John Wick VS Loid Forger: An Assassin fights a Spy (11-6-0)

[Cimafranca133]

So Wick is a tiny bit higher.
Ngl, I think I'm leaning toward Wick, Loid has some advantages like enhanced senses and insane deduction and analytical skills, but in terms of actual skill in regards to things like firearms, hand to hand, and all the more straightforward combat applicable stuff, Wick has displayed more better and diverse feats.

Vote Counted,

John Wick: 2

Loid Forger: 4

Rick Astley: 0

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

So Wick is a tiny bit higher.
Ngl, I think I'm leaning toward Wick, Loid has some advantages like enhanced senses and insane deduction and analytical skills, but in terms of actual skill in regards to things like firearms, hand to hand, and all the more straightforward combat applicable stuff, Wick has displayed more better and diverse feats.

I actually wanted to say that regarding John skill gun-play who's being higher than what Loid can do, but in the end Loid still had his versatility so i think him can take down John with some of difficulty

but not through bulletproof glass

Debatable, but right now i'm kinda tired so i'm going to bother you lel

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

No way that Loid can win this. He is mainly someone who is stealthy, consequently his combat skill feats will be much lower

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

...Actually after thinking it again, you're right about the combat skill
And now i'm thinking it again, main arguments for @Expectro2000xxx isn't make sense either by using anime logic lmao, yeah we need to start from scratch now

 

[Cimafranca133]

...Actually after thinking it again, you're right about the combat skill
And now i'm thinking it again, main arguments for @Expectro2000xxx isn't make sense either by using anime logic lmao, yeah we need to start from scratch now

Ok, here are the respect threads for John and Loid
John Respect Thread:

Loid Respect Thread:

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

he have this feat for example of defeat 38 dudes in less than 10 seconds

These soldiers are the "best mens" of a mafia btw

 

[Cimafranca133]

No way that Loid can win this. He is mainly someone who is stealthy, consequently his combat skill feats will be much lower

These soldiers are the "best mens" of a mafia btw

I assume you vote for John

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Yeah sure

 

[Cimafranca133]

Yeah sure

John Wick: 3

Loid Forger: 4

Rick Astley: 0

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

No way that Loid can win this. He is mainly someone who is stealthy, consequently his combat skill feats will be much lower

By that logic solid snake would have shit combat feats you know?

These soldiers are the "best mens" of a mafia btw

You realize that this was done in more than then seconds as Loid feat and using in great part Wick stealth ability (in which Loid was surpass him) right?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

By that logic solid snake would have shit combat feats you know?

Loid is not snake

You realize that this was done in more than then seconds as Loid feat

Most of the guys that Loid defeat was with like, one punch. Theres basically inexistent skill movements in the scene. So I wouldn't call such thing as a "skill feat"

and using in great part Wick stealth ability

Yeah, sure

 

[Chariot190]

By that logic solid snake would have shit combat feats you know?

Yeah but Snake also has like 400+ combat feats and a few hundred statements and accolades.
And throws hands with dudes who have a comparable amount as well.

Loid can throw hands, in fact he very much is super skilled, but Wick has like 10x as many feats and showings, obviously the more that you have, the higher chance it's gonna add up, Loid might get up there too as the manga continues, but, at the moment, Wick outclasses by quite a bit.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

...Actually after thinking it again, you're right about the combat skill
And now i'm thinking it again, main arguments for @Expectro2000xxx isn't make sense either by using anime logic lmao, yeah we need to start from scratch now

The point was that thanks to be an anime/manga, the feats can be more unrealistic compared to a more realistic franchise like John Wick (which consist mainly of live action stuff), so the anime/manga have it more easy to make more crazy things.

Like thanks to be an anime/manga is that Loid could do acrobatics like this or this (the second one while druged) while John don't have thing like that (the closest feat is from a comic, which do to the medium allow to do more things that series with irl humans). Thanks to be an anime/manga Loid have feats like shoting down two persons while in mid air sending flying another three mans (and defeating in that same scene 38 mans with weapons in 10 seconds mixing physical combat with gunmanship), shot a dog in a way that the dog didn't get hurt while losing his velt, shot several projectiles mid air so they end hiting his target over dozen of meters away and things like that which John moves can't really replicate (the closest thing are John defeating only with a gun 7 persons in 6 seconds, kill 6 armed guys in 11 seconds, take down various people in a chruch with a rifle, shot were a doctor tell him, and kill with a sniper various targets in like 12 seconds, everything impressive but I don't see them quite as crazy a the anime ones).

Thanks to be an anime/manga Loid have analytical/processing feats like the parry high speed projectiles based in the eyes and hand movement of the other side, analyze the contents of books by passing the pages at high speed, regain his composture in 0.1 seconds, penguin feat, while I think John don't really have analytical/processing things comparable.

Thanks to be an anime/manga Loid have sense feats like notice that people look at him, their exact location and intentions, notice a minimal displacement of an object, a small symbol in a cluttered environment, notice listening devices as if nothing, notice someone disguised, notice a sniper inside a ventilation duct, noticed a colorless and odorless gas and more things like that while John don't really have that type of things as far I remember.

And not gonna even talk about the stealth side since is pretty easy to see how ridiculously Loid feats, and how much better he is than John in that aspect.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Loid Forgering a new ass for John wick FRA

 

[Chariot190]

shoting down two persons while in mid air sending flying another three mans (and defeating in that same scene 38 mans with weapons in 10 seconds mixing physical combat with gunmanship), shot a dog in a way that the dog didn't get hurt while losing his velt, shot several projectiles mid air so they end hiting his target over dozen of meters away

What?
The dog feat isn't good, the dog is so close to him that having even a bit of anime-esque skill would enable you to aim and hit it given you don't even have to account for tremble, air, temp and more at such a distance. Especially when it's coming straight at you and you have ample time to aim like he did.
Shooting two dudes in the head while having kicked other dudes isn't impressive, it's literally just aiming and shooting while mid attack.

The only thing of note there would be the ricochet, which I don't quite recall being in the manga anyhow.

Also it's already established Loid likely has better analytical feats, but that only really helps with predicting trajectory and what not, good chunk of his intel skills don't quite apply in a combat scenario.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

What?
The dog feat isn't good, the dog is so close to him that having even a bit of anime-esque skill would enable you to aim and hit it given you don't even have to account for tremble, air, temp and more at such a distance. Especially when it's coming straight at you and you have ample time to aim like he did.
Shooting two dudes in the head while having kicked other dudes isn't impressive, it's literally just aiming and shooting while mid attack.

It is impressive because is a fast target approaching without really giving much time to react, is more harder when is considered how Loid also needed to aim and calculate the shot so they didn't hurt at all the dog (since he didn't wanted to hurt him the same way John don't want to hurt dogs).

Is impressive because he took down five different enemies in a instant while mixing cqc and markmanship in the air which increase the manoeuvrability needed, the impressive thing of the scene increase when you remember how he calculating thing to also take down another 33 appraching enemies which are shoting at him, everything in 10 seconds. The closest feat John have is defeating the 7 dudes in 6 seconds, and that was only using a gun from a distance, without mixing it with cqc.

The only thing of note there would be the ricochet, which I don't quite recall being in the manga anyhow.

Also it's already established Loid likely has better analytical feats, but that only really helps with predicting trajectory and what not, good chunk of his intel skills don't quite apply in a combat scenario.

The anime feats are fine to use since they were considered secondary canon.

It apply though, it can help him to dodge better, aim better, predict better, and think more throughly the things. I also apply in combat because those feats were only possible thanks to the skill he have obtained as twilight.

Even if we considered John somewhat superior to Loid in pure combat skill, the fact that Loid have so many other advantages (acrobatics, senses, stealth, analytical/processing and LS, the LS actually matter a lot since John use a lot of grappling moves in cqc so he would be in a overwhelming disadvantage there) mean that Loid can compensate even that difference. So in general I believe Loid have higher chances to pull a win than John.

 

[Chariot190]

It is impressive because is a fast target approaching without really giving much time to react, is more harder when is considered how Loid also needed to aim and calculate the shot so they didn't hurt at all the dog (since he didn't wanted to hurt him the same way John don't want to hurt dogs).

He's supersonic dude, and that's a dog, it really isn't all that fast. And it was mid-jump, meaning a maximum descent of 9.8mps, against his reactions? It may as well be slow motion.
And yes, it IS impressive, but not impressive here. He shot a moving few cm wide target from about a few feet away, which while good, isn't as good as you think in the grand scheme of things, it's so close he doesn't have to account for ANY outside effects to the bullet trajectory and so close that he doesn't have to account for the dog's movement and descent as it's not gonna move at all by the time the bullet reaches it. Plus the dog was coming straight at him in an easy, straightforward, trajectory.
It's good, but not good here.

Is impressive because he took down five different enemies in a instant while mixing cqc and markmanship in the air which increase the manoeuvrability needed, the impressive thing of the scene increase when you remember how he calculating thing to also take down another 33 appraching enemies which are shoting at him, everything in 10 seconds. The closest feat John have is defeating the 7 dudes in 6 seconds, and that was only using a gun from a distance, without mixing it with cqc.

He's also way stronger than them, way faster, can literally dodge bullets, etc.
I'm talking about the actual, pure, technicality of what he did. Shooting 20 dudes in a row in like a second is good, but shooting a dude between the eyes from a kilometer with one placed shot is even better. You're focused on quantity, not quality.

The anime feats are fine to use since they were considered secondary canon.

Is there an author statement?

It apply though, it can help him to dodge better, aim better, predict better, and think more throughly the things. I also apply in combat because those feats were only possible thanks to the skill he have obtained as twilight.

Except the majority quite literally don't apply in combat.
He has skills that do help him do that, but half of what's being posted isn't apart of it. He can predict moves and trajectory based on arm movements and motion, cool, that's usable yes. But him using deductive skills and knowing shit about penguins to properly figure out their needs doesn't have a combat application.

Even if we considered John somewhat superior to Loid in pure combat skill, the fact that Loid have so many other advantages (acrobatics, senses, stealth, analytical/processing and LS, the LS actually matter a lot since John use a lot of grappling moves in cqc so he would be in a overwhelming disadvantage there) mean that Loid can compensate even that difference. So in general I believe Loid have higher chances to pull a win than John.

Acrobatics are useful, but speed is equal, doing cool flips won't help you dodge a bullet unless you aim dodge, which, admittedly, Loid can do, but he can't do it forever.
Stealth? Has Loid ever vanished in the middle of a fight, I don't recall him doing so.
Processing is a speed thing. Analyses he does have though.
LS though, hmm, that is a good point, that might actually be quite bad for John if he goes for grapples, it might **** him over.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

He's supersonic dude, and that's a dog, it really isn't all that fast. And it was mid-jump, meaning a maximum descent of 9.8mps, against his reactions? It may as well be slow motion.
And yes, it IS impressive, but not impressive here. He shot a moving few cm wide target from about a few feet away, which while good, isn't as good as you think in the grand scheme of things, it's so close he doesn't have to account for ANY outside effects to the bullet trajectory and so close that he doesn't have to account for the dog's movement and descent as it's not gonna move at all by the time the bullet reaches it. Plus the dog was coming straight at him in an easy, straightforward, trajectory.
It's good, but not good here.

Considering how the dog was a trained one able to do acrobatics like jump between walls and the fact that could follow Loid through the terrain without eating his dust do to a speed difference, I would consider the dog faster than the irl dog.

He's also way stronger than them, way faster, can literally dodge bullets, etc.
I'm talking about the actual, pure, technicality of what he did. Shooting 20 dudes in a row in like a second is good, but shooting a dude between the eyes from a kilometer with one placed shot is even better. You're focused on quantity, not quality.

Considering that John is also way stronger and faster than many of the people he face I wouldn't consider that something to which discredit the feat.

I mean, there is also the coordination between his physical movements to both attack and dodge while also coordinating his shots, this while also taking in mind the rest of the guys. It also display a bit of his agility/manoeuvrability in a pure combat centered scenary with all the jumps, kicks and so.

Is there an author statement?

Except the majority quite literally don't apply in combat.
He has skills that do help him do that, but half of what's being posted isn't apart of it. He can predict moves and trajectory based on arm movements and motion, cool, that's usable yes. But him using deductive skills and knowing shit about penguins to properly figure out their needs doesn't have a combat application.



Acrobatics are useful, but speed is equal, doing cool flips won't help you dodge a bullet unless you aim dodge, which, admittedly, Loid can do, but he can't do it forever.
Stealth? Has Loid ever vanished in the middle of a fight, I don't recall him doing so.
Processing is a speed thing. Analyses he does have though.
LS though, hmm, that is a good point, that might actually be quite bad for John if he goes for grapples, it might **** him over.

From what I remember there was a thread deeming it usable since the anime is really faithful to the manga and don't contradict it in any way (is actually supported and have a logical sense with the things of the manga, like Yor poison).

The penguin feat is more so to show how he can precisely predict their behavior, movement along with show how he can make every fish fall exactly where he want.

A lot of the feats were done with things of comparable speed to him, John is also completely unable to do that sort of things which in fact show that at least in the pure manoeuvrability aspect John is less skilled than Loid. I would say that I remember Loid using the stealth in combat, but right now I'm on phone so can't give scans, though considering how they are in New York isn't hard to imagine Loid using the surroundings, the crowd and disguises to his advantage. It show that his thinking ability is better than John though since he don't have feats of a similar nature or comparable level.

Another thing I remembered, John lost one of his finger which probably will bother him.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

John Wick FRA.

 

[Chariot190]

Considering how the dog was a trained one able to do acrobatics like jump between walls and the fact that could follow Loid through the terrain without eating his dust do to a speed difference, I would consider the dog faster than the irl dog.

Not how it works. Are trained acrobatic humans faster than normal humans? No, they're trained and acrobatic, doesn't suddenly make them super fast. And that dog is evidently not that fast as Loid literally has a whole monologue to himself while it's mid lunge. Which also, the dog being trained doesn't effect the gravity acceleration. Also Loid doesn't have supersonic movement speed, though he would have superhuman movement speed, based on uh, outpacing a trained dog

Considering that John is also way stronger and faster than many of the people he face I wouldn't consider that something to which discredit the feat.

Nah that's perfectly fine, I'm actively excluding any feat that involves him just overpowering or blitzing dudes, because obviously that isn't skill. I'm more looking at things where he never made contact, and if he did make contact, what did he do when he did it? Was it practical? An example of martial prowess? Etc. Obviously betaing the shit out of however many dudes doesn't matter if you just kick them in the face and they fall flat. How you do it is more important.

I mean, there is also the coordination between his physical movements to both attack and dodge while also coordinating his shots, this while also taking in mind the rest of the guys. It also display a bit of his agility/manoeuvrability in a pure combat centered scenary with all the jumps, kicks and so.

That's true, but that's also not as impressive as I was outlining above. And still, merely throwing a kick and shooting someone a handful of meters away, while skilled, isn't some impossible feat. I wouldn't even call it an agility feat either, or maneuverability, he's really not doing anything that drastic, he's literally kicking a dude in the face and shooting someone across from him, it ain't like he's doing a backflip and shooting down dudes.

From what I remember there was a thread deeming it usable since the anime is really faithful to the manga and don't contradict it in any way (is actually supported and have a logical sense with the things of the manga, like Yor poison).

The Yor poison is literally WHY I'm asking, because that's a anime exclusive line that doesn't exist in the manga. I'm fine with using the anime for things that are 1:1, but using it for exclusive anime content is a bit sus unless there's an author statement saying "yeah anime is cool lmao". I'm not really gonna argue it in this thread but I woudl like to say where it was accepted.

The penguin feat is more so to show how he can precisely predict their behavior, movement along with show how he can make every fish fall exactly where he want.

My dude, they're penguins. Predicting them is more an intellect feat and having a vast well of, uh, penguin knowledge ig, idk why he has that but he do.
They're aren't overly unpredictable animals, he's just going off where they stand in the pecking order and accommodating them properly. It's definitely good, but it ain't as good as if he did that with more complex not literal animals.

A lot of the feats were done with things of comparable speed to him,

Almost nothing in the verse is comparable to him in speed except Yor and Night.

John is also completely unable to do that sort of things which in fact show that at least in the pure manoeuvrability aspect John is less skilled than Loid.

Are you 100% positive? I'm pretty sure Wick can do a backflip. Though Loid def makes more use of flips and stuff in action.

I would say that I remember Loid using the stealth in combat, but right now I'm on phone so can't give scans, though considering how they are in New York isn't hard to imagine Loid using the surroundings, the crowd and disguises to his advantage. It show that his thinking ability is better than John though since he don't have feats of a similar nature or comparable level.

When? I can check myself, but where approximately?
Loid doesn't have disguises in his standard equipment, that's with prep.

Also that whole last bit is useless, they're fighting in a forest, Loid trying to disguise himself is a waste of time, and it being a forest kinda hampers his stealth anyway beyond just basic hiding behind trees.

But I will say, Loid being acrobatic isn't exactly a good advantage, he's acrobatic but it ain't like he's able to Spiderman or Gray Fox his way through gunfire. They're gonna be fighting with weapons for the most part, being able to do a cool flip isn't gonna help if you get mowed down by an automatic.
Your best argument thus far that I'd say might actually be crucial to the match, is Loid's LS and what would happen if they end up in CQC, because CQC is where acrobatics and LS matter, if they get into CQC I might lean towards Loid as he can grapple with Wick and will win such an exchange, if he gets him into a lock he's done for, but in a gunfight though I'm leaning toward Wick, even if just due to better weaponry.
In which case, how likely would it be for them to get in throwing hands before either of them get gunned down?

 

[Nierre]

Wick FRA

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Oh, just noticed the fight is in a forest. Then yeah, the stealth part can be discarded since that reduce the range of possibilities

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Though that said Loid still can take advantage of his acrobatics to climb the trees and attack from above.

Edit: The comments were send accidentally with a different timing which is why they aren't just one.

 

[Chariot190]

Idk, I'd rather try to figure out the more important part, how do we think this fight is gonna play out? As in, will they throw hands? And if they do when will they? If they ever do.

I think that effects how the match plays out tbh.

 

[Chariot190]

Though that said Loid still can take advantage of his acrobatics to climb the trees and attack from above.

attack from above

Unless you can fly or change your trajectory mid lunge, never, not in a million years do that against a dude with a gun who is just as fast as you.
Imagine that dog, except Loid aimed for the head.

 

[Rikimarox2]

John Wick FRA

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Unless you can fly or change your trajectory mid lunge, never, not in a million years do that against a dude with a gun who is just as fast as you.
Imagine that dog, except Loid aimed for the head.

I mean, the leaves and branches would make harder to aim to Loid from above do to obstructing his visibility, and since he Loid can also move between the trees with his acrobatics John would have a harder time following him.

Idk, I'd rather try to figure out the more important part, how do we think this fight is gonna play out? As in, will they throw hands? And if they do when will they? If they ever do.

I think that effects how the match plays out tbh.

Both seem to mix range with cqc in equal parts so I believe either thing is possible. They are also relatively close with a initial distance of 10 meters so engage in cqc isn't unlikely.

 

[Chariot190]

I mean, the leaves and branches would make harder to aim to Loid from above do to obstructing his visibility, and since he Loid can also move between the trees with his acrobatics John would have a harder time following him.

My brother, they're leaves, it's a forest not a jungle bush. And it's branches and leaves, 100$ says Wick has enough basic skill to be able to account for Loid's positioning despite very slight obstruction from things the bullets will just punch through anyway as if they aren't even there.

Both seem to mix range with cqc in equal parts so I believe either thing is possible. They are also relatively close with a initial distance of 10 meters so engage in cqc isn't unlikely.

10m is actually the golden gun distance, that's about how far a cop or what not is trained to be able to quickdraw and fire at an approaching man with a blade weapon. At that point we have to figure out if they're gonna keep at that distance, get close to CQC, or even extend the distance to make it harder for the foe to get close amidst the gunfire.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I mean, both have moments when they engaged in cqc despite have a 10 meters or more distance from their enemy.

 

[Chariot190]

That is true, but having moments where they do that, and doing it consistently two different things.
Especially when they can see they both have guns and weapons, how would they react to that? Would they try to outgun the other and bet on their own innate skill? Would they try to get close to attempt to disarm or take weapons out of the equation to be safe and make it HTH only?
I'm not sure, atm I think Loid has it in CQC due to LS and what not, especially as Wick's own melee style is detrimental to himself. But I do think at range Wick has a more versatile display of firearms mastery that'd let him edge out (Plus pretty sure he has armor piercing rounds).

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Weren't the armor piercing rounds something he only got when in the hotel fight in the third movie? You know, when the hotel guy went to war and opened his armory so John and the cool recepcionist could fight the ******* with the suits. Because in that case I don't believe they would really classify as his standard equipment.

 

[Chariot190]

When I said armor piercing, I meant more, can **** with and damage bullet proof stuff, given we see them do hefty damage to bullet proof material all the time, hell Wick's own feat atm is literally smashing a **** ton of bulletproof ballistics.

Wasn't talking about the big dick cal rounds he got there, tbh I completely forgot he even had those ngl.

 

[Cimafranca133]

John Wick FRA

Wick FRA

John Wick FRA.

Votes Counted:
John Wick: 6

Loid Forger: 4

Rick Astley: 0

Loid Forgering a new ass for John wick FRA

Idk who you're voting for tbh

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Idk who you're voting for tbh

He's voting for Loid.

 

[Cimafranca133]

Votes Counted:
John Wick: 6

Loid Forger: 4

Rick Astley: 0


Idk who you're voting for tbh

Loid Forgering a new ass for John wick FRA

Vote Counted then,
John Wick: 6

Loid Forger: 5

Rick Astley: 0

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Vote Counted then,
John Wick: 6

Loid Forger: 5

Rick Astley: 0

He's voting for Loid.

it was a pun guys. A terrible one to be honest

Forging means to create something. He’s gonna create a new ass for wick is what I’m saying.

forgering doesn’t exist but I did my best to make it sound like forging.

 

[Cimafranca133]

Vote Counted then,
John Wick: 6

Loid Forger: 5

Rick Astley: 0

Looks like it's a stalemate

 

[Cimafranca133]

Bump

 

[Cimafranca133]

Bump

 

[Reploidnoridomix]

i click in incon link to see what is that