

@Hierophant So, are you saying that being able to harm ghosts is enough to be able to harm Stands?

 

[Antoniofer]

Isn't like time paradoxes are inconsistent, is that is a concept entirely fictional and any writer interprete it as they please.

I also agree with anyone capable to see spirits should be able to see stands; anyone capable ro interact with spirits should be able to interact with stands (minor note, spirits =/= ghosts, although all ghosts are spirits, not all spirits are ghost).

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

On a general basis yes, but we would need to know that ghosts in their verse are spiritually based, not psychic or any other weird shenanigans.

VE does not make all creatures named "dragons" dragons (especially since I've seen some weeeird creatures called dragons), it does make all creatures who share similar traits to one though, if that makes any sense.

 

[Elizhaa]

On a general basis yes, but we would need to know that ghosts in their verse are spiritually based, not psychic or any other weird shenanigans.
VE does not make all creatures named "dragons" dragons (especially since I've seen some weeeird creatures called dragons), it does make all creatures who share similar traits to one though, if that makes any sense.

We have Verse equalization, to solve this problem.

Verse equalization: Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

@Antoniofer

There's nothing to agree about it really, it's just analysis and basic extraE.polation.

@Elizhaa

I'm fine with NPI interacting with stands on a general basis, again we just need proof that said NPI can interact with ghosts or the spiritual. I can't touch someone like The Vision, have NPI as a result, and then say I can touch stands.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Isn't like time paradoxes are inconsistent, is that is a concept entirely fictional and any writer interprete it as they please.

We aren't talking about TIME paradoxes. In the JoJo verse, you cannot meet the yourself of a different universe, or otherwise both get destroyed (think of matter and antimatter). It has nothing to do about time travels and such.

 

[Elizhaa]

HierophantDeluxe, in most case, Non-Physical Interaction's baseline is bypassing Intangibility from Ghost/Spirits or Intangible beings, so it will affect a ghost or spirits.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

You misread or ignored my argument, I'm saying not all things named "ghosts" can be equalized to "ghosts" in another verse. If I called every feline a "ghost" in my verse, would it now be equalized to an actual spirit in your verse? Of course not.

If you're saying that VE can allow people to fight stands or something well that's wrong too. Stands are a supernatural energy, but they are not required to fight stand users. There are people without stands who fight stand users within JoJo all the time.

 

[TriforcePower1]

"All the time"

Aren't Gyro and Wekapipo literally the only two guys without stands to have fought stands? Unless you consider Hayato and Stray Cat vs Kira.

 

[Elizhaa]

You misread or ignored my argument, I'm saying not all things named "ghosts" can be equalized to "ghosts" in another verse. If I called every feline a "ghost" in my verse, would it now be equalized to an actual spirit in your verse? Of course not.
If you're saying that VE can allow people to fight stands or something well that's wrong too. Stands are a supernatural energy, but they are not required to fight stand users. There are people without stands who fight stand users within JoJo all the time.

Non-Physical Interaction was not really viewed as a good feat back then, for it to be added to profiles.

Now, there are over 1,500 characters with the ability

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

Maybe all the time is an exaggeration, but there's also Ringo vs Johnny and Gyro, Hayato vs Stray Cat, Nukesaku vs Star Platinum (lol), etc etc. I'm sure there is more too.

My point is seeing or touching stands is not a requirement to fight or kill a stand user. I'm pretty sure most stand users can actually be taken out with by a sniper or any gun in general. What is Steely Dan going to do when I shoot him in the back? What about a grenade at Yellow Temperance? If I took a shotgun and killed Strength? If I called in an airstrike on almost anyone? Nothing.

 

[AstralKing7]

^youve missed the whole point of this thread