JJK Mid Tiers Possible Downgrade

[Arkenis]

So for some time I've been wondering why we have the mid tiers rated as 8-B+, characters like Maki (with pc), Nanami, or a host of others like Naoya, Naobito, Ogi, Mei Mei, etc.

The only 8-B+ calc on page is this, it's Mahito's slam of Yuji. This is Mahito in his ISB transformation, a form not even Yuji could harm without BF. Given this is the only 8-B+ calc, people should not scale to it regularly.

Next is Mahito's Body Repel which is 8-B, almost 8-B+, the thing is this calc is when Mahito unlocked 120% of his potential, and if we look at previous Body Repels we can see a clear difference in quantity of the transfigured humans used compared to the calced one.

What these characters should scale to is this FB calc. For those with Black Flash, I think a likely rating or outright should be 8-B+ with it.

A slight change but I see nothing for the 8-B+ rating to most of these characters.
Please don't let this go on for 5 pages

Spoiler: Changes

Basically we are just removing the + next to these characters and scaling them to FB calc.

Choso: City Block level, City Block level+ with Flowing Red Scale, higher with Flowing Red Scale: Stack, even higher with other Blood Manipulation techniques

 

[Giannysmag]

Well it's not so much Mahito perfoming the feat that the mid tiers scale to but rather Yuji tanking the slam with no visible damage and a lot of people scale to this version of Yuji.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

The scaling isn't from Mahito performing the crater feat, but rather Yuji being completely unaffected by it

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Well it's not so much Mahito perfoming the feat that the mid tiers scale to but rather Yuji tanking the slam with no visible damage and a lot of people scale to this version of Yuji.

Oh word?

 

[Arkenis]

Well it's not so much Mahito perfoming the feat that the mid tiers scale to but rather Yuji tanking the slam with no visible damage and a lot of people scale to this version of Yuji.

Why would they scale to 120% Yuji?

 

[SunDaGamer]

The thing is, Yuji didn't take any noticeable damage from Instant Spirit Body Mahito slamming him, all that happened was that his leg of all things started twitching and even then that was from the result of all the damage he took from Mahito when he jumped back into the fight after Nitta halted his previous injuries. In comparison, Base form Mahito has done more damage to Yuji and it's not like ISBDK Mahito's AP is relative to Yuji's durability when we're told Mahito would've torn Yuji to shreds if Yuji missed his Black Flash hence why Yuji is scaled to the calc and Mahito gets to have a x3 multiplier applied to his own feat.

 

[Arkenis]

In comparison, Base form Mahito has done more damage to Yuji

This is prior to unlocking 120% of their potential.

Yuji didn't take any noticeable damage from Instant Spirit Body Mahito slamming him,

Yeah this is fine, I think Yuji should scale, but I don't see why others scale to 120% Yuji. Yuji's already known as a strong character and he shows the greater durability so saying others scale in ap or durability shouldn't be done.

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Man JJK has the worst luck on this wiki.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

This is prior to unlocking 120% of their potential.


Yeah this is fine, I think Yuji should scale, but I don't see why others scale to 120% Yuji. Yuji's already known as a strong character and he shows the greater durability so saying others scale in ap or durability shouldn't be done.

Who are the characters scaled to this feat currently?

 

[JnSteHar002]

Man JJK has the worst luck on this wiki.

True that

 

[Arkenis]

Who are the characters scaled to this feat currently?

Mei Mei, Nanami, Naobito, Dagon, Jogo, Hanami, etc. Just about everyone with a 8-B rating is 8-B+ yet the only calc is the Mahito one.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Mei Mei, Nanami, Naobito, Dagon, Jogo, Hanami, etc. Just about everyone with a 8-B rating is 8-B+ yet the only calc is the Mahito one.

I kind of agree with you about everyone except Jogo. He should scale to Mahito's feats. Kenjaku wanted to absorb him despite already seeing Mahito's growth and absorbing him. Kenny also states that Jogo is at an 8-9 finger level, generously. Gojo states that Jogo is stronger than 3-finger Sukuna, and 15-finger Sukuna also acknowledged Jogo.
Most importantly Shinjuku Showdown Kusakabe implied most of them are is weaker than Jogo.

Regarding others scaling to Yuji's durability
When Kenjaku absorbed Mahito, it was close to midnight. Yuji was already worn down, and he also took attacks from Kenjaku. Choso was also stated to be still suffering from his fight with Yuji. Later on, Choso and Yuji continued hunting curses released by Kenjaku. They likely didn’t get any rest because of that. Choso also mentioned that Yuji hadn’t fully recovered. After killing and reviving Yuji, Yuta set up a campfire, background suggests it was still nighttime. I'm saying this because it seems not much time passed after Kenny ran away, and Yuji and Choso were likely fighting throughout the night until Naoya arrived.

Fresh out of the fight, Naoya comes and hits Yuji’s nose, I guess that’s all. There are no other feats for him to scale to Yuji. Not to mention, the same Naoya was having trouble bypassing the durability of the tired version of Choso and had to use a cursed tool. A fully healthy Choso stated that Yuji’s three punches were doing significant damage to him. Scaling Naoya to Yuji will just create circular scaling with Choso.

Naoya was the strongest Zen’in at the time by overall feats, which puts Ogi below him. Idk how TF Ogi even got 8-B+ rating

Overall, scaling Naoya to the Black Flash amped Yuji doesn’t make sense. The same goes for others who scale below Naoya, like Ogi scaling to Yuji.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Fresh out of the fight, Naoya comes and hits Yuji’s nose, I guess that’s all. There are no other feats for him to scale to Yuji. Not to mention, the same Naoya was having trouble bypassing the durability of the tired version of Choso and had to use a cursed tool. A fully healthy Choso stated that Yuji’s three punches were doing significant damage to him. Scaling Naoya to Yuji will just create circular scaling with Choso.

Naoya's base AP and his AP when before he uses Projection Sorcery enough to continuously build up to his top speed shouldn't be all that high, 3 direct hits from Yuji injured Choso pretty badly while Naoya thinks Choso is tough. Naoya's AP should only get significantly higher when he does start to continuously use Projection Sorcery instead of using it in short bursts like he did against Yuji and Choso which is shown by him being able to hurt Maki and Maki being ready to have her ribs broken by a head-on collision with Naoya at top speed.

As for Choso's scaling, when he was using regular Flowing Red Scale, he could harm Yuji with his fists but his melee was backed up by his other Blood Manipulation techniques which allowed him to get easy hits on Yuji so when the fight became purely hand-to-hand, Yuji was keeping Choso on the back foot and clashing evenly even with Choso using FSR: Stacked.

Choso's base AP should be 8-B, FSR could get an at most rating to scale to Yuji's durability (since we know his AP with FSR: Stacked is even with Yuji, he only managed to knock out Yuji with a direct punch because of his hardened blood), Choso's other Blood Manipulation techniques are cracked though since they can consistently tear apart Yuji's body and he severely harmed Naoya with Supernova.

 

[Arkenis]

Naoya's base AP and his AP when before he uses Projection Sorcery enough to continuously build up to his top speed shouldn't be all that high,

You mean should right? From base to top speed the confidence is barely harming Yuji and Choso to thinking he'd punch right through Maki. It's definitely hard to tell since he's not really done much but I see no reason it shouldn't be a high difference when the main thing is that he gains more KE from upping it.

Choso's base AP should be 8-B, FSR could get an at most rating to scale to Yuji's durability (since we know his AP with FSR: Stacked is even with Yuji, he only managed to knock out Yuji with a direct punch because of his hardened blood), Choso's other Blood Manipulation techniques are cracked though since they can consistently tear apart Yuji's body and he severely harmed Naoya with Supernova.

At most seems fine. Though I still think 120% was meant to be something significant for the trio in their fight. And Choso's BM techs are good because a lot of them pierce or slice. PB, couldn't even pierce Yuji's arm and would take some time to do so.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I'll address sun arguments tomorrow if this thread hasn't concluded by then currently busy IRL with work

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Naoya's base AP and his AP when before he uses Projection Sorcery enough to continuously build up to his top speed shouldn't be all that high, 3 direct hits from Yuji injured Choso pretty badly while Naoya thinks Choso is tough.

Durability can be much higher than striking strength in some cases. Naoya outright didn’t have the striking strength to damage a weakened Choso after his long battle throughout the night, while even the early version of Yuji was able to damage full healthy Choso without using any Cursed Technique. Naoya was struggling with his protection sorcery and striking strength.

Naoya's AP should only get significantly higher when he does start to continuously use Projection Sorcery instead of using it in short bursts like he did against Yuji and Choso which is shown by him being able to hurt Maki and Maki being ready to have her ribs broken by a head-on collision with Naoya at top speed.

I'm not sure why Imgur isn't working on my end, but I understand which scene you're referring to. However, Maki was already injured by Ogi. She didn’t have any rest or time to regenerate her injuries before fighting Naoya.Regarding the self-proclaimed 'top speed' statement made by Naoya, where he could blitz straight through Choso and Maki, I’m not sure how accurate it is because it could just be self-confidence. There’s also the possibility that he used a binding vow, like he did in his Cursed Womb form.I do agree that Base Naoya is weaker than Top Speed Naoya, but it’s unknown how much damage he could have done at top speed to either Choso or Maki. Maki punched through Naoya while he was at top speed. He got knocked down to the ground, couldn’t even stand up, and took so much damage that Maki's mom was able to kill him.

As for Choso's scaling, when he was using regular Flowing Red Scale, he could harm Yuji with his fists but his melee was backed up by his other Blood Manipulation techniques which allowed him to get easy hits on Yuji so when the fight became purely hand-to-hand, Yuji was keeping Choso on the back foot and clashing evenly even with Choso using FSR: Stacked.

I understand that Choso can increase his stats, but Yuji can’t increase his stats as much as Choso. At the beginning of the arc, Yuji was holding his own against FRS Choso with just his fixed AP and durability. Yuji got stronger by fighting Mahito and landing Black Flashes. Kenjaku also released the binding vow and strengthened the vessels at the end of the arc. So, after the Mahito fight, Yuji should be much stronger than he was at the beginning of the arc.

The whole point @Arkenis is trying to make is
End of that arc Yuji > Post Black flash amps Yuji > Beginning of the Arc Yuji.

No one has feats for damaging Yuji post Black flash and End of the arc. (Except Yuta and Hakari)

Choso's base AP should be 8-B, FSR could get an at most rating to scale to Yuji's durability (since we know his AP with FSR: Stacked is even with Yuji, he only managed to knock out Yuji with a direct punch because of his hardened blood), Choso's other Blood Manipulation techniques are cracked though since they can consistently tear apart Yuji's body and he severely harmed Naoya with Supernova.

You know Yuji after the Mahito fight is stronger than Yuji before the Mahito fight. Choso makes it clear that Yuji has gotten stronger compared to when they previously fought while hunting curses after Kenjaku left. So, I don’t think it’s fair to scale Yuji at the end of the Shibuya Incident arc to Yuji at the beginning of the arc. Choso was taking much more damage from Yuji at the beginning of the arc.

The problem here is Choso harmed Beginning of the arc Yuji. He has no scaling to version of Yuji with post Black flash amps.

---

Summary of what I am trying to say

End of the arc Yuji > Black Flash amped Yuji > Beginning of the arc Yuji ~ FRSS Choso.

Likely Naoya Top speed attack > Weakened FRS Choso Durability > Naoya SS with Projection Sorcery.

So it doesn't make sense to scale FRS Choso to Black Flash amped Yuji, when at the beginning of the arc, Yuji was already strong enough to damage him considerably even in FRSS.

Choso was also knocked down by Yuta instantly and easily, while Yuta struggled more against Yuji. [I know Yuta was holding back, don’t get me wrong. I’m just comparing how Yuta did against Yuji and Choso.] Yuji was also able to outrun Yuta, take a kick from him, and break his katana. Yuta later stated that Yuji was mentally nerfing himself, so he was holding back.

So unless someone has feats of damaging post-Black Flash amped Yuji, we shouldn't scale others to that level.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Durability can be much higher than striking strength in some cases. Naoya outright didn’t have the striking strength to damage a weakened Choso after his long battle throughout the night, while even the early version of Yuji was able to damage full healthy Choso without using any Cursed Technique. Naoya was struggling with his protection sorcery and striking strength.

What does durability and SS being different have to do with this. Naoya when he isn't continuously maintaining Projection Sorcery thinks Choso's durability is tough therefore my point was Naoya's AP w/o maintaining speed over a longer period < Shibuya Yuji's AP

I'm not sure why Imgur isn't working on my end, but I understand which scene you're referring to. However, Maki was already injured by Ogi. She didn’t have any rest or time to regenerate her injuries before fighting Naoya.Regarding the self-proclaimed 'top speed' statement made by Naoya, where he could blitz straight through Choso and Maki, I’m not sure how accurate it is because it could just be self-confidence. There’s also the possibility that he used a binding vow, like he did in his Cursed Womb form.I do agree that Base Naoya is weaker than Top Speed Naoya, but it’s unknown how much damage he could have done at top speed to either Choso or Maki. Maki punched through Naoya while he was at top speed. He got knocked down to the ground, couldn’t even stand up, and took so much damage that Maki's mom was able to kill him.

Maki had healed up to the point where her intestines were no longer dangling and her gaping wound was sealed and stopped bleeding but she hadn't recovered from the blood loss yet, in which case the integrity of her bones themselves shouldn't change. Why is there any doubt toward Naoya being able to significantly harm Choso when hitting his top speed when we can see Naoya injuring Maki's face and causing it to bleed with a strike toward the end of their fight several movements before he hit his top speed.

The idea Naoya used a binding vow has no basis at all, whenever a binding vow is in play during a fight Gege always makes sure it's mentioned or makes it obvious whether it's a long-term contract like with Mechamaru and Mahito, regularly used like Nanami's Overtime, a spur-of-the-moment one that Hakari used, the conditions apart of a Domain like Higuruma's or literally everytime Sukuna used one in Shinjuku. Cursed Spirit Naoya's binding vow had nothing to do with directly making him move faster or strike harder either, all it did was increase his durability when he curls up so he could handle Mach 3 speed at the exchange that he wouldn't be as durable when he isn't curled up. Maki punching Naoya isn't really a point against him, Naoya's face basically rammed into Maki's fist at top speed and Maki had her own strength behind that punch on top of that, it's not like it was only the force behind Maki's punch that knocked him out.

I understand that Choso can increase his stats, but Yuji can’t increase his stats as much as Choso. At the beginning of the arc, Yuji was holding his own against FRS Choso with just his fixed AP and durability. Yuji got stronger by fighting Mahito and landing Black Flashes. Kenjaku also released the binding vow and strengthened the vessels at the end of the arc. So, after the Mahito fight, Yuji should be much stronger than he was at the beginning of the arc.

The whole point @Arkenis is trying to make is
End of that arc Yuji > Post Black flash amps Yuji > Beginning of the Arc Yuji.

No one has feats for damaging Yuji post Black flash and End of the arc. (Except Yuta and Hakari)
You know Yuji after the Mahito fight is stronger than Yuji before the Mahito fight. Choso makes it clear that Yuji has gotten stronger compared to when they previously fought while hunting curses after Kenjaku left. So, I don’t think it’s fair to scale Yuji at the end of the Shibuya Incident arc to Yuji at the beginning of the arc. Choso was taking much more damage from Yuji at the beginning of the arc.

The problem here is Choso harmed Beginning of the arc Yuji. He has no scaling to version of Yuji with post Black flash amps.

Yuji's strength post-Shibuya should be completely irrelevant to this thread not sure why that keeps being brought up when Yuji's profile is outdated and being worked on currently and we would already scale Yuji higher for being Grade 1 Sorcerer level w/o any cursed energy amp during the Culling Game thanks to Kenjaku and Choso notes Yuji's growth once Yuji actually had the chance to recover a bit after Shibuya. Nitta's treatment on Yuji did nothing to actually heal the whole Black Flash Yuji took head-on or Mahito's beatdown on him and we know your physical condition can make a big difference considering how Full Power Sukuna went from getting mopped up by Kashimo to turning the match into a stomp once he healed his body despite his CE Output still being hampered from fighting Gojo, even with the amp Yuji may have gotten from Black Flash, Yuji was still essentially on 20 HP.

I'd also wager Kenjaku strengthening every vessel had a bigger role in Yuji's growth than the Black Flashes considering we rate Yuji's striking power as being comparable to Nanami based on Ino's statement (don't have much of a reason to doubt Ino's credibility considering how much Ino knows about Nanami, hell, Ino was literally the dude interviewing Nanami when we first learn about consecutive Black Flashes. There's also the fact that Nanami is only ever at 80-90% while he's working as a sorcerer which is likely Ino's point of reference since that's the state Nanami would be in whenever him and Ino would be working together) which means Yuji with Cursed Energy at the start of Shibuya is comparable to a Grade 1 Sorcerer and then we have Culling Game Yuji who had his CE confiscated amazing Higuruma, who's on the level of a Grade 1 Sorcerer, with his physical strength, Black Flashes would have nothing to do with Cursed Energy-less strength and even if they somehow did then the best multiplier we could pull would be a measly x1.2 one (and if it's anything to go by, Choso rates Yuji's newfound physical strength separately from his newfound skill with Cursed Energy)

So it doesn't make sense to scale FRS Choso to Black Flash amped Yuji, when at the beginning of the arc, Yuji was already strong enough to damage him considerably even in FRSS.

Flowing Red Scale is blood doping which enhances your strength, speed and endurance but not your physical durability so Yuji damaging Choso while Choso is using FRS: S doesn't really mean anything for scaling Choso's AP

Choso was also knocked down by Yuta instantly and easily, while Yuta struggled more against Yuji. [I know Yuta was holding back, don’t get me wrong. I’m just comparing how Yuta did against Yuji and Choso.] Yuji was also able to outrun Yuta, take a kick from him, and break his katana. Yuta later stated that Yuji was mentally nerfing himself, so he was holding back.

Post-Shibuya Yuji is entirely irrelevant to this, we already know Post-Shibuya Yuji's raw physicals without CE are in league with a Grade 1 Sorcerer using CE which is what Shibuya Yuji using CE was relative to

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

W profile

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

What does durability and SS being different have to do with this. Naoya when he isn't continuously maintaining Projection Sorcery thinks Choso's durability is tough therefore my point was Naoya's AP w/o maintaining speed over a longer period < Shibuya Yuji's AP


Maki had healed up to the point where her intestines were no longer dangling and her gaping wound was sealed and stopped bleeding but she hadn't recovered from the blood loss yet, in which case the integrity of her bones themselves shouldn't change. Why is there any doubt toward Naoya being able to significantly harm Choso when hitting his top speed when we can see Naoya injuring Maki's face and causing it to bleed with a strike toward the end of their fight several movements before he hit his top speed.

The idea Naoya used a binding vow has no basis at all, whenever a binding vow is in play during a fight Gege always makes sure it's mentioned or makes it obvious whether it's a long-term contract like with Mechamaru and Mahito, regularly used like Nanami's Overtime, a spur-of-the-moment one that Hakari used, the conditions apart of a Domain like Higuruma's or literally everytime Sukuna used one in Shinjuku. Cursed Spirit Naoya's binding vow had nothing to do with directly making him move faster or strike harder either, all it did was increase his durability when he curls up so he could handle Mach 3 speed at the exchange that he wouldn't be as durable when he isn't curled up. Maki punching Naoya isn't really a point against him, Naoya's face basically rammed into Maki's fist at top speed and Maki had her own strength behind that punch on top of that, it's not like it was only the force behind Maki's punch that knocked him out.


Yuji's strength post-Shibuya should be completely irrelevant to this thread not sure why that keeps being brought up when Yuji's profile is outdated and being worked on currently and we would already scale Yuji higher for being Grade 1 Sorcerer level w/o any cursed energy amp during the Culling Game thanks to Kenjaku and Choso notes Yuji's growth once Yuji actually had the chance to recover a bit after Shibuya. Nitta's treatment on Yuji did nothing to actually heal the whole Black Flash Yuji took head-on or Mahito's beatdown on him and we know your physical condition can make a big difference considering how Full Power Sukuna went from getting mopped up by Kashimo to turning the match into a stomp once he healed his body despite his CE Output still being hampered from fighting Gojo, even with the amp Yuji may have gotten from Black Flash, Yuji was still essentially on 20 HP.

I'd also wager Kenjaku strengthening every vessel had a bigger role in Yuji's growth than the Black Flashes considering we rate Yuji's striking power as being comparable to Nanami based on Ino's statement (don't have much of a reason to doubt Ino's credibility considering how much Ino knows about Nanami, hell, Ino was literally the dude interviewing Nanami when we first learn about consecutive Black Flashes. There's also the fact that Nanami is only ever at 80-90% while he's working as a sorcerer which is likely Ino's point of reference since that's the state Nanami would be in whenever him and Ino would be working together) which means Yuji with Cursed Energy at the start of Shibuya is comparable to a Grade 1 Sorcerer and then we have Culling Game Yuji who had his CE confiscated amazing Higuruma, who's on the level of a Grade 1 Sorcerer, with his physical strength, Black Flashes would have nothing to do with Cursed Energy-less strength and even if they somehow did then the best multiplier we could pull would be a measly x1.2 one (and if it's anything to go by, Choso rates Yuji's newfound physical strength separately from his newfound skill with Cursed Energy)


Flowing Red Scale is blood doping which enhances your strength, speed and endurance but not your physical durability so Yuji damaging Choso while Choso is using FRS: S doesn't really mean anything for scaling Choso's AP


Post-Shibuya Yuji is entirely irrelevant to this, we already know Post-Shibuya Yuji's raw physicals without CE are in league with a Grade 1 Sorcerer using CE which is what Shibuya Yuji using CE was relative to

Then my bad I was under the impression of you are arguing that we scale characters to post Shibuya Yuji. If that's not the case then I agree with you.

Regarding downscaling wasn't Yuji was amped by 2BF when Mahito slammed him? I agree with Choso downscaling from that (atmost rating may be)and Nanami 80-90% being equal to Beginning of Shibuya incident arc Yuji.

 

[Arkenis]

Bump

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Bump

unlucky of you

if only more people saw this thread.

 

[Arkenis]

unlucky of you

if only more people saw this thread.

It was unnoticed, one could say.

 

[Yasuda_144]

Re: the Nanami scaling, I personally feel Yuji should be comparable to 110-120% Nanami, not his base 80-90% state. Main reason for that being that as far back as Vs Mahito when he was much weaker he was still capable of damaging Mahito, who in turn can take regular attacks from base Nanami without needing to regenerate or being visibly overpowered. Not to mention that right at the moment the statement was made, Nanami would have been in his Overtime state (unless he deliberately decided to start his workday later than the usual 10 PM, which would be dumb as hell of him given he'd be nerfing himself for what he knew was going to be a grueling mission).

Also, would it be acceptable to just downscale people who scale to pre-Black Flash Shibuya Yuji to 1.2 times less than the 58.4 Tons feat? "120% potential" is somewhat vague as a statement but for somebody like Yuji it's probably referring primarily to raw Cursed Energy output.

 

[Arkenis]

bump

 

[GrayCraft_Dragon]

Simple enough, agree