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Introductio
In this thread, I would like to propose that the Joe Yabuki vs Ippo Makunouchi match be overturned and reevaluated. After reiterating the main caviats of the first fight, I will make three seperate arguments that highlight how Joe struggles against boxers who are his equals, specifically his fights against Carlos Rivera, Kim Yong-Bi, and Jose Mendoza.
Overview
So in the initially proposed fight, user Yojimbo1989 set these rules:
- Both are considered Featherweight boxers in terms of weight
- The fight is an infinite round boxing match with win by KO
- Neither fighter has knowledge of the other before the fight
- Both fighters are at their physical peak, meaning Joe was not punch drunk
Now, I have no problem with these rules, they fit the theme of the characters well and the Featherweight fits for Joe since he could have gone into that weight class if he wasn't determined to stay Bantamweight. The issue I have, however, is the logic that was used to give Joe the win. The main argument that swayed most people was Jimbo stating Joe is stronger, more durable, is more naturally talented, and has more stamina.
While our evidence shows that Ippo is stronger (270000 J vs 15000 J), therefore making him more durable, reacts faster (Transonic vs Subsonic), and an argument can be made that Joe and Ippo have comparable stamina, it is my firm belief that Joe is not as skilled as Ippo and he has great difficulty against boxers of his skill level, as my analysis of the three fights will show.
Before I move on, I apologize for the odd page listings for the fights, the source I had was not good at labeling proper chapters. I'll do my best to illustrate the page range for fights.
Joe Yabuki vs Carlos Rivera (Volume 12, Page 218 - Volume 13, Page 49 ; Volume 13, Page 164 - Volume 14, Page 55)
In this fight, which is one of two possibilities where Joe got punch drunk, Carlos and Joe show that they are equal in skill. In the first half, Joe and Carlos knock each down several times, with this fight ending in a double knockdown before Joe is disqualified due to Danpei. In the second part, while Joe gets hit and knocked down a lot more, they proved comparable. However, the fight turned into a street brawl as both completely abandoned the rules and just slugged it out. It ended with both passing out on the floor and the match resulted in a decision draw. To quote the Hox translation:
"...Ignoring the ref, the bell, the rules, and everything else, the two wild beasts leapt at each other in reckless abandon...the two silently slumped to the blood and sweat-stained floor." (Volume 14, Page 54-55)
This showed that Joe couldn't properly knock out someone on his level, even while throwing in kicks and dirty fighting. Sure, he lasted as long as Carlos did, but he got hit way more than Rivera and could not dodge as well as him.
Joe Yabuki vs Kim Yong-Bi (Volume 15, Page 236 - Volume 16, Page 122)
As the other possible origin of Joe's punch-drunkenness, Joe got off three combos in this fight, with a total of only 26 hits. In the early rounds, Joe could not land a single hit against the highly technical Kim since he just runs in fists flying and tries to slug his way to a quick victory. It's only after Kim's rhythm is thrown off when Joe is giving his dramatic speech about Rikishi that hits start to land. In addition, Kim was knocked out when he was because Joe's face started bleeding, triggering Kim's PTSD from the Korean War and rendering him a screaming mess (Volume 16, Page 120). If Kim wasn't terrified, Joe most likely wouldn't have been able to knock out Kim at all, or best case scenario, it would have taken several more rounds. As Ippo is faster and has a similar level of technical skill to Kim, the fight between the two would most likely go similarly.
Joe Yabuki vs Jose Mendoza (Volume 20, Page 24-255)
This fight has several points to show that Joe can't keep up with Ippo skill-wise. The only thing that it really shows is that Joe has massive stamina. However, since CTE (medical term for punch-drunk syndrome) causes mental dullness, there is the possibility that Joe couldn't properly feel the pain of being beaten. As this section is long, I will break it up with a numerical list.
1. Joe was only able to start landing punches in Round 4 for two reasons. The first was because Jose was surprised that Carlos Rivera (now mentally broken from head trauma) was in Joe's corner during the first half of the round. He kept looking at him and this messed with his dodging rhythm. He was able to dodge initially at the last second, but soon Joe used the distraction to land blows. Jose had recovered by the halfway point of the round. To quote Mendoza from the Hox translation:
"At first, the shock from seeing [Carlos] there kept subconsciously drawing my eyes toward him...it was different in the second half of that round." (Volume 20, Page 103-104)
2. The second reason was because blows from Jose blinded Joe's right eye. This caused Joe's punches to drift without his knowledge and they ultimately ruined Mendoza's minimum-effort dodging technique. Both Joe and Jose figured this out by the end of Round 6. To quote Joe from the Hox translation:
"...thanks to [my blind eye], my punches kept swerving to the side, which is how I managed to get all those hits on him...just a little before the round ended, Mendoza started attacking from my blind spot to my right." (Volume 20, Page 159)
Those two reasons, on top of Jose getting flustered about not being able to dodge, helped Joe hold his own, despite being punch drunk, early on. If Joe wasn't blinded and suffering from severe CTE, this wouldn't have happened until later in the match, if at all.
3. Part way through the fight, the manga follows Youko Shiraki, Joe's "fight manager" and one-sided lover, as she leaves the ring during Round 8 and is driven away while listening to some of the fight on the radio. She returns at the end of Round 12. We as an audience miss 4 rounds of the fight, with the radio only saying that Joe was getting beaten and downed at least twice during that time frame (Volume 20, Page 198; 200-201). We don't know how the fight went fully during that time, therefore we cannot assume Joe was dominating the fight. While we can't fully assume that Joe was completely losing either, the fact that Joe was losing Round 8 badly, the announcer on the radio describing a Mendoza domination, and Round 12 ending with Joe being smacked around, the unknown period most likely went similarly.
4. From Round 13-15, the fight seems to start going more in Joe's favor. However, this is because Joe was practically dead at this point. When we see Joe's face on Page 207 of Volume 20, he has no fire in his eyes and barely reacts to what happens to him; he most likely doesn't feel the pain anymore, which is why he can swing harder. His demeanor deeply disturbs Mendoza, to the point that he disregards the rules and tries to put Joe down like he's a monster from Hell (Volume 20, Page 229-233). To quote Jose from right before Round 15:
"Any other man who's taken that many punches from me...would be long crippled or dead by now...Joe Yabuki...must have already died long ago...Who am I now fighting with in the ring? Am I fighting with his phantom? Or...am I trapped in a nightmare...?" (Volume 20, Page 239-240)
We don't see Round 14, the context of the crowd's chatter seems to imply that Joe is making a comeback. To quote Hox again:
"What a guy! Even on his last legs, he's still packin' quite a punch!" (Volume 20, Page 237)
However, Joe still won't speak and has a blank expression on his face; he is on death's door. This is also why he starts using older tactics, like his no-guard style and his counters, the latter of which hadn't been used since Carlos Rivera (Volume 20, Page 247-250): he's going off pure instinct and is using what had been beaten into him for so long. While he does down Mendoza twice in this round, it's because he used counters, the nature of which has the opponent's own force hit them as well.
In conclusion, despite Joe getting beaten badly for most of the fight, his blind eye early on, getting in Jose's head, and the fact that being nearly dead let him fight at full strength allowed Joe to do as well as he did. While I fully acknowledge that Joe doing all this despite his punch-drunkenness and weakness from weight loss is a momentous feat unto itself, Ippo has taken similar beatings from opponents leagues in strength above anything Joe has faced and emerged victorious.
Conclusion
As shown in my analysis, Joe Yabuki has quite a hard time against someone who is his equal when it comes to boxing. With him failing to knock out Carlos Rivera, getting lucky with Kim Yong-Bi's PTSD triggering, and the multiple factors helping him survive Jose Mendoza, all are cases that show that Joe isn't as skilled as argued in the original fight.
These reasons, on top of the advantages Ippo has that were listed at the beginning, is why I believe Joe Yabuki vs Ippo Makunouchi match by Jimbo should be removed from both combatants' pages and be reevaluated.
In this thread, I would like to propose that the Joe Yabuki vs Ippo Makunouchi match be overturned and reevaluated. After reiterating the main caviats of the first fight, I will make three seperate arguments that highlight how Joe struggles against boxers who are his equals, specifically his fights against Carlos Rivera, Kim Yong-Bi, and Jose Mendoza.
Overview
So in the initially proposed fight, user Yojimbo1989 set these rules:
- Both are considered Featherweight boxers in terms of weight
- The fight is an infinite round boxing match with win by KO
- Neither fighter has knowledge of the other before the fight
- Both fighters are at their physical peak, meaning Joe was not punch drunk
Now, I have no problem with these rules, they fit the theme of the characters well and the Featherweight fits for Joe since he could have gone into that weight class if he wasn't determined to stay Bantamweight. The issue I have, however, is the logic that was used to give Joe the win. The main argument that swayed most people was Jimbo stating Joe is stronger, more durable, is more naturally talented, and has more stamina.
While our evidence shows that Ippo is stronger (270000 J vs 15000 J), therefore making him more durable, reacts faster (Transonic vs Subsonic), and an argument can be made that Joe and Ippo have comparable stamina, it is my firm belief that Joe is not as skilled as Ippo and he has great difficulty against boxers of his skill level, as my analysis of the three fights will show.
Before I move on, I apologize for the odd page listings for the fights, the source I had was not good at labeling proper chapters. I'll do my best to illustrate the page range for fights.
Joe Yabuki vs Carlos Rivera (Volume 12, Page 218 - Volume 13, Page 49 ; Volume 13, Page 164 - Volume 14, Page 55)
In this fight, which is one of two possibilities where Joe got punch drunk, Carlos and Joe show that they are equal in skill. In the first half, Joe and Carlos knock each down several times, with this fight ending in a double knockdown before Joe is disqualified due to Danpei. In the second part, while Joe gets hit and knocked down a lot more, they proved comparable. However, the fight turned into a street brawl as both completely abandoned the rules and just slugged it out. It ended with both passing out on the floor and the match resulted in a decision draw. To quote the Hox translation:
"...Ignoring the ref, the bell, the rules, and everything else, the two wild beasts leapt at each other in reckless abandon...the two silently slumped to the blood and sweat-stained floor." (Volume 14, Page 54-55)
This showed that Joe couldn't properly knock out someone on his level, even while throwing in kicks and dirty fighting. Sure, he lasted as long as Carlos did, but he got hit way more than Rivera and could not dodge as well as him.
Joe Yabuki vs Kim Yong-Bi (Volume 15, Page 236 - Volume 16, Page 122)
As the other possible origin of Joe's punch-drunkenness, Joe got off three combos in this fight, with a total of only 26 hits. In the early rounds, Joe could not land a single hit against the highly technical Kim since he just runs in fists flying and tries to slug his way to a quick victory. It's only after Kim's rhythm is thrown off when Joe is giving his dramatic speech about Rikishi that hits start to land. In addition, Kim was knocked out when he was because Joe's face started bleeding, triggering Kim's PTSD from the Korean War and rendering him a screaming mess (Volume 16, Page 120). If Kim wasn't terrified, Joe most likely wouldn't have been able to knock out Kim at all, or best case scenario, it would have taken several more rounds. As Ippo is faster and has a similar level of technical skill to Kim, the fight between the two would most likely go similarly.
Joe Yabuki vs Jose Mendoza (Volume 20, Page 24-255)
This fight has several points to show that Joe can't keep up with Ippo skill-wise. The only thing that it really shows is that Joe has massive stamina. However, since CTE (medical term for punch-drunk syndrome) causes mental dullness, there is the possibility that Joe couldn't properly feel the pain of being beaten. As this section is long, I will break it up with a numerical list.
1. Joe was only able to start landing punches in Round 4 for two reasons. The first was because Jose was surprised that Carlos Rivera (now mentally broken from head trauma) was in Joe's corner during the first half of the round. He kept looking at him and this messed with his dodging rhythm. He was able to dodge initially at the last second, but soon Joe used the distraction to land blows. Jose had recovered by the halfway point of the round. To quote Mendoza from the Hox translation:
"At first, the shock from seeing [Carlos] there kept subconsciously drawing my eyes toward him...it was different in the second half of that round." (Volume 20, Page 103-104)
2. The second reason was because blows from Jose blinded Joe's right eye. This caused Joe's punches to drift without his knowledge and they ultimately ruined Mendoza's minimum-effort dodging technique. Both Joe and Jose figured this out by the end of Round 6. To quote Joe from the Hox translation:
"...thanks to [my blind eye], my punches kept swerving to the side, which is how I managed to get all those hits on him...just a little before the round ended, Mendoza started attacking from my blind spot to my right." (Volume 20, Page 159)
Those two reasons, on top of Jose getting flustered about not being able to dodge, helped Joe hold his own, despite being punch drunk, early on. If Joe wasn't blinded and suffering from severe CTE, this wouldn't have happened until later in the match, if at all.
3. Part way through the fight, the manga follows Youko Shiraki, Joe's "fight manager" and one-sided lover, as she leaves the ring during Round 8 and is driven away while listening to some of the fight on the radio. She returns at the end of Round 12. We as an audience miss 4 rounds of the fight, with the radio only saying that Joe was getting beaten and downed at least twice during that time frame (Volume 20, Page 198; 200-201). We don't know how the fight went fully during that time, therefore we cannot assume Joe was dominating the fight. While we can't fully assume that Joe was completely losing either, the fact that Joe was losing Round 8 badly, the announcer on the radio describing a Mendoza domination, and Round 12 ending with Joe being smacked around, the unknown period most likely went similarly.
4. From Round 13-15, the fight seems to start going more in Joe's favor. However, this is because Joe was practically dead at this point. When we see Joe's face on Page 207 of Volume 20, he has no fire in his eyes and barely reacts to what happens to him; he most likely doesn't feel the pain anymore, which is why he can swing harder. His demeanor deeply disturbs Mendoza, to the point that he disregards the rules and tries to put Joe down like he's a monster from Hell (Volume 20, Page 229-233). To quote Jose from right before Round 15:
"Any other man who's taken that many punches from me...would be long crippled or dead by now...Joe Yabuki...must have already died long ago...Who am I now fighting with in the ring? Am I fighting with his phantom? Or...am I trapped in a nightmare...?" (Volume 20, Page 239-240)
We don't see Round 14, the context of the crowd's chatter seems to imply that Joe is making a comeback. To quote Hox again:
"What a guy! Even on his last legs, he's still packin' quite a punch!" (Volume 20, Page 237)
However, Joe still won't speak and has a blank expression on his face; he is on death's door. This is also why he starts using older tactics, like his no-guard style and his counters, the latter of which hadn't been used since Carlos Rivera (Volume 20, Page 247-250): he's going off pure instinct and is using what had been beaten into him for so long. While he does down Mendoza twice in this round, it's because he used counters, the nature of which has the opponent's own force hit them as well.
In conclusion, despite Joe getting beaten badly for most of the fight, his blind eye early on, getting in Jose's head, and the fact that being nearly dead let him fight at full strength allowed Joe to do as well as he did. While I fully acknowledge that Joe doing all this despite his punch-drunkenness and weakness from weight loss is a momentous feat unto itself, Ippo has taken similar beatings from opponents leagues in strength above anything Joe has faced and emerged victorious.
Conclusion
As shown in my analysis, Joe Yabuki has quite a hard time against someone who is his equal when it comes to boxing. With him failing to knock out Carlos Rivera, getting lucky with Kim Yong-Bi's PTSD triggering, and the multiple factors helping him survive Jose Mendoza, all are cases that show that Joe isn't as skilled as argued in the original fight.
These reasons, on top of the advantages Ippo has that were listed at the beginning, is why I believe Joe Yabuki vs Ippo Makunouchi match by Jimbo should be removed from both combatants' pages and be reevaluated.
